Following Instructions

[Andrew]

Thanks Jeff

[Mark A]

Opinions

Hi Tom,
I am sorry to hear that your experiences has led you to this opinion of Sifu. In my experience of studying Shaolin Wahnam Chi kung is that it has helped me immensly and opened a new world to me. I have attended a few weekend seminars and an intensive course.
I am glad that you have found a teacher who is helping you.

Like my brothers and sisters have said before me lots of people have been helped by Sifu

I am not going to try and defend Shaolin Wahnam Chi Kung to you for two reasons.
1)It has been confirmed to me that it works through direct experience.
2)I do not wish to get into any arguments over this, which I feel this thread is turning into.

You have your opinion and I have mine of Sifu, both to which we are entitled to.

What I will say is that to me Sifu has taken me off a road I was travelling down which was quite destructive to me and I am now on another one which is far more beneficial to me.

I hope you are successful in whatever you do
Mark A

[Luo Lang]

How many people have you personally help cure (and let's say for the sake of arguement that a medical doctor would be surprised too)? Or how many people of Wong's students have you personally met who've overcome great problems?

Alone in Switzerland I have met more than one who could overcome their problems. Including me.

"Relaxation" is just a western-marketed concept for chi kung to sell. There isn't full relaxation in a person during chi kung.

What is full relaxation? I try to relax as best as possible and don't ask what is full relaxation. But I am pretty sure that I am still able to relax much more

What I learned from my current teacher is that with exercises like letting go, and self-manifested chi flow, it is easy for chi to go to the head, for you are not always completely aware of your movements.

Different ways leads to Rom. I respect and tolerate the system of your current teacher, without judging. I am happy that there are also other systems. So please respect how Sifu is teaching.

First, in chi kung, one must learn to control chi. Letting go can lead to problems. It is also easier for chi to rise up, compared to having it go back down. You need a proper chi kung method to take this into account.

Sorry to say that, don't take it personal: but for me that sounds as you already are a Chi Kung Master. You tell how Chi Kung is working or should be practiced, so why do you take lessons?

I am happy for you that you found another Master. It seems it is working for you quite well. I wish you all the best on your way.

[Hubert]

Tom, I hope you are still reading this topic. It is interesting to hear from someone who has been to several courses, including the intensive one, and yet does not feel satisfied (to say the least, apparently).

I am not going to argue or trying to convince you, but here is my personal experience, which you might relate to:

I too have done a regional and intensive course, and I too have not "healed" anything after 5 months. Or - should I say - I have not achieved what I thought were my primary objectives. From an external view, you could say that my training brought many "negative" side effects (extreme tiredeness, various pain everywhere, doubts, ...), which obviously is not what you might expect after about 5 months of practice.

So I started worrying a bit too. This is quite a normal reaction, from me or anyone at that stage.

I sent an email to Sifu, describing the situation, and asking for advice. He very kindly spent the time to send me a long and thorough email, answering every questions I asked, and explaining many aspects of my training. (this might or might not appear in a future Q&A, maybe keep an eye on it)

In my case, it was the cleansing being too fast for my body, plus a problem I never was awared of being worked on. Starting to worry was just slowing down the cleansing process, and creating more blockages.

Sifu's clear instructions was (his exact words): "Stop worrying. Enjoy your chi flow"

So now I just follow the instructions. I don't think about the benefits, I don't worry about the weird symptoms, and I just simply love my training.

Depending on the perspective, it might sound stupid (why am I carrying on when I get all those negative symptoms?), or very wise. I my case, I chose to trust Sifu and my seniors. It just feels right. In your case, you chose to go to another system, which is perfectly reasonable. Now openly showing disrespect to Sifu might not be necessary...

I am happy you have eventually found your way, and I hope you will still respect our system - at least it lead you to where you are now!

[wooden shoes]

Hi Tom!

I have similar experiences to Hubert's..as you probably know!

The first year, after attending two regional courses, nothing happened. Then, after the third regional course, my problem (fear / nervousness) became much, much worse.

The second year, after the Intensive course, the fear / nervousness was still there, but I found it didn't lead to any problems anymore (If I was so nervous in the past I couldn't sleep at night, now I was still sometimes nervous / afraid I couldn't sleep, but I always could. I put it down to being able to relax enough to fall asleep, even if the main cause had not been routed out completely)

This last month, (I started working again last week) I also find my nervousness and fears finally receding.. and I seem to get amazing results from training!

The fact that I didn't have good results initially, may be (IMHO) because
1 I hadn't "gotten" it after the first three causes - I think this could have played a big part. The way I can relax now, enjoy my chi flow and the stillness afterwards, is so much "profounder" than when I started now, it's like comparing night and day..
2 It was working on the problem, but not very fast because I wasn't skillfull enough.
3 The chi was working on some other problem - could be
4 bad karma coming out - could also be , I just don't know.

I cannot attribute my failure to "get" it (if that was it) to Sifu. I think a student needs to decide himself if his techniques / skills are good enough.I was just a slow / thick student until the Intensive course ... Some students, like me, just need more teaching than others. Luckily enough, I decided to go to the Intensive Course because I felt I hadn't finished yet and should improve.

Now that I get such wonderful benefits from training, I don't care at all if I had to take the slow way round!

Wish you all the best with your new training method!

Roeland

[Zhang Wuji]

The comments about Sifu's teaching

I too have done a regional and intensive course, and I too have not "healed" anything after 5 months. Or - should I say - I have not achieved what I thought were my primary objectives. From an external view, you could say that my training brought many "negative" side effects (extreme tiredeness, various pain everywhere, doubts, ...), which obviously is not what you might expect after about 5 months of practice.
So I started worrying a bit too. This is quite a normal reaction, from me or anyone at that stage.

I am so glad Hubert posted this. I have been practising for 2 months after the intensive course and yes, I sometimes feel even more tired than before. And just yesterday, I posted my comments about how I had nausea for 10 days, which is normally a big warning sign. I could not attribute everything to cleansing - after all, how many physical problems can a non-smoking, non-drinking and normally healthy 20-something male have?

I also tend to agree with Tom that qi does seem to float up easily, which is why in my Taijiquan practice, we always have to sink the qi. My nausea seems to have been caused largely by my violent spinning during qi flow and qi rushing to my head when I let go. I normally send the qi down or tame it when it gets to this stage, but this does validate Tom's point.

My family have also asked me why I seem so tired and why some problems still persist after taking up qigong. These are questions I ask myself too.

Yet, despite these problems, I keep the faith. I have noticed I am much less angry than before. This alone is the biggest sign possible. And while I do fall sick (which really disappoints me), the complications that usually come with the flu do not appear. I just wish I am not so sleepy all the time though

And Sifu does not just teach once and vanish. He also kindly answered all my queries via email explaining all my areas of doubt during practice, like he did for Hubert.

I am quite grateful to Tom for sharing his experiences, and really I don't interpret his comments as attacking Shifu. He had after all spent a lot of money and yet had to be hospitalised. Shifu does assure students of very fantastic achivements and if some do not achieve them, it is quite understandable if they are frustrated. For me, I can honestly say I had doubts throughout the course itself because I felt no qi despite SIfu's Q&A stating that everyone feels qi on the first day of the course. You have no idea what it is like hearing Shifu confidently say "Now you can feel the qi washing and cleansing you" when there I was, feeling like a block of wood. I also share Tom's view that the student is not always the problem. A couple of other students also did not have any tangible results and were wondering if they had wasted their time. And these were not the cynical sceptical types but rather enthusiastic and open-minded students (the happy epilogue is that all my doubts vanished on the final day). This is not putting down Shifu and his teaching but it is only fair that i record down the actual experiences of what we went through.

Sometimes, the method may really be unsuitable for the student and the master may not realise this - I am not speaking in relation to the intensive course here but more about my Taijiquan school which uses a most unsatisfactory one size fits all approach.

It may be impossible for everyone who attended the courses to be fully satisfied, though this is the first time I heard a negative comment. Perhaps there is really a mismatch between Master, student and method. Shifu cannot be everyone's master so only those so destined will stay with him.

Just a side note, maybe the problem with the intensive course is that too much is taught in 3 days, and people like me could not absorb everything (Shifu actually expressed this same concern at the course, and to our horror suggested trimming down the syllabus even more).

[Chiahua]

Thank you for your comments, it's really informative.
One of the cornerstones of the modern western medical approach (as I understand) is outcomes evaluation-- how are people doing after the treatment at various timepoints. There are plenty of examples of remarkable recovery on the website and on the forum. I think it'd be just as important to carefully evaluate what happens when the treatment doesn't yield the expected results. The problem for qigong in this regard is that there are too many factors that are intertwined, almost to an infinite degree.

[Luo Lang]

Zang Wuji,
Many thanks for your open heart. Hubert, Roeland and Tom were also very open minded to share their experiences. You all got my deepest respect

how many physical problems can a non-smoking, non-drinking and normally healthy 20-something male have?

I just can tell from my experience as a therapist: actually many smoking, drinking joung male and female are "healthier" (relatively) than the others who don't do anything. I don't know why, but for me it seems that they just don't care and just do without worrying. Anyway ther are many more factors which can cause a disease without looking at the risk factors.

I also tend to agree with Tom that qi does seem to float up easily, which is why in my Taijiquan practice, we always have to sink the qi. My nausea seems to have been caused largely by my violent spinning during qi flow and qi rushing to my head when I let go. I normally send the qi down or tame it when it gets to this stage, but this does validate Tom's point

Actually, I can't imagine how the Chi should rush into the head without any reason. I think there are many reasons why you get nausea, so I would wait for an answer, advice of a instructor During Chi flow I don't do anything as just relax and enjoy

I am quite grateful to Tom for sharing his experiences, and really I don't interpret his comments as attacking Shifu.

Absolutely, me too. He has my respect and I think also the respect of many others.
But for my opinion he was extremely upset (dispite the fact that he could manage the chi to sink) and disrespectful . He knew that you should call a Master not just by his name (wong), rather Sifu Wong or at least Master Wong. And to call somebody a bogus, which has helped literally hundrets, thousands of people, just out of such an anger, I don't know. I did a lot of things before I have met Sifu. And I also spent a lot of money (to be honest: much more than 3000 us: books, videos, courses, many of them and herbal, natural medications) with so called bogus. But I never became disrespectful cause of this. To call a Sifu a bogus is one thing but to meet a new Master and then al of a sudden tell others how Chi Kung should be practiced and how it is working (without having a big experience at all), that's not gentlemanlike.
One thing that impress me of our school is that we are happy when other system also work and we are happy when students sometimes find another more suitable tool for them; but from all what I have read so far on this forum: everybody was respectful.

This is not putting down Shifu and his teaching but it is only fair that i record down the actual experiences of what we went through

You are honest and respectful, I like that.

Warmest regards

Roland

[Antonius]

I just watched Bill Moyers "Healing and the Mind" yesterday at school. It was my first time seeing it. If you haven't seen it, I highly recommend it.

In the documentary, they interviewed a healthy, 91-year-old Tajiquan master in China who said, "It took me 10 years to discover my chi, and 30 years to learn to use it." There was another master who taught daily in a park. "Show up every day for 3 years and then I'll know you're serious" is what he would say to prospective students.

I've met not one, but many people who've been doing Taijiquan for 10-20 years who openly admit they have not had any real experiences with chi. Twenty years!! I know others who've practiced other styles of kungfu for years with no experience of chi or internal force. It took Sifu 10 years to experience chi. It took me 2 years to really get it.

I've had my ups and downs and been through some nasty cleansing that many of you wouldn't believe, but I still feel priviledged to practice this art. I'm grateful that I didn't have to prove myself for 3 years before getting a single lesson. I'm grateful that I didn't have to wait 10 years to "figure out" chi on my own. I'm grateful that I don't have to worry about practicing 20 years to little effect. I'm grateful that my teacher doesn't withold secrets.

Practicing qigong is not without risk. (If you're doing gentle exercise and not qigong, then there are no risks other than death by boredom.) Genuine qigong is a powerful art, but if you can follow the instructions of a good teacher, then the risks are minimal. It's safer than playing soccer. It's safer than driving.

That's not to say that those who can't follow instructions are always at fault. It's an art. Not everyone gets it. Not everyone can learn the way Sifu Wong teaches. Some would do better with other teachers, or a combination of teachers. That's why there are other teachers.

But Shaolin Cosmos Qigong works wonders for many of us.

[Zhang Wuji]

I just can tell from my experience as a therapist: actually many smoking, drinking joung male and female are "healthier" (relatively) than the others who don't do anything.

Anthony addressed this in another post over at "Cleansing, Short-term..." and noted that stuff like meat (I stopped eating meat a year ago), city living and emotional tension can also cause those problems. Scary to think how much poison we take in everyday.

He knew that you should call a Master not just by his name (wong), rather Sifu Wong or at least Master Wong.

As a matter of interest, do people in the West know about this etiquette? It is quite impossible to just use someone's surname in the Chinese language. Not only is it rude, but it is hardly grammatical. And of course, Chinese would use the term Wong Shifu/Sifu (as a suffix). But it seems from all the academic articles I have read, it is quite common in the West to refer to an authority by his surname only.

And to call somebody a bogus, which has helped literally hundrets, thousands of people, just out of such an anger

Yes, "bogus" is not a word to be used lightly. Before I went for the course, I did my due diligence and checked in many forums about the course. I found out to my amusement that most people who criticised Shifu as a charlaton or bogus did so without having ever attended his courses. I even wrote in my diary that these people are judging Shifu without any basis, and only condemned him because he charged $1000. Many others who no longer trained with Shifu still said they were grateful to what he had taught them. They left for a variety of reasons but on fairly amiable terms. Which is why I am so surprised at Tom's strong words - did he get nothing at all after so many courses, hence his anger?

Tom, if you are reading this, perhaps you could enlighten us on why you continued to go for the courses if you felt nothing at the first or second regional courses? Surely, you must have been inspired or derived some benefits or you would not have spent the money. For myself, as well as many others, one course was enough to cement our belief in Shifu's teaching.

[Mike B]

Antonius - a splendid post. You should make it a condition of registration for this forum that everyone has to read it before joining . I have always felt that it is virtually impossible for people with no prior experience of other schools of Qigong/Kung Fu/TCChuan to truly appreciate what an incredible art we are being taught. In different spheres I know monks who have spent their whole lives diligently applying themselves 24/7 to meditation and the dhamma who have not had some of the experiences that many of Sifu's pupils get quickly.

Zhang Wuji - re millions of causes of blockages - did you see the (recently reported in the media) research that showed that those who kept diaries were more depressed, negative, unhappy etc than a control group Can't remember the exact details (I am sure google can) but that was the drift

Mike

[Zhang Wuji]

[QUOTE=Mike B]
Zhang Wuji - re millions of causes of blockages - did you see the (recently reported in the media) research that showed that those who kept diaries were more depressed, negative, unhappy etc than a control group /QUOTE]

Gosh no! Maybe I can analyse my handwriting to be sure if I am suffering from depression. BUt seriously, I started the diary not to record my feelings for the day but to track investments, and it later branched out to health matters. It may be useful in the future if I want to remind myself what i did wrong - in fact, my diary reads like a progress report, so I am never worried that it will fall into outsider's hands, simply cause I don't pen my deepest thoughts

[Hubert]

I think Tom has started a great thread, which might help a lot of people. Good job

I have some precision to add to my previous post, in case it was not too clear. My intention was to share my experience and mistakes, so that whoever could relate to it might benefit from it. I *never* meant to say that Shaolin Cosmo Chi Kung was not working or undermine its wonders.

On the contrary, the results have been far too powerful for me

It's very interesting to see how different it is for everyone. In my case I had no trouble feeling and controlling Chi on the regional and intensive course, but I got impatient in getting the benefits. And probably created more blockages by wondering why the hell I was still aching all over or feeling tired when I had this great feeling of Chi.

Then it occured to me that I was actually getting plenty of benefits. First I *got* this great feeling of Chi. That in itself is wonderful. If we put aside some nasty cleansing, I always feel great after practice, I am more peaceful, and much less prone to anger or stress. I am still tired, but then, I've always been tired (as I do now realize - I didn't even know it), so I still have improved.

Anyway, my point is: give it a chance!


[on being un-healthy]
Well, I too don't smoke (never did), don't drink, used to do regular sport, plus I never really was worried or stressed, but still I managed to get some major blockages all over the place. Go figure

[Zhang Wuji]

[QUOTE=hubertI have some precision to add to my previous post, in case it was not too clear. My intention was to share my experience and mistakes, so that whoever could relate to it might benefit from it. I *never* meant to say that Shaolin Cosmo Chi Kung was not working or undermine its wonders.
[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I second that! Reading my previous posts, I can see they may be intepreted as exuding a lot of negativity, but I was writing as if I was still experiencing those doubts back then. Like Hubert, I was sharing how I felt real-time, and not how I feel now. Anyway, I bet even the seniors feels doubts from time to time. Certainly, I feel so at peace when I practice Shaolin Cosmos Qigong, my staple diet....

[Andrew]

I bet even the seniors feels doubts from time to time

Absolutely. Every time my chi flows reduce to nothing or I have an ache or pain somewhere (not so often these days ) I begin to question whether or not Chi Kung really works and, if so, what I am doing wrong. When I look at it from "the outside" it's so silly. But it is all part of the progression. There will ALWAYS be doubt.

Andrew