a question about Wing Chun Kuen

[lanterna]

Ronny,

Whet do you mean by transformation step??

[Ronny]

By "transformational step" I mean all the necessary steps between basic training (stances, moving-in-stances, single patterns) and free sparring. In other words the whole spectrum and different levels of pre-arranged-sparring! Without this you will never learn how to use Kung Fu in free-sparring or in a real fight.

[Xia]

I'm afraid this is another case of ignorance showing through. If the skill of "sensing" was reliant on physical contact with your opponent's outstretched arm, then it would really be of extremely little use. I though you were experienced in pushing hands??

Andrew

No - that's not right, Andrew. The phrase is *thinking skin* - kind of a disturbing image, don't you think? I do! Yes, it is done through physical contact - of course - what else? *Reading* an oppnent, i.e. looking at him and perceiving his movments is maybe what you mean? Also, experience can give you a good feeling for what a person is going to do. But yes, Bagua monk is right, of course - the sensitivity is a physical thing.

As for the subject - train in what you can! Learn, absorb - takes a lot of looking to find a pearl!

X

[Damian Kissey]

Natural Supernatural , Physical and Non physical

But yes, Bagua monk is right, of course - the sensitivity is a physical thing.

X

An alive you is a physical thing plus something , a dead you is only a physical thing .

That "plus something" is what Sifu Andrew is implying about .

[Baguamonk1]

Either way you look at it, it could lead to the same thing. A person can learn to be sensitive to physical motion and contact, and never know a damn thing about chi. Wether its there or not, and wether its actually affecting the situation is not yet proven. But it certainly is there, and we are all taught to be mindful of it.

And I never said "sensing" was the skill of trapping and outstretched arm. I am merely pointing out that WC dudes love to show demo's/applications against a huge-telegraphed outstretched arm, and in which the opponent allows the defender to hit him like 10000 times and barely move.

[Ronny]

Either way you look at it, it could lead to the same thing. A person can learn to be sensitive to physical motion and contact, and never know a damn thing about chi. Wether its there or not, and wether its actually affecting the situation is not yet proven. But it certainly is there, and we are all taught to be mindful of it.

But with the knowing and more important with the actual perceiving of Chi everything will go better, easier and faster!

[Baguamonk1]

Something I agree with ^.

[Max E Moose]

Ng Moi, The Buddhist nun from the Shaolin Temple and inventor of Wing Chun would have practiced qi gong daily, so to say that wing chun does not make use of this vital skill just because some modern teachers ignore it is simply wrong.
About 300 years ago Ng Moi devised a fighting system specifically to exploit the flaws inherent in the Shaolin styles of kung fu (All fighting arts have flaws) and it works beautifully.
I could write reams about this but I think I've made my point.

Universal energies to you all and may peace and harmony fill your lives, with forgiveness and wisdom as your guides.

[George]

Hi Max,

Welcome to the forum.

Ng Moi, The Buddhist nun from the Shaolin Temple and inventor of Wing Chun...

About 300 years ago Ng Moi devised a fighting system specifically to exploit the flaws inherent in the Shaolin styles of kung fu (All fighting arts have flaws) and it works beautifully.

This is not correct.

Wing Chun was actually developed by Ng Moi's desciple, Yim Wing Chun, through the process of simplification of Kungfu techiques. Neither Ng Moi, nor Yim Wing Chun lived in the Shaolin Temple.

[Max E Moose]

Ng Moi's attendance at the Shaolin Temple may be a moot point as I have heard different but if you want to pick holes in the chronology of Wing chun then remember that there would be no Lim Wing Chun without Ng Moi, all masters should bring something new to a style be it something minor or major, or it won't evolve, will become outdated and will simply get left behind.
I have the greatest admiration and respect for Sifu Wong Kiew Kit, he has inspired me greatly and taught me much and I'm sure he would agree with me thus far.
But this is all missing the point that I tried to put across so please accept my apologies for not being clearer, Re fighting styles, Shaolin Wahnam is not the best there is, wing chun was devised to defeat it, and it does, period.

[Maxime]

I have the greatest admiration and respect for Sifu Wong Kiew Kit, he has inspired me greatly and taught me much and I'm sure he would agree with me thus far.

This is certainly something you can't be sure thus far.

But this is all missing the point that I tried to put across so please accept my apologies for not being clearer, Re fighting styles, Shaolin Wahnam is not the best there is, wing chun was devised to defeat it, and it does, period.

If I understand clearly, you have learnt much from Sifu Wong but without learning from him or any Wahnam instructor, you have not practiced Shaolin Wahnam (Southern Shaolin) but you know that Wing Chun can defeat it.

You are stating that Shaolin Wahnam is not the best while nobody has stated Shaolin Wahnam was the best, and you are tacitely bringing the name of Wing Chun against Wahnam (when we have great respect here for Wing Chun, not to mention that Sifu Wong has practiced this style also).

But to me the following is amusing: you are giving your apologies for not being clearer enough in the fact that you are judging Shaolin Wahnam.

Or maybe I have misread your last sentences.

Best,

[Max E Moose]

No, alot of applications taught are against an outstretched arm. Someone punches you from far away, sticks his arm out for a bit, allows you to move in, trap his arm, and chain punch him 1000000 times, elbow, knee while the guy just stands there and takes it. This is common in Wing Chung demo's.

And push hands is not real fighting to begin with, I was not discussing chi sau. I should of put it in another paragraph. You boys just jump on every opportunity you see don't you? I admit it already, Shaolin Wahnam is superior to everything, and anyone who disagrees is ignorant.

You see Maxime, someone thinks it is the best. but there is no 'best', they all have flaws as well as strengths. I am not trying to disrespect Shaolin Wahnam only I wanted to put forward my opinion just like everyone else.

There is much about me that I wish to keep private so all I will say is that in the 25 years that I have been involed in Martial arts and Oriental Medicine I have seen plenty and learned much .

[Antonius]

25 years in the martial arts, and you still think that style, not gong, decides a fight?

[Charles David]

Dear Mr Moose,

I think that you misunderstood Mr Baguamonk when he wrote:

I admit it already, Shaolin Wahnam is superior to everything, and anyone who disagrees is ignorant.

As you write:

You see Maxime, someone thinks it is the best.

In fact, Baguamonk was writing sarcastically. He has been a very vocal critic of our school, without (to my knowledge) ever having crossed hands, or even met with any of us.

With All,

[George]

Max,

Ng Moi's attendance at the Shaolin Temple may be a moot point as I have heard

Not really - she was a woman and as such would not have been permitted in the temple.

different but if you want to pick holes in the chronology of Wing chun

I am not interested in picking holes in the chronology of Wing Chun. I am however, pointing out your incorrect statements. We don't need yet another person here with an air of authority when they haven't done their basic research properly.


Best wishes,