How can i phrase this i really want to know !

[Kin Tama]

Hi everyone, i signed up read the rules and i really want to ask something, Its not flaming its not trolling its just a simple question. I have wanted to rant about it for a while but never bothered to sign up but now i had the time so i thought why not.

I really want to know why all of the wkk students are wkk students, what is it that makes you do it .

Now to the part that may sound like trolling, looking collectively at the forums , at the prices you pay,especially at the standard of what you demonstrate in the video clips. It is not only horrendously low standard but also looks like you are stuck in a glass shell where people look from outside inwards but you cant see the rest of the world outside.

I would appreciate it if this isnt deleted as that adds to my point,of lets ignore this "we are aum above all" neither is this a direct attack at any one person.

I used to think what sifu wkk wrote was good admirable agree on most points etc etc , his prices are high but its ok because he provides lodging i guess


Then i saw some of the video clips and i thought good lord this is bad, then i read the shaolin betrayal story and i thought this is a joke right, then i saw the video clips of fighting versus boxers and sparrign during the camps and i nearly fell of my chair, that is beyond conceivably bad , if you tried that against a boxer of your own standard you would end up knocked out in about 2 seconds. Dont you actually REALISE this ? have you ever looked at sparring ? a boxing match ?

I thought let it slide, then i saw the international champions sparring clips, again no attack against anyone but good lord this is what made me write up how could you people actually practise this drivel. International champions ? Can you honestly look yourselves in the mirror and say if i did these moves at that speed in those competitions i won i would definately have won again. If so then please enlighten me what competitions did you win .

Now to answer some maybe questions like i bet you practise kickboxing/mma/brazilian jujitsu etc and think its the best or who are you to comment etc, i dont practise any of these , i am a traditional martial artist and have been for 14 odd years.

If you look around , other people practice internal, external and many types of traditional martial art in normal schools who dont pay 1.5k but only 30-100 dollars a month and their standard is high, look on other forums on other websites and open your eyes a bit.

[Andrew]

Kin Tama,

We won't delete your post -- why should we? I'm afraid I don't have the time to address your post in full.

But before I go into details, please note this. This is the Shaolin Wahnam Institute forum. You have read the rules and then refer to Sifu Wong Kiew Kit as wkk. You say have read this forum --- then you will have seen that we expect and demand that a minimal level of respect is shown --- in particular to Sifu Wong. So please, in future, refer to the Grandmaster of this Institute in an appropriate fashion. Particularly a "traditional martial artist of 14 years" should know better.

Back to your post which you open with:

Its not flaming its not trolling its just a simple question.

Your manner of writing looks very much more like flaming or trolling than a simple question. Again, you may want to re-consider this style if you wish to continue participating here.

I would also expect a serious martial artist wishing to be taken seriously to choose a different forum name than yours --- which is Japanese and means Golden Testicles (or colloquially "Golden Balls" and is often used as a hidden form of insult!).

Regarding your opinions on the material presented in Sifu's web site, the other web sites of Shaolin Wahnam instructors around the world, this forum and the many video clips. You are quite entitled to your opinion. In fact I don't think any of us will be surprised that you present such an opinion considering the above. Please, however, present your opinions in a more appropriate fashion if you wish to be taken seriously.

You may also want to consider changing your username.

Andrew

[Mark A]

Why we are Sifu's students

Hey Kin,
I dont think any offense has been taken at your post and as you can see it has not been deleted. Our ethics as Shaolin Wahnam Instructors doesnt allow this, more importantly our innate morality cant let us do this.

You may see my answer as a bit soft but here goes.

Sifu is a man who truly lives his art, he is also very highly experienced and qualified. He is his art in the true sense, not only does he practise a martial arts but he understands, and can teach the philosphy and internal teachings behind his art.

Now we come to Sifu as an individual, his knowledge is wide ranging on many subjects. His perspective on life is truly inspiring. More importantly he cares about people and his students.

A lot of us here can honestly say that our time with Sifu has changed our
lives, I know I can.


Now you can take that statement anyway you want! But I am more than happy with my studies and my experiences with Sifu and the rest of my family. The word to note here is "experiences", no offense but until you meet Sifu we can only explain why we are his students, we cant make you [B]realise, and that is the difference.



Yes the prices are high, but there are a number of things that validate this. One is the money back garanutee. Another is the defined goals and objectives. There are lot more reasons I could give but I dont see the need to. We dont make people pay it is their choice and I think most people are happy with it.

[B]Ok the video clips, that is all they are videos clips, clips at a certain moment in reality, It is like only seeing a thread in a tapestry, you only see that tiny part and not the rest of the threads that make up the picture. You end up narrowing you eyes just concentrating on that thread. Take a few steps back and enjoy the whole picture. Those videos were taken on a course and yes people were sparring slowly, so if people make choices about coming to Shaolin Wahnam from the videos they are only seeing a very narrow perspective. It is actually quite interesting that professional Thai fighters spar slowly and softly. This still allows them to learn and work skills such as time and spacing, angle recognition, structure and body mechanics and a few other things as well . Oh and techniques, flow, defense postures, offensive combination and tactic, emotional focus and it also keep them safe. Like I said when you only see a thread of the pciture you miss so much more.

"Dont look at the finger ( hitting the student on head) or you miss all the heavenly glory"

The art truly is vast and the training methodolgy is exceptionally good.

The people in the Wahnam family come from a broad range of backgrounds, we have people who are exceptional fighters to true scholars. We have egineers, doctors, politicians, executives and very ordinary people like myself. A lot of us have paid the fees and attended these courses. We get taught the training methodology and are given tools on how to use it. On the courses we get given the essence of the art and how it flows through all aspects of your life. I will be quite honest on my first course I did not make it past the first 6 combat sequences and there are 16!! . But I did learn how to use them and was given a road map on how to deepen my understanding. Not only that I was given the gift of learning chi kung and the understanding of the interal arts. That alone has changed my life and that is a whole book in writing not a thread on the forum

Ok you made some comments on our understanding of other arts. I am not going to speak for my other members of our family. I think it is safe to say that I have an understanding of other arts, I even have direct experience in some of them.

Now I dont like mentioning who I have trained with as it sounds like I am trying to bolster my own arguments but I feel that it is neccessary to show that I have standard to judge Sifu and his arts.

Here are some of the people I have trained and by this I dont mean attending weekend courses. I mean I have spent considerable time with them, years in some cases. I have trained with Rick Young in JKD , Ip Chun in Wing Chun, I have trained in Hong Kong with some Philipino Martial arts and with the likes of Erik Paulson, Rick Faye etc. I have boxed, wrestled, Thai boxed, also studied other system of internal arts, not just in trhe UK but also in mainland China. Other members of my family have much more experience, knowledge and skills in other arts than I do.


The reason I mention these people is that I think my experiences with them give me the ability to have a fair perspective on this art.

Thanks for you time

Mark

[Zhang Wuji]

Wow, Andrew, Japanese on top of Swiss, English and probably a few others?

Kin Tama

We at Shaolin Wahnam are not going to be defensive. We don't need to be. But I think it will be helpful for you if I explain a couple of things.

You have based your opinions on the video clips. So far as I know, you are the first person in this forum who has commented on the standard of the sparring shown in the video clips. I have seen comments about earlier clips in other forums, so your comments are not surprising. You were probably expecting lightning fast movements with fancy footwork, and i don't really think that is a wrong expectation.

But there are two things you need to understand. The first is that what you see on the video clips as viewed through a PC is very different from what actually transpired. Depending on your PC and connection, the movements may range from very sluggish and slow to staccato or jerky. In case you think that I am trying to explain everything by blaming your internet connection, I am not. I am just pointing out one of the factors which may have coloured your opinion.

You also do not have the advantage of witnessing in person the actual sparring that took place. I have and have also participated in some sessions. The fighting is much faster than may be assumed from watching the video clips.

Second, if the movements are really slow (not as a result of the video clip quality), it may be deliberate. Sparring in Shaolin Wahnam is not meant to pit two students in a life or death battle. It is meant to train them systematically and therefore movements may be slowed down when necessary.

On the sparring of international champions which you derided, you may wish to note that Grandmaster Kai took down several armed assailants (I think 7) in as many seconds, landing 3 of them in hospital. They were not armed with plastic chairs or rubber batons but steel knives and a gun. Does that give you an idea of his speed when in combat as opposed to friendly training as depicted in the cliip?

[shaolin_mike]

How about if some experienced Wahnam kungfu students made a clip showing some fast sparring just to demonstrate that Wahnam kung fu is not in fact slow?
I too noticed that the clips seemed kind of slow but I took it for granted that it was a training session not an actual fight maybe other people have different expectations when they watch the clips.

[Andrew]

Some excellent comments and observations.

I am, again, a bit pressed for time. However, on the speed of the sparring -- yes it is slow. What you see is training. We do not train without purpose. So each training sesssion, each short sparring (whether free, sem-free or pre-arranged) is done with purpose --- and the purpose is never just to please spectators. If we wanted to please spectators we would do some "Kung Fu dancing".

In the clips you are talking about, specific skills (as Mark has so eloquently stated) were being trained. The videos have been presented "as is". There has been no editing, no multiple takes, no predefined movements, no practice runs, nothing but live "action" as it happened. So why present the clips at all if they are not meant to please spectators nor to demonstrate fast fighting? It is, amongst other reasons, to show how we train. We have nothing to hide.

I, as many others here, have seen clips presented on other sites. How many of them are unedited, not choreographed and presented "as is"? I guess practically none. How many of them actually show exponents using their REAL martial arts style in TRUE free sparring? Few if any.

One of the important aspects of sparring in our school is that the two (or more) involved in sparring work together as partners. There is no all out fighting and everyone understands that each is trying to learn from every exchange. We use the Kung Fu techniques and skills when we spar and do not revert to other forms of fighting.

If you want to see Shaolin Wahnam members fighting at full speed for "real" then you will have to wait a bit I think. Other video material is being prepared but it is unlikely that full speed, full force sequences will be released. The preparations for competition participation, however, is under way with the "Warrior Project". There will be plenty to see at the competitions.

Andrew

[Kin Tama]

Hey great, im glad to actually get replies ,thats why i guess i bothered posting in the first place, as i said before im not stabbing at anyone person, and definately not Sifu Wong Kiew Kit. If he can do what he teaches then thats impressive but thats him not an entire school of students and i am adressing the students as a whole.
Obviously He must be doing something right to be getting so many students
However the biggest problem i believe nowadays is the "Wong fei hong" could do the no shadow kick so hung gar must be good, or the shaolin monks of 2000 years ago could stamp the floor and blow holes in it and theres photos of the temple to prove it so it must be good.
However in practise we dont see people doing this, and this is what i was stabbing at on this forum, the problem of the one finger zen can beat iron body but what about golden bell could it deflect the "hitting the cow from over the hill?"
This is unfortunately in our era not exactly the most common site, but on this forum its as if everyone can do it ,a matrix-esque school of shaolin wahnam, then i load up the pics and i nearly cry.

I read about "flowery forms and ....." sorry cant remember the rest of the phrase, and also read about how other styles arent as good as shaolin as well as the long write up on why shaolin kf is the best. (ok so its polite style bashing)
But then i log in and i see practising that looks like flowery forms and things which dont make shaolin look the best !

Mark A nice post this is what i wanted to hear, you have trained with quite a few people all of whom are reasonable names, I would like to know what it is that made you settle on wahnam school, what did it offer you that the others didnt?
Zhang wuji - i downloaded the video clip and thats not why it was slow, but yeah good thinking thanks, now like i said im not saying anything about Grandmaster Kais abilities i am just saying what i saw, maybe he did maybe he didnt , martial arts world is full of things that occured when no one was there to see them, but as i said, before in a different context , if Mr kai had used those particular techniques he used when sparring on that video clip would he have defeated several armed assailants ? and could he do them fast enough ?

Wahnahm ch, I agree with what you say about the video clips not meant to show people kicking each others head in , but the problem that i find is that even as slow i find each technique to be awkward and illogical, One reason that i called it low level is this, to sum it up each move you make as a counter attack to the opponent should put you one step closer to winning and him one further away, as to say like a chess game, for example moving to one side and pitting your two hands against the opponent only being able to reach you with one hand.Or on a higher level just shifting the whole body out of the way and striking at the same time as the opponent is entering.
I didnt see this, i see people moving back into one stance forward into another, down in one up in another. Does this make sense?
Its all good to say he punches i go into cat stance then i move forward into bow and arrow and hit, now what if he punches and then he punches again and again, you are back in cat stance and its slower for you to move forward into bow and arrow. Than it is for him already moving forward.
So then we say but when i move back into cat stance i block and break his hand using my "insert shaolin consummate skill" or "instert chi mastery skill" Which again goes back to the first point which maybe THEY could do it but WE cant , not yet anyway.

I do look forward to the results in practise of the warrior project i remember 7 years ago actually thinking if this ever falls through i would want to join up. It then dissapeared for a few years to reappear a couple of years ago.
Why do i look forward to it because we never ever see a TMA or TCMA winning any international competitions.

[Jonny Say]

Dear Kin Tama,

Another point to note is that many clips on the site present beginner level sparring after (in some cases) a couple of hours training.

As far as the seniors sparring that has been explained by my Sisook's.

I would erge you to research the experience of one of the international champions (My Tai Sipac) Kai as he is world renowned and was a very successful full contact fighter. I have had the opportunity of training with him on the "warrior project" and I can assure you he can handle fast speeds!

If a world renowned master of many other styles and successful competition fighter chooses to learn from Sigung and spar at a slower speed (in the video) don't you think there is a good reason for it?

All the best

[Kin Tama]

One small thing i didnt reply to kin tama which means golden balls is actually referring to good luck and is not meant as an insult it comes from the tanuki which is a racoon like deity which has super large balls (yes down there) called kin tama which are super lucky.
Also j-say i looked for any background info on Mr Kai and i could not find anything , outside of the wahnam website and yes as i mentioned to mr Mark A also He studyied with people considered as top teachers and ended up at shaolin wahnam , Mr kai being a jujitsu champion i remember reading if my memory serves me right, also settled on Wahnam so again i ask why ? What stood out for Mr kai that made him deem wahnam superior.

[Antonius]

Have you seen the videos on my site?

http://www.zenergyarts.com/video.htm

Also, like Mark, I have studied with some big names. You can see them on my lineage chart here:

http://www.zenergyarts.com/picts/Lineage.jpg

I choose to study with Sifu Wong because I feel that he is the best of the best. Whether or not that comes through in videos is unimportant to me. It comes through in person, and that's the way I judge genuine masters.

[Andrew]

However the biggest problem i believe nowadays is the "Wong fei hong" could do the no shadow kick so hung gar must be good, or the shaolin monks of 2000 years ago could stamp the floor and blow holes in it and theres photos of the temple to prove it so it must be good.

I have also heard that Wong Fei Hung was a Master of the no-shadow kick but I don't know anyone who personally witnessed it (mind you if you could see it it wouldn't be a no-shadow kick would it ). And the holes in the floor, as far as I know, were not from a single stomp but from students repeatedly stomping in the same place for years. But don't get me wrong, I also do not doubt the greatness of such past Masters.

However in practise we dont see people doing this, and this is what i was stabbing at on this forum, the problem of the one finger zen can beat iron body but what about golden bell could it deflect the "hitting the cow from over the hill?"
This is unfortunately in our era not exactly the most common site, but on this forum its as if everyone can do it ,a matrix-esque school of shaolin wahnam, then i load up the pics and i nearly cry.

I haven't seen anyone here claiming to master the art of One Finger Zen . Yes, some of our members do have some special abilities and skills, but not all of them by far and not all have the same ones.

.....i see people moving back into one stance forward into another, down in one up in another. Does this make sense?

Excellent observation. It certainly makes sense as you have seen that we practice what we preach i.e. we train to fight in stances and stances are extremely useful and important when fighting. Had the videos shown fast, furious and fierce figthing you (or at least many others) would have missed this important point. Again, without understanding the practice session being filmed, it is not easy to draw the correct conclusions of the material you see. This could be considered a weakness, but I see it as a strength --- you would not have started this thread without those videos

Andrew

[Jamie Robson]

Kin Tama

shaolin monks of 2000 years ago could stamp the floor and blow holes in it and theres photos of the temple to prove it so it must be good.

You would take a photo of a 'hole in the ground' as concrete proof? Yet dismiss footage of some of the Greatest Martial Artists on the Planet? (Fact, not opinion).

If you walked into our School with this attitude, you would soon find the door slamming in your face. I hope that once I’ve been practising for 14 years, I’ve learned more about respect and diplomacy than you have.

[Kin Tama]

Nice lineage and nice website
I downloaded the first video clip of your sparring and the other video clip of mr Kai defending against kickboxing.
Now this clip shows exactly what i mean by low level technique look at how mr kai is standing in the opening scene a kickboxer would destroy that leg, they wouldnt stand there from 2 miles away throwing 2 half hearted jabs at the middle of a solarplexus which are too far away to reach ,neither would it be possible to block them both with the "wing chun lookalike block" simply because they would be way past your forearm or even elbow by stepping in all theway that fist would be at your head.Not so far back.
Any how you could argue that you wouldnt let them get to your head, fine np but then you could argue you would already have dropped your guard from the low kick entry,
So we moveto move number 2 looks like the most basic karate style block to a kick and then take down ala judo's o sotogari, no marvelous shaolin skill here.
This is repeated a lot of times , not taking into account that said opponent might ever turn to change angles and counter attack.
Followed by lots more take downs that look like choy lay fut / wing chun and then the film finishes.
Again no disrespect to kai , nor am i knit picking , i just wanted to discuss why you guys felt this is so superior to anything you learn white belt in any karate class.

Now to ZAsparring4
first 20 seconds see 2 people moving backwards and forwards this is bad very bad as its easier to take 2 steps forward for your oppenent than it is for you to take 2 steps back or for you to go back then forth.
Also this is a trade off of i block and punch you block and punch and this goes on.
What is the point of this ? I dont get it no body is more advantageous or less advantageous by doing this, now respectfully towards Sifu Antonious for posting himself which shows a higher level of what is learnt at wahnam
again i fail to see the point in the next 20 seconds of video, what is happening here is the same again with kicks, back forth back forth. Nor do i see a higher level.
So i watch the rest of the video and i see the same thing repeated over and over again slowly nice looking text book block punch etc etc. But i fail still to see the point.

Now i know it sounds like im being mean or trolling or whatever , but if you were to analyse this for me could any of you explain either in the first video what sets shaolin wahnam so much higher than other styles and in the second video what the point is !!
Do you guys actually understand what i am asking or what i am saying ?

[Kin Tama]

What was said about the holes in the floor and wong fei hong is meant to state that too many people go by what is said and not what they have seen. Or what they can do . It was semi sarcastic.
Jamie R respect and diplomacy are good if i had no respect for shaolin wahnam i wouldnt bother even posting up, i would sit on another forum and "take the piss" as other schools do, this i dont find productive as it doesnt lead to anything.

On a more productive note wahnam ch states about fighting in stances being a strength i want him to expand on this in the same way this is what i posted about sifu antonious video clip. I still find it a weakness when practised in this way.
I just added this line in as an edit.
I want you guys to imagine i am the competition, you have just trained this team of wahnam warriors and they go out and they find that not everyone has trained like they do or agree with their methods, and i represent that verbally on this forum. Now in competition you cant say oh he is being rude obnoxious or trolling so why do it on the forum.

[Jamie Robson]

Kin Tama

A Martial Artist should demonstrate his abilities in everyday life.

One way to assess this is in the way he communicates. I can tell from your posts that your level of skill is on a par with your level of respect. My perception from the energy of your posts reinforces this opinion.

One argument you have put forward, is that we are a School of talkers. If you feel so strongly, why do you continue to talk? Would you not get a clearer answer by asking for permission to visit one of our Schools?