Breathing methods and control in Taijiquan

[drunken boxer]

John – hows it going! Congratulations on your achievements!

Jeffrey Sihing
Speaking of people who went on your course and then Sifu’s in Ireland, I’ll give you an update on another student, namely me!
I am a slow learner and have had plenty of difficulty in my progress.
Of course, no one ever said it would be easy! And despite being difficult, it has been enjoyable.
At this point I am focusing on what I can do reasonably well, rather than what I can't do.
For instance, after the course with you, I found the footwork difficult to remember correctly.
On Sifu's course, I found it difficult to get the stances right.
In both, I found it difficult to move from the waist in the manner required.
What I did feel I got right was that from the day you taught me "grasping sparrows tail" whilst technically my form was far from perfect, I felt a lot of energy in my arms whilst performing it.
Then during the course with Sifu, after the stances, and in particular the "three circle stance" I could generate a tremendous energy flow. In fact, I couldn't sleep all night afterwards I was so energetic, until at 6am, I gave up, got out of bed, trained for two hours then returned to bed and slept like a baby!
So since then I have concentrated on grasping sparrows tail and three circle stance as best I can, and lately when performing grasping sparrows tail I also feel energy in my toes, in my lower back, dan tien, my shoulders, right to my fingertips. I feel like I am pushing with my whole body, a great feeling which I also get whilst performing my hunyuan forms.
I don't feel ready for another course yet, but hopefully if I can keep consolidating these techniques I can use them as the building blocks to progression on future wahnam taijiquan courses. For now I think its best I practise on my own.
At least this way I can develop my chi and force, so that at least I am healthy and strong, and in future I can work more on the forms and combat applications! Also hopefully I can develop my min denough that I can absorb more of the material in the future courses, and also develop enough to ease the aches and pains in my body (a major reason why I got into Taijiquan and Chi Kung in the first place).

(I have also felt for a while that as I'm unlikely to ever get the daily sparring practise etc I should at least try to compensate by building as much force as possible, as Sifu mentioned in one of his books and as I can relate to from my own experience in fighting, someone with enough force can fell a more skilled person with one forceful blow. I put this in brackets as perhaps it is a subject for another thread?)

Of course if you think my approach is wrong I'd be grateful to hear your advice!

Thanks,
Paul.

[Darryl]

Long time no see

Hi folks,

Yet another example of the use of one's breath within Lohan Asks The Way - you could think that no one trains anything else! Such a simple set bringing about such incredible experiences.

For a (very) quick explanation for anyone who doesn't train the set, the set goes right side, left side, turn 180 degrees, left side, right side, turn 180 degrees, finish. Each 'side' has four strikes and four counters, which then flow into the next 'side'.

At Novembers Intensive Kungfu course, we were training this set and learning the various timings of the breathing as well as the progressions (one pattern per breath, 4 patterns per breath etc). After we had completed the first 'right', Sifu then said to do the next side in one breath, then 'swallow' after the last pattern with an 'out' on each Precious Duck and Black Tiger (2 strikes per side). With an amusing misunderstanding, I did 'left', then turned 180 degrees and did 'left' again, then ended with 'swallow'. I found myself facing everyone else, laughed and turned back 180 degrees. Interestingly, I had used the same length of time to do the sixteen patterns as it took everyone else to do the eight - not by rushing, but by simply following my own breath (not the same as 'follow' .. but kind of ).

My overall point covers two previous topics from this thread. Firstly, it shows that systematic training can bring about great benefits in regards to 'natural' breathing (16 patterns in one breath, no panting or loss of breath and still calm enough to carry on unfazed) and secondly, it shows that once these skills are completely (or even partially) ingrained, it requires no effort or thought to bring them into practical usage.

[john sholin]

thanks

HI Jeffrey
many thanks for the sound advise and the encouraging words,i wounder where i got the good foundation !!! Please give my best reguards to Lauran, and if at any time the magic cottage is not free (ha ha) both of you will be more than welcome to stay here, if on this side of the world.
smile from the heart and let the chi flow,
John

[john sholin]

HI Drunken Boxer,
great to hear from you,just reading your post,you may not think your making any progress,but now you have experienced chi,got some stances, plus movement from the waist, many people have trained a lifetime and not had these results.IT is not that long ago i remember you were disappointed after a course when you could not feel any chi,(see i had had my eye on you) sometimes it it easier when your on the outside looking in.Please cosider the course in spring down here as your wit and good humour
makes it easy for everybody to smile from the heart
John

[Jeffrey Segal]

good to be in touch with the Kerry class of June 2003

Hi Paul,

Great to hear from you. John has already given you a very good response and I would just add that as long as you remember to enjoy your qi flow (free flow) and to enjoy some standing meditation at the end of your training session, your current training program is ok. In time, it would be good to expand your training to include other aspects but with Grasping Sparrow's Tail and Three Circles Stance you are definitely on the right track. Also (I'm quite sure that you already do this), treaure your hunyuan master and follow his instructions to the best of your ability.

I think that there are the makings of some nice threads in your post.

Hi John,

Glad to be of help and thanks for the offer

Hi Darryl,

Nice post.

Best regards,

[Jeffrey Segal]

moving house and a good time for a break

Hello Everybody,

Lauren and I will be moving house shortly and apart from taking some time to settle down after nearly 2 years of wandering, it may be a while before we have a regular internet connection.

While I will still be checking on the forum and hopefully posting every now and then over the next weeks, I won't be able to devote myself to this thread as I have up till now.

So at this point I'd like to thank everybody who has contributed to making this such an interesting thread. I think we've done well and have made a good start in discussing breathing and control in Taijiquan. A quick look at the summary I made earlier gives an idea of the ground we've covered.

The thread remains open for any of our members to ask questions or tell us about their experiences but I would ask that any general questions about Taijiquan or Shaolinquan or training etc be posted in suitable threads elsewhere on the forum. If I'm not around to answer any questions, I know that I can count on my Wahnam brothers and sisters to share their wisdom.

Finally, thanks from the Heart to Sifu for all of his encouragement and support. My own training has gained much from thinking about and expressing the theory behind what we practice in our training.

Enjoy your breathing

[Chiahua]

Best of luck to you and Lauren in your new (but familiar) environs, hope to see more insightful (inscrutable? ) posts!

[drunken boxer]

John:

You make an excellent point! Yes, you are right, I was jealous of all these people who turned up and said they could feel chi straight away whereas it took me 8 months or something!
So yes, on reflection it is funny that I'm now complaining about not progressing fast enough, even though these days sometimes I can feel the chi surging through me!

Jeffrey:

Yes you are right, I do treasure my master, I still feel luckier than a 10million lottery winner (im deadly serious) to have found a master practically on my doorstep! And I do exactly what he says each day in terms of training, ie what to practise and how much to practise. On top of this I practice carrying the moon, grasping sparrows tail and the three circle stance (which is contained in both hunyuan and wahnam anyway).

(Sorry for the diversion from the thread – perhaps I’ll start some other threads to discuss some of these points as jeffrey suggested)

[Zhang Wuji]

Hi to all

I am sorry to be resurrecting this thread, not to offer anything of substance but to ask another question.

I wonder if Jeffrey and other instructors could help me to undertstand the contents of a Taijiquan intensive course as compared with the Shaolinquan intensive course, in relation to breath control techniques.

From the Review pages, course outline, Darryl's comments in this thread as well as Sifu's wonderful new webpages on Shaolin Wahnam's training methodology (Sifu is really tireless!), it seems that breath control is an obvious component in the course. I mean, there is even a set for it - Lohan Asks the Way. If I understood Jeffrey correctly in this thread, Sifu teaches breathing methods more subtly in and throughout his Taijiquan classes, and not as a distinct section.

Also, will most of the breathing techniques be taught at one course, or only a small sampling? Going by the platinum card feature of Sifu's teaching, I hazard a guess that even a small sampling allows one to transfer the skill to other and maybe more advanced techniques. The phrase which I like to use and I believe Jeffrey likes too is "ju yi fan san".

I ask this because even for a course as relaxed as the intensive qigong course, there was so much to assimilate that I estimate i only got 50% the first time, and another 20% the second time. Even that was enough to take my existing Taijiquan and qigong to incredible levels (as compared to my very low base). I am concerned that with the Shaolin or Taijiquan course which is undeniably 10 times more intensive (at least in terms of training time), I may not be able to "get" those breathing methods (not to mention the many other facets of the courses).

Thank you.

And for those who have not seen the new webpages, it is here: http://shaolin.org/shaolin/sparring-methodology.html

[Zhang Wuji]

HI

I would appreciate the advice of our Wahnam Taijiquan instructors on the contents of the intensive Taijiquan course, in relation to breathing coordination. Thank you.

If either application occurs in isolation, i.e. if your opponent suddenly grips your arm or suddenly pushes you, you could use "in" as you follow your opponent's energy and "out" while performing Peng or using the Sweep to fell your opponent. At the conclusion, remember to gently “swallow” your qi to the Dantian. All this must be accomplished in a split second using Reverse Breathing, Abdominal Breathing, Small Universe Breathing or other breathing modes. An obvious variation would be using “explode” instead of “out”.

For this combat situation, a good breathing structure, using the same three consecutive strikes as in the previous post, would be “follow-(follow)-explode-swallow” Again the three strikes are performed in one breath but this one breath is much shorter than the breath in the first example. I have placed the second “follow” in brackets because there aren’t two separate “follows”. Rather, one “follows” the breath continuously while performing Green Dragon and White Snake.

On the explanation above, I also have a question which I hope doesn't sound too stupid. I think the answer is probably obvious to those who have learnt Shaolinquan or Taijiquan from Sifu but for me at the moment, being uninitiated, I can't seem to grasp it. The question is: After the breath has been "exploded" instead of just being "let out", would there be any more to swallow into the dantian?

ALso, does "explode" mean more force expended than a normal "out" breath?

Again, I am sorry if these seem to be very elementary questions.

[Andrew]

I would appreciate the advice of our Wahnam Taijiquan instructors on the contents of the intensive Taijiquan course, in relation to breathing coordination.

I will leave this one for those who have attended the course themselves.

After the breath has been "exploded" instead of just being "let out", would there be any more to swallow into the dantian?

If the breathing has been correctly controlled there will still be a significant amount of "breath" to swallow. I put "breath" in inverted commas as we are more concerned with energy dynamics than "traditional air" breathing.

ALso, does "explode" mean more force expended than a normal "out" breath?

It depends on the situation and what you consider "normal out breath". "Explode" here means more to release a given quantity in an explosive manner i.e. in a short time with (controlled) force. It does not necessarily give any direct indication of quantity per sé.

Andrew

[Zhang Wuji]

Wow, thanks Andrew.

I just want to say how grateful I am to your guidance, from even before I became part of Shaolin Wahnam. I am truly glad to have a shixiong like you.

[Andrew]

Aw shucks

Andrew

[joko]

Another description of Visualization

[QUOTE=Jeffrey Segal]
In Wahnam Taijiquan as in Shaolin Cosmos Qigong we use the term visualisation but in practice it is more like “gently thinking of”. The progression between visualisation and realisation and back is very fluid. It’s a fascinating aspect of training. Sometimes “gently thinking” of an energetic process gives us the chance to realise and notice something that is already taking place. On other occasions, this “gentle thinking” can set the process in motion. Going from visualisation to realisation or spontaneity can be described in Chinese as going from you wei to wu wei
[QUOTE=Jeffrey Segal]


I wonder if I could put another decription with my limited English:

When I directed my chi flow to certain part of my body, the nearest description of what I was doing would be: "gently put your attention" to that certain part of the body.

[QUOTE=Jeffrey Segal]
A very interesting aspect of Sifu’s teaching of late is that he is able to guide students towards attaining advanced breathing methods such as Dantian breathing without using visualisation. I have attended numerous courses where many (if not all) of those attending have been able to tap cosmic energy into their Dantian without any visualising whatsoever.

Do nothing and everything will be done for you!
[QUOTE=Jeffrey Segal]


Yes, after Sifu told us that we can generate energy just by using our mind, now I can do just that. Just by standing or sitting upright, I am able to generate energy flow (I start swaying gently), or if I want to tap the energy from cosmos, I can feel the cosmic energy coming through my body.
The most decisive factor would be my intention, what I intend to do.

Now I understand Sifu's terms of "static" chi kung mentioned in his books.


Thanks,

Joko Riyanto.

[Vero]

Close. According to Jeffrey's excellent explanations, it should be: "In — follow — out — swallow."

The last pattern is the "out" breath. In Shaolinquan, we use the "hite!" sound for this. I'll let Jeffrey explain the Taijiquan version since he does it so well. In any case, after the "out" breath, you should still have 30% of your breath/energy left. Swallow your saliva and sink that 30% to Dantian. Now you are ready for another breathing sequence.

Thank you for this thread, it is very interesting.

I wonder what happens with the remaining 30% of breath, it does come out with the "hite" sound then swallow?

"Swallow your saliva and sink that 30% to Dantian.", this means there is a remaining breath/energy that is kept in dan tian before the next breathing?

Thanks

Vero