That was Zen, this is Tao!

[Antidote]

Great Thread

I found very useful infrmation shared here,and I would like to thank all who participated in it.

This forum is especially know for it's tolerance, respectfull and friendly discussions. But this time this discussion show us that Religion and Spirituality are very hot themes to discuss, and this discussion remember me how religion is so a war generator. that hapenned here, in a small scale, and with people that know how to behave with limits, and have spitirual training, now imagine outside the forum, trhoughout the world...
It's interesting to notice that this sometimes agressive discussion born n a thread about two spiritual systems...There's something wrong here isn't it ? Now I could say practice more and discuss less but who am I to say that...
My brothers just try to undestand, the time you spend in the pointing fingers, would be much more useful if you were stand still, close eyes and clean your mind and focuse on Tao or Nirvana... sinceraly I think you would get more answers this way.
Agressive discussion is not useful at all.

Practice, practice, practice

Blessings

Antidote

[Andrew]

Ovidius has written a nice post.

.....we are asking if any instruments of Taoism conjoined to Buddhism to form Chan."

That is certainly part of this. And I still (maybe I am just ignorant ) waiting for some real evidence to support that theory.

Antidote ....

My brothers just try to undestand, the time you spend in the pointing fingers

I have yet to see finger pointing from any of the Shaolin Wahnam Instructors ...... unless I missed it in which case I would appreciate being directed to those occasions.

Andrew

[Charles David]

much more useful if you were stand still, close eyes and clean your mind and focuse on Tao or Nirvana... sinceraly I think you would get more answers this way.

Indeed, I find thoughts of this discussion coming to me even during my practice. Thanks for the reminder.

[Michael Durkin]

Benefits of practicing Great Arts, and great discussions too.

Hello everyone, participants and observers. I would like to say that this thread is offering a lot of benefit in more ways than one.

Barry's comment :

“Is any of this supposed to be helpful to anyone?”,

and Cha Muir's comment :

"I think that what we are seeing here is an example of liguistic sparring "


I believe this will be useful to those that believe this thread has turned into verbal Kung Fu, verbal gymnastics or fruit less efforts.

One thing that I have experienced from my practice with Shaolin Wahnam, we aim to train smart. What is the point of putting a lot of time and effort into something if it doesn't realise or return any rewards, nothing. One of our cherished principles is “Idealistic in philosophy but pragmatic in practice.” You can benefit from this thread by actively applying your training to understand or take part. Here are some ways you may benefit from this debate, or taking part in any debate.

Enrich your understanding on the topic, Zen, Buddhism and Taoism.
When you make a point, or try to understand something, have mental clarity, and importantly for others if you post.
Develop the skill or clearly presenting, organising and convincingly delivering your points.
Clear confusion. If you can, point to the truth.
Learn from others and benefit from the experience gained as a group, working towards a mutual benefit for all.
Practice the Buddha’s teaching that we do not accept any teaching on faith alone or on the reputation of masters, but access it to the best of our understanding and ability.
If there is difference in opinion between two or more people, then practice respect, patience, compassion, tolerance and humility.
Enjoy ourselves. Break tension with humour.
Even though the discussion is looooooong, see it as invigorating rather than tiring. Learn perseverance.
Practice the skill of perception and understanding.
By changing your behaviour through perceiving someone, you can lead the way towards benefit.
Experiment with different approaches, tactics and strategies.
Be prepared if someone is going to call your bluff. Or expect you to explain yourself.
Expect to be challenged.
Be courageous, but not bull headed.
Learn through direct experience.
Listen, then think before jumping the gun.

Practice what you preach !


You now have a long list to help me when I show my inadaquaces (spelling is one !!).


Do we have to go through blood sweat and tears in life. Our practice is meant to enrich our daily lives. We don't really benefit from struggling alone, there for lets stop resorting to personal attacks that aren't justified.

Rather than struggle together, how about we STRIVE together.


Take care,
Michael

[Chiahua]

It's interesting to notice that this sometimes agressive discussion born n a thread about two spiritual systems...There's something wrong here isn't it?

I think that what we are seeing here is an example of liguistic sparring

Thank you Michael for an excellent post, and I hope that I can follow some of the advice!
My feeling is that, while not in line with Shaolin Wahnam philosophy, keeping the discussion with more of a scholarly leaning and away from direct experience is a way to keep the discussion from getting too personal. It may be less useful (which is why I am thankful for Michael's post, which is very useful for all reading this thread), but it helps me to distance myself from the disagreements that arise. When someone disagrees with a point I make, they are not implying that I am lying or that I cannot interpret my own experiences (at least I hope not! ), but that I need to research a bit more. Maybe you could say that linguistic sparring is a poor training method -otherwise I would be debating like an untrained child- rather, it is a way for one to confirm one's scholarship and to gauge one's ability to apply that knowledge?
Happy reading and training,
Chia-Hua

PS Zen monks also had their own form of "linguistic sparring", though it wasn't confrontational-- the 5th patriarch had put a question to his students, and they were tasked to come up with an appropriate response. The senior student at the time posted one response, and Hui Neng countered with with the marvelous. The writing's on the wall!

[Darryl]

Best laid plans

Hi folks,

At the end of a rather long and interesting day, I am going to have to withdraw as the Moderator for this thread. The reason is simple - due to my suppliers over-enthusiasm, I have just lost my internet connection (and phone line) at home. I am currently being very antisocial at a friends house and will shortly return to the forum, but at the moment I cannot say when I will be back. If I don't return beforehand - have an excellent Christmas and a wonderfull New Year.

Before I go, some quick clearing up

Finger Pointing - to set the record straight, I was not referring to Anthony pointing fingers, but in being pointed at. Finger pointing is distracting from an excellent thread and my stating that all posts that contained nothing but finger pointing (which there have been several) would be removed was to allow the thread to progress smoothly. For the record, most of the finger pointing had come from Sifu Stier and while he has stated (twice) that he will be leaving the thread, it would be wonderfull if he would continue to post here. While I will not be around to view this thread, I am sure that one of the other Shaolin Wahnam Instructors will step in to act as a Moderator.

My warmest regards to you all

[Mark A]

Direct Experience

Hi Folks,
I have really enjoyed the thread, I have followed it as best as I can, I can see that a lot of people have a lot of knowledge on these subject. My own opinion is that this has become to scholarly, as someone who is trying to develop his scholarly skills it has been invaluable.......so thank you and it maybe over some people heads (like mine) at times.

My understanding is that one of the precepts of bhuddism is to cultivate the mind. The knowledge that has been shared here has beem great for developing my mind!! One of the other precepts ( maybe I use the wrong word .like I said I am developing my scholarly skilles ) is direct experience.

Maybe all the people who have contibuted could give us some of there own direct experience of both daoism and zen. This wouild help me put some of the knowledge into a better understanding. What do people think?

Thanks
Mark A

[chiron]

hello mARK!, IAGree about the scholar;y aspect of this thread being out of reach to my pursuit to understanding. I have been synthesising the information more in a well a lazy way letting my attention go to back to my present personal problems and seeing how I can alleviate whatevers bugging me right now from what i'v just read. so reading your thread jus t now confirmed how the the thing on my mind at the moment is about questioning how information/wisdom travels?? and im coming to trust thats its about heart wisdom, and the willingness for us to have receptive hearts, and to be able to face our hearts. iyour thread supported that theory because of your searching for understanding, and you said mentioned buddhisms understanding comes from the mind and you said your not bothered BOUT THE SCHOLARLY DEABTE. woops capitals, i wonder what that means?! well maybe thats drawin my attention to the way i feel about all those lists of aggreievences! I'm having real problems with my mum a the moment, I'm 18 so thats okay for now... but it really does piss me off when we hark back to old fights and lay up quotes as 'evidence' for what the other one did that was so 'bad'. when it doesnt bloody matter!.aaggggggggrhhhhhh!!!! My point is... that getting angry with her, as i just have. immediately causes a halt in all of my efforts to understanding and peace and balance! i throw away all of loving attitudes and have a tantrum which i then look at and think 'what the f??' that was totally pointless. But It makes me aware that everyone has these issues which are just ego blockages really... if i'm completly honist with myself that is... and I know that we're all here to develop, grow and become more aware... and through that conflicts just cease to matter or deserve any 'feeding' But I totally respect how much strength is required to keep up the quality. So its just inevitable that people get angry and frustrated. But my teacher taught me good once on anger. He should only have to do it once.. but ANYWAY!, there i was in a standing posture for an 45 minutes the pain I cannot tell you...I was just SO maddened i started screaming obscenities at him, like it was his fault! he didn't respond but I had to take my attention back to the stance because I realised it was a waste of energy, and more likely to make him think I couldn't do the challenge. he's so amazing its amazing! because he'd given me exactly the right task. to simply stand still and keep my attention on the best alignment for the flow of energy. he just percieves what i do and i think the knowledge that theres somebody realised with you, removes the temptation to 'let off steam' by getting all angry and blameful. at the time i'd learnt that pain is a personal experience but your the only one whos responsible for it, even though i began to direct my frustration at him it was just a temporary blip, and happened for all sorts of reasons. I was in extreme pain, and confused, i was angry because i was jealous of his self discipline and therefore serenity, and also crying out for help, like 'i can't bear this, it's your fault and your mean!' But honistly what would have been the point in starting a completley ungrounded fight with a master who could kill me or worse lose faith in my ability to learn??!!! It was a ridiculous notion but because i value so much what he sees and i dont, i stopped, checked the reasons for shouting out, noticed it was going to ruin my stance and just let it go. i needed totalk to him about it and he said its natrual to feel jealous but you don't need to steal you can develop the qualities yourself. that when your angry its because you desire something and there exists in human nature the desire to make other beings suffer, like running over birds on the road, or much worse.. But the challenge for me was to check my anger straight away and see the way it was just a deviation for assuming responsibilty for my own pain. oh god, now i just want to apologise to all the poeple i've hurt....I have no idea what i wanted to say on this post anymore. I think i was trying to talkabout the general struggle with pain and blame...oh yes!!!! that was it this thread s brought me back to the search for clarity....which is a word that makes me think of a clear still lake, i guess that is symbolic of the nature of the tao and ultimate wisdom or whatever It is i am somewhere inside striving for!. errrrrrr This thread has made me want that kind of clarity again! because of the obviousness that everyone here has greatly similar intersets and its currently in the growing process of trying to figure out just what it is we are talking about! but i don't think there s any point in trying to dictate what it is we are allowed or supposed to be disscusing because its really just a very interesting thread with loads of interesing people on it, and theres a grandmaster willing to answer any of our interests! . oh yeah and people r saying how bits of this are over their head, or confused but thats what teachers are for. they are weird and wonderful and teach in wired ways but that because they understand so much more than we do and have that desired clarity that just goes straight to the root, anyway i could ramble on forever and ever but i'v got a counselling app. YAY! to find out what more iv got to say. It never has a point i just ramble and then pause to think, wouldn't silence and clarity be nice?! then lalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalala

[Emiko H]

Purposes of this Forum

Dear Brothers, Sisters and Honoured Guests,

I have recently returned from a wonderful visit to Malaysia, where I had the privilege of attending a special wedding event, as well as receiving innumerable blessings from Sifu. My heartfelt thanks to all of you in the Wahnam family who have kept this forum, and especially this invigorating thread, very much alive and kicking.

Sifu gave many great teachings: I was especially touched by his heart-to-heart transmissions. In one of his talks, he mentioned the merits of this Discussion Forum, especially for those of us who are part of the Wahnam family: it is an excellent opportunity for fine-tuning our friendly kungfu/taijiquan 'sparring' skills.

This means that, in each posting we make, we are encouraged to consider what stance and what approach we can take that will best reveal our strengths and skills. For me, this puts everything into clear perspective, as the idea of coming out in a friendly round of sparring, where the objective is to learn from one another, is far more attractive than entering into a battle where disagreement with the other is seen as a personal challenge. In friendly sparring, disagreement is encouraged: where there is a 'bridge', let us cross it; where there is a 'stream', let us flow with it.

If a person presents with a closed fist (Black/Fierce Tiger), I can respond in numerous ways: flow with it and strike back (Beauty Looks at Mirror and then White Snake); block it with a hard Single Tiger. Regardless of what I choose, it is unlikely that the opponent would get angry with me or take my response as a personal attack on his character.

What is the purpose of this friendly sparring? To have a safe, wholesome venue where people can try out their skills, zero in on their weaknesses, and recognise their strengths. In daily life, though we may not have to 'fight to the death' like in the old days, we are still constantly faced with verbal confrontations and assault. Learning how to manage these with grace, knowing how not to take them personally but rather seeing them as genuine opportunities for self-development is difficult to do: this is one of the factors that makes this discussion forum so unique and treasured.

There may be those of you who are new to the Wahnam Family or visiting as guests, and so may not be aware of the basis on which these threads are built. Common courtesy and basic etiquette are mandatory. This is expected of all participants, guests notwithstanding.

A direct word to Sifu Stier: having you on board has been most beneficial to us and we have learnt much from your participation. Please know that as you are a grandmaster, it is rare for us to have the opportunity of engaging in friendly debate with such a worthy adversary. You have given us much to work with, and for this, we not only thank you, but also invite you to stay on as our honoured guest.

Well, that's enough from me for now. I'll step back and enjoy more of the 'learning'.

Peace and blessings from your new moderator,

Emiko

[chiron]

wow. thank you Emiko I'm sorry that my post was really aggro. and uncouth, i can't edit it though, could you moderate it? I'm sorry for being rude.
metta; selva

[Sifu Stier]

A State of Union!

Greetings to All!

I extend a very warm welcome to our new Moderator, Emiko, who is always and ever the very soul of respect and diplomacy!

Returning to the initial objective of this thread, I would encourage everyone to focus on similarities seen in comparison of Zen and Tao, not the seeming differences. The terminology and methodology of these two great systems may vary, but end goal of each is to abandon that which separates and divides us, to reject as illusory that which perpetuates 'like and dislike', and to fully embrace a One-ness which can only be found by emptying the mind of 'ego' considerations.

In the 'Sutra of Complete Enlightenment', the Buddha said: "Since the time without beginning, all living beings have been clinging wrongly to the reality of an ego, of a man, of a being, and of a life. They regard these four inverted illusions as their real bodies, thereby giving rise to like and dislike. Because of this false body, they cling to further falsehood, and the likes and dislikes, by relying on each other, create false karmas." And later in this same work, "Therefore, the result is that we like those who agree with us, and dislike and resent those contradicting us. Because of like and dislike, ignorance is preserved. As ignorance continues, it is impossible to realize anything in one's quest of the Truth."

Chuang-Tzu said: "Suppose you and I argue. If you beat me instead of my beating you, are you really right and am I really wrong? If I beat you instead of you beating me, am I really right and are you really wrong? Or are we both partly right and partly wrong? Or are we both wholly right and wholly wrong? Since between us neither you nor I know which is the case, others are naturally in the dark. Whom shall we ask to arbitrate? If we ask someone who agrees with you, how can they arbitrate? If we ask someone who agrees with me, how can they arbitrate? If we ask someone who agrees with both of us, or who disagrees with both of us, how can they arbitrate? So among us, which is right? Shall we wait for still others to arbitrate?.....Forget the distinction of right and wrong. Relax, and abide in the Realm of the Infinite!"

Thus, in putting aside all ego considerations, by emptying the mind of like and dislike, of right and wrong, of 'us' versus 'them', of me against you, we can clear the sense of 'self' and 'others' which impedes the Quest of Truth, and can thereby empty ourselves of all that really 'is not' in order to Unite with All That Is!

[Sifu Stier]

No Words!

In belated response to a question from Andrew, when the teaching of the great Buddhist and Taoist Masters is fully understood, all sense of differentiation, value judgement, and ego discrimination melts away from the heart and mind of the spiritual aspirant. A new perception and experience of empty non-attachment that abides in the Unity of One-ness with the source of All That Is alone remains. This is The Insubstantial and Indestructible, The Unlimited and Indescribable which mere words cannot convey. Thus, all words regarding It are forgotten and abandoned!

[Ovidius]

A long quotation

Here is an interesting quotation from a free e-book by Falun Dafa leader Li Hongzhi: Zhuan Falun, Turning the Law Wheel, English version, pp. 5-6. It defends why one should learn some instruments instead of just letting go, although the latter one is also a method. What makes this interesting, in my opinion, is that it claims that Buddha, even though he was already enlightened, was in a continuous state of progression what comes to the wisdom, and while thinking his past teachings he thought that they have been "wrong" in a light of the current new wisdom he had encountered. He thereby begun to see that there is not only one right doctrine but many.

Just like Sifu Stier has commented the question of visualization, that it is helpful instrument at the beginning of Taoist practices, the below quotation basically says that the many levels of spiritual development have their own instruments that work well on the students of cultivation. It seems like that more closer to "the truth" people arrive, less they have to say about it, and that is eventually the point when both the Taoist and Chan people would agree with each other on a non-verbal level.

Zen Buddhism believes that the Law isn’t something you can teach, that as soon as you
explain the Law it’s not Law anymore, and that there’s no Law that can be taught, you
just have to figure it out intuitively. That’s why Zen can’t teach any Law today. The Zen
Buddhist Bodhidharma spread this idea, and it was based on one thing Buddha
Shakyamuni said. Shakyamuni said, “no Law is absolute.” So he founded the Zen sect
based on that statement from Shakyamuni. We’d say the sect is going down a dead end.
How so? Back at the beginning, when Bodhidharma went down it, he thought it was
pretty spacious, while for Patriarch II it wasn’t that spacious; for Patriarch III it was soso,
but by the time of Patriarch IV it was already really narrow; basically there wasn’t
much to go down for Patriarch V, and by the time of Patriarch VI, Huineng, they’d hit the
end of it, and they couldn’t go any further. Today if you go to Zen to learn the Law, don’t
ask them anything, because if you ask them something they’ll whack you right on the
head, and they call it a “stick wake up.” The idea is, you shouldn’t ask, and that you’ve
got to awaken on your own. You’d say, “I came here to learn because I don’t know
anything. What am I supposed to ‘awaken’ to? You just hit me with a stick!” That’s the
end that they’ve reached, and they have nothing left to teach. Even Bodhidharma said that
Zen could only be passed down for six generations, and that after that it wouldn’t work.
Hundreds of years have gone by, but today there are still people who cling for dear life to
Zen’s doctrines and just won’t let go. So then what’s the real meaning of Shakyamuni’s
“no Law is absolute”? Shakyamuni was at the Tathagata level. People later on, and even
a lot of monks, weren’t able to awaken to things at Shakyamuni’s level, nor to the state of
mind at his level of awareness, to the true meaning of the Law he taught, or the true
meaning of his words. That’s why people who came after him interpreted it just about
however you could imagine, and they interpreted it into a big mess. And they took “no
Law is absolute” to mean you shouldn’t teach it, and that once it’s taught it’s not Law.
But that’s actually not what it means. After Shakyamuni became Unlocked, or
Enlightened, under the Bodhi tree, he didn’t reach the Tathagata level right away. For all
of the 49 years he was preaching the Law he was constantly improving himself. Every
time he improved one level he’d look back and see that the Law he had just taught wasn’t

correct. After he improved more, he’d realize that the Law he had preached wasn’t
correct again. And when he improved even more, he realized that the Law he’d just
taught wasn’t correct yet again. For all 49 years he was constantly raising his level like
that, and every time he went up one level he’d realize that the Law he taught before had a
low understanding. He also realized that the Law at each level is that level’s
manifestation of the Law, and that every level has a Law, but that not one of them is the
absolute Truth of the universe, although the Laws at higher levels are closer to the nature
of the universe than the Laws at lower levels. That’s why he said, “no Law is absolute.”
In the end, Shakyamuni also said, “I haven’t taught one bit of Law in my life.” Zen
again took that to mean that the Law can’t be taught. Shakyamuni had reached the
Tathagata level by his later years. So why did he say that he hadn’t taught the Law at all?
And what was he really getting at? He was saying, “Even at this Tathagata level I’m at, I
still haven’t seen the universe’s ultimate Truth, or what its ultimate Law is.” So he was
telling people who’d come later not to take his words as the absolute, unchanging Truth,
because that would limit people after him to the Tathagata level or lower, and they
wouldn’t be able to break through to higher levels. The people after him didn’t
understand the true meaning of his words, and they took them to mean, “if the Law is
taught, it’s not the Law”—that’s how they’ve understood it. Shakyamuni was actually
saying, “Different levels have different Laws, and the Law at each level isn’t the absolute
Truth of the universe, but the Law at any given level does act as a guide at that level.”
That’s the idea he was really getting at.
There used to be a lot of people, and especially in Zen, who always held on to that
kind of biased and totally wrong understanding. If nobody teaches you, though, what’s
there to guide you in your practice? How could you practice? How could you cultivate,
then? Buddhism has a lot of Buddhist tales. Maybe some of you have read the one about
a guy who ascended to the heavens. He arrived at a heavenly kingdom, and discovered
that every word in the Diamond Sutra up there was different from the Diamond Sutra
down here, and that even their meanings were different. Then why was that Diamond
Sutra different from the one in the human world? There are other people who’ve said,
“The scriptures in the Western Paradise are so different from the ones below you
wouldn’t recognize them. They’re totally different. Not only the words are different, but
the meaning and the significance of them are different, too. They’ve changed.” What’s
actually going on is, the same Law changes at each level and manifests in a different way,
and for cultivators, it can guide them differently at different levels.
You know, there’s a booklet called, Travelogue of the Western Paradise. It’s about a
monk who meditated and his soul went to the Western Paradise and saw some scenes. He
strolled around for a day there and came back to the human world, where a good six years
had passed. Did he really see all that? He did, but what he saw wasn’t how it really is
there. And why not? His level wasn’t high enough, so he was only shown the Buddha
Law’s manifestation that he was supposed to see at his level. He couldn’t see how things
really are there because a world like that is a manifestation of its makeup by the Law. So
I’d say that this is the meaning of “no Law is absolute.”

Anthony, you differentiate "What traditions have influenced Zen?" and "What traditions have been influenced by Zen?". This dividing act assumes that there exists "a pure Zen", which is different from "not pure Zen", which is something done as Zen, and potentially reaches the same goal too. What is this "pure Zen" and what kind of practices it includes?

[Andrew]

And the confusion begins again

Andrew

[Emiko H]

Celebrating both Similarities and Differences

Dear Brothers, Sisters and Honoured Guests,

I would like to put forth that examining the 'similarities' that exist between Zen and Taoism is beneficial indeed.

In doing so, it is also essential, however, to acknowledge the differences between Zen and Taoism (and to do so accurately), for it is precisely in celebrating and appreciating the aspects that are unique to each stream that we can also recognise and acknowledge the many paths that the spirit may take before arriving at total realisation/fulfillment.

Here is an example of how differences have been successfully celebrated: though Sifu Stier is not from the Wahnam family, Anthony took great pains to identify and acknowledge the fact that Sifu Stier has 'paid his dues' in terms of life training, particularly by being the first in our family to call him Grandmaster, and to list him as 'Grandmaster of Shen Men Tao' on our forum. In this way, Anthony celebrated and showed his appreciation for the unique and hard-earned path that Sifu Stier has walked.

So, in fact, it is through the very examination of differences that one eventually arrives at a 'new', deeper understanding of that which is indefinable. For it is within the 'gaps' of the differences that one can glimpse the great cosmos which lies/has always lain underneath.

I would also like to suggest that when each person is posting, he/she stipulate which parts of the posting are based on scholarly research, and which parts are based on 'direct experience'. This will help to give all readers better perspective of where the 'poster' is coming from.

Selva, thank you for your post. Your intentions are good. In future, could you just insert paragraphs to make for easier reading? Thank you.

Let us maintain the spirit of mutual learning, friendly debate and skillful discussion.

Peace and blessings,

Emiko