God versus Science

[Alex McLeod]

My question now: Can you still say its "free will" for making the same decisions automatically or is it just reaction?

But generosity needs no train.
You should just give because money (in this case) belongs anyway to the Lord. This is my view because I decided to follow Christ as I believe in him and therefore I would do it because I should do it. So just do it.

I want to quote the bible, matthew, chapter 7, verses 7-11

"7Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

8For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

9Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?

10Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?

11If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him? "

I know your intent and its good but Its not the situation I was referring to. In my example... someone asked for a bit of money and not for food.

Two points about this.
1. If generosity does not need to be trained, why does God ask you to do so? For, if I'm not mistaken, "training" is equivalent to "consistent practice". I believe that the reason is because generosity is a trait that can be developed, and having a generous spirit is important for spiritual cultivation.
2. What you have quoted is irrelevant to the situation. That quote is describing what God will do for a person who asks. Of course I would give my child (if I ever have any) what he asks me for. But not all the time and when he(she?) asks for them. And unlike God, I will filter the things that are bad for the child out, because God assumes that we know what is best for ourselves. We should, but we often do not. If the child asks for a serpent, should I just give him a rattlesnake and hope for the best? If the child asks for poison, should I not tell him 'no' and give him good food instead? If a person on the street asks for money, and the money will do them harm, should I not help them in some other manner?

I disagree... You just could not use it because there was nothing happening to use it. Free will is combined with actions and even no actions.

An example:
You and I play chess. Its your turn. You play as u decided to do so. Then its my turn. I wait. What do you do? You also wait as you want to play chess with me you have to wait til my turn is finished.

Does not mean that your will is not free. You can stand up and watch television... or just wait and think about your actions in future. If I play then it is the point when you can use your free will again referring to the chess game.

You want to end the chess game and for that you sometimes have to wait til a point comes you can do something.

If we have decided to have a game of chess, that was the decision. Throughout the game of chess, both of us have decided to follow the rules of the game, which state that I cannot make my move while you are still deciding on your move. However, if you or I want to end the chess game, we don't have to wait for anything, even consent of the other player. Just get up and walk away, as you said. That would effectively end the game.

Living in an illusion of no control?
Dont you mean living in an illusion of control?

People do think they have control. If its an illusion they become sad and they will come to a point of a decision. One sad point is suicide as they cannot see another way or dont want to see another way. They decided to achieve something they cannot achieve or there is something missing in life. they keep their head up by painkillers of different kinds.

As everyone has a hunger for something which in my example I filled with Jesus Christ.



For I just want to live peacefully so that I can go the way of peace. It needs no training as I believe the Lord is peace, joy, love, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, humility, and self-control. Yes and its based on experiences. what Jesus Christ has done I can and shall also do through him as it is the will of the father.

No. People have all the control over their lives that they truly need. It is not a lack of control that causes a person who sees no other way out than suicide to kill themselves. It is a perceived lack of control. There is always a way out, if you look for it. There are never only two choices. If there are only two choices for anything in front of you, refer back to my previous statement.

I say "illusion of no control". Why? Judging from your statements and your excessive use of Bible quotes you are probably a Christian. How then do you reconcile your position of "illusion of control"? For according to the Bible, God is everywhere and is nowhere. God is all things, and nothing. That means that God is everyone. God can do all things, correct? If all persons are God, and they only have an illusion of control, then you are saying that God cannot control his creation. Therefore, your conclusion that people are suffering from an "illusion of control" must be false based upon the premises that God is omnipresent and omnipotent, which are very basic premises by which a Christian should be held.

Following from this logic, if there is an illusion in play, it must be the "illusion of no control". Now, if you readers were paying close attention, I gave only two choices, and violated the rule in the paragraph two prior to this one. The other choices are there, but these two are the most likely suspects. For example, another reason for people having seemingly no control over their lives is outside forces, and because I'm arguing against a Christian right now, that is a non-starter for the very same reasons "illusion of control" cannot be correct.


I'd love to continue, but I must sleep now, or my body will yell at me to do so for quite some time. Of course, there are other options here too, as indicated in one of Sifu's Question and Answer series when someone asked about using meditation instead of sleep. But I like sleep. I often dream very interesting things, and they entertain me and my friends.

[AndrewBill]

Two points about this.
1. If generosity does not need to be trained, why does God ask you to do so? For, if I'm not mistaken, "training" is equivalent to "consistent practice". I believe that the reason is because generosity is a trait that can be developed, and having a generous spirit is important for spiritual cultivation.

You should be generous because it pleases the Lord. He asks it because men usually aren't generous. You should also love your enemy. And you should also forgive others. I don't train that. I understand why it shall be that way. Understanding needs training and not free will.

2. What you have quoted is irrelevant to the situation. That quote is describing what God will do for a person who asks. Of course I would give my child (if I ever have any) what he asks me for. But not all the time and when he(she?) asks for them. And unlike God, I will filter the things that are bad for the child out, because God assumes that we know what is best for ourselves. We should, but we often do not. If the child asks for a serpent, should I just give him a rattlesnake and hope for the best? If the child asks for poison, should I not tell him 'no' and give him good food instead? If a person on the street asks for money, and the money will do them harm, should I not help them in some other manner?

I only showed this up because I was talking about money and you made a link to food.

You think God would give a Child a serpent if that child asks for it?
For God everything is possible... would be a very beautiful nice serpent

And what if the people do not want to be helped in some other manner?

Anyway... an example which Sigung once said:
When your wife wants to eat simply fish with you she wont be happy if you take her to the best stake restaurant of the whole country because what she wanted was just to eat simply fish.

If someone asks you for 1 Dollar... you can give him food and everything you think is good for him... but maybe he just needed 1 Dollar more to buy a ring for his wife

If we have decided to have a game of chess, that was the decision. Throughout the game of chess, both of us have decided to follow the rules of the game, which state that I cannot make my move while you are still deciding on your move. However, if you or I want to end the chess game, we don't have to wait for anything, even consent of the other player. Just get up and walk away, as you said. That would effectively end the game.

If you decided to walk a road... you can still decide to stop, turn or go further. But there is no need to think about that til you come to a point where you have to decide... for example... it starts to rain.

No. People have all the control over their lives that they truly need. It is not a lack of control that causes a person who sees no other way out than suicide to kill themselves. It is a perceived lack of control. There is always a way out, if you look for it. There are never only two choices. If there are only two choices for anything in front of you, refer back to my previous statement.

You want to go 5000 steps along a road... When you have already walked 3000 steps and you are at the end of the road - a deep gap. go further or do something else?

I say "illusion of no control". Why? Judging from your statements and your excessive use of Bible quotes you are probably a Christian. How then do you reconcile your position of "illusion of control"? For according to the Bible, God is everywhere and is nowhere. God is all things, and nothing. That means that God is everyone. God can do all things, correct? If all persons are God, and they only have an illusion of control, then you are saying that God cannot control his creation. Therefore, your conclusion that people are suffering from an "illusion of control" must be false based upon the premises that God is omnipresent and omnipotent, which are very basic premises by which a Christian should be held.

According to the Bible God is everywhere, yes.

According to the Bible God is not every thing.
--> God is not evil, God is not hate
--> If you got a car crash... God is not scrap metal.
--> If a glass cracks it does not mean that God cracks
--> But as God can be everywhere he can be there.

According to the Bible God is not nothing.

Is he in every person? Thats new to me. He is only in the people who want him and say: "yes, you are my father". It does hurt him to hear people say: "I don't want to know my father."

You havent read the very first post of this thread right?

here I quote for you:

'Now, sir, is there such a thing as evil?'

Now uncertain, the professor responds, 'Of course, there is. We see it everyday It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man.

It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil.'


To this the student replied, 'Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light.'

The professor sat down.

P.S.: the student was Albert Einstein.

I also do not think that you are reading the bible. If you do then I'm sorry that I said that but if you really havent read it please do not refer to it.

There are many people who think that the fruit adam and eve have eaten is an apple which is not written in the bible.

Following from this logic,

Which logic? :S maybe not referring to bible... it would be easier.

if there is an illusion in play, it must be the "illusion of no control". Now, if you readers were paying close attention, I gave only two choices, and violated the rule in the paragraph two prior to this one. The other choices are there, but these two are the most likely suspects. For example, another reason for people having seemingly no control over their lives is outside forces, and because I'm arguing against a Christian right now, that is a non-starter for the very same reasons "illusion of control" cannot be correct.

Tell me then in which world do you live right now? Are you now living in a world where you have the choice and control?

For not losing our path:

As I said I believe we are living in a world where we all have free will.
And free will still cannot be trained in my view.

I'd love to continue, but I must sleep now, or my body will yell at me to do so for quite some time. Of course, there are other options here too, as indicated in one of Sifu's Question and Answer series when someone asked about using meditation instead of sleep. But I like sleep. I often dream very interesting things, and they entertain me and my friends.

Well chosen
I think also someone else could get to that decision without trying to train his free will...

Good night

[Alex McLeod]

This is getting to be quite enjoyable. I haven't had a good long discussion since I quit frequenting my previous forum.

According to the Bible God is everywhere, yes.

According to the Bible God is not every thing.
--> God is not evil, God is not hate
--> If you got a car crash... God is not scrap metal.
--> If a glass cracks it does not mean that God cracks
--> But as God can be everywhere he can be there.

According to the Bible God is not nothing.

I will quote for you Jeremiah 23:24: "Shall a man be hid in secret places, and I not see him, saith the Lord? Do not I fill heaven and earth, saith the Lord?"

Now, using this quote, I shall arrive at God is evil, good and neutral. God is hate, love, and indifference.

You agree that God is everywhere, so I shall start with that premise.

If God is everywhere, then there is nowhere that he is not, correct?
If God fills heaven and earth, then everything within heaven and earth are also a part of God.

So, there exists no place where God does not exist.
And, there is no thing that is outside of God, as long as those things are contained within heaven and earth.

Evil is contained within the hearts of men, and lower beings. Men are in the realm of earth, and are thus filled with God. Therefore, all which is contained in man is also filled with God, otherwise God cannot truly be said to fill heaven and earth. Therefore, Evil is filled with God. By the same logic, all the emotions that man experiences are filled with God, including Hate.

Addressing God not being nothing is much easier than trying to reason in words that God is everything. A vacuum is an area of space that has no matter within it, ie. nothing. God fills heaven and earth, and space is within earth as the term is used in the Bible to indicate the places where humans are allowed to live. Therefore, God fills nothing.

Now, in order to avoid confusion over the word "fills", let me explain. When you "fill a cup" with a liquid, you are not actually filling the cup itself. It is merely that the liquid is within the boundaries set my the cup. If the liquid were within the cup itself, the cup would be quite useless, for the liquid would be able to pass through it (we did just "fill it" after all), as the liquid has passed into the cup itself, it will also pass straight through to the other side. The closest analogy for filling something is the electrons that fill an electrical wire.

You think God would give a Child a serpent if that child asks for it?

Did you read the verses that you posted? Yes, he would. God gives a person exactly what they ask for, though the "how" is almost never how they expect it.

Anyway... an example which Sigung once said:
When your wife wants to eat simply fish with you she wont be happy if you take her to the best stake restaurant of the whole country because what she wanted was just to eat simply fish.

Leaving aside that I cannot stand the sight, smell or taste of fish except in rare cases of sushi(I know, I'm weird), I'm not talking about wives here. A person's wife is treated by that person in a completely different manner than the way that person treats everyone else. Sifu is a perfect example of this. In western culture, hugging a person as an expression of gratitude is perfectly acceptable, and yet to Sifu, that is something that should be kept within the close family. So, Simu could get a hug, but some strange person on the street who asks for hugs? Definitely not. Comparing what you would give to your wife with what you would give to someone who just walked up to you for the first time is like comparing apples with donuts(I'm not entirely certain which is which).

If you decided to walk a road... you can still decide to stop, turn or go further. But there is no need to think about that til you come to a point where you have to decide... for example... it starts to rain.

You can do many things other than stop, turn, and go further. For instance, you could suddenly start whistling a tune, or jump, or go faster, or slow down, crawl, roll, etc.. The fact that you are already walking down the road indicates that you have decided to do so previously. You have already thought of it, and are now executing your decision. However, many people are currently walking down roads that they were told to walk down. They can see no other options because their minds are clouded. Can that truly be free will if they have no ability to see other options?

Their will is still there, but they can make no other choices than to continue, or to stop. How can that be a free will? If it is forced (by imagined constraints) to make one of two choices, then it is not free. For example, if I force someone to either work for me or threaten that I will do something horrible to them or their family, they are not free. Now, their constraints are not imagined by themselves in this case, but by me. However, there are still choices outside those two I gave them. They could call the police, because it is illegal for me to make someone work for me under threat. They could strike out at me while I sleep, poison my food, or shoot me dead.


I feel I'm losing coherency now, so I will stop until a latter time.

[AndrewBill]

This is getting to be quite enjoyable. I haven't had a good long discussion since I quit frequenting my previous forum.

I will quote for you Jeremiah 23:24: "Shall a man be hid in secret places, and I not see him, saith the Lord? Do not I fill heaven and earth, saith the Lord?"

This means God is everywhere, yes.

Now, using this quote, I shall arrive at God is evil, good and neutral. God is hate, love, and indifference.

You haven't experienced the Father of heaven, right?

Galatians 5, 22-23
"But the holy Spirit produces love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, humility and self-control. There is no law against such things as these."

Matthew 12, 27-28
"You say that I drive out demons because Beelzebub gives me the power to do so. Well, then, who gives your followers the power to drive them out? What your own followers do proves that you are wrong! No, it is not Beelzebub, but God's Spirit, who gives me the power to drive out demons, which proves that the Kingdom of God has already come upon you."

Matthew 12, 33-36
"You snakes - how can you say good things when you are evil= for the mouth speaks what the heart is full of. A good person brings good things out of his treasure of good things and a bad person brings bad things out of his treasure of bad things."

If God was evil he would not have given the 10 commandments to us...
If God was evil he would not have created man...

Because he was so full of love that he build a friend.

There is no other reason why an almighty, omnipresent and all knowing God should create a man with free will.

Love cannot be forced because its based on free will and God would not control it because it is not love anymore if he controls it. We decide if we want to go back to our father or if we do not.

If God is everywhere, then there is nowhere that he is not, correct?
If God fills heaven and earth, then everything within heaven and earth are also a part of God.

When you do not accept God's present he leaves you...

Isaiah 59,1-2
"Don't think that the Lord is too weak to save you or too deaf to hear your call for help! It is because of your sins that he doesn't hear you. It is your sins that separate you from God when you try to worship him."

So, there exists no place where God does not exist.
And, there is no thing that is outside of God, as long as those things are contained within heaven and earth.

God is everywhere but he does not act everywhere. You have to differ these things.

Where God does not act because people want it that way there evil and darkness and hate and injustice can take control.

It can be dark but you know that he is everywhere... he is not darkness even you are in the dark. Just say: "Lord I need light" and there will be light but he does not always listen because of your sins.

Evil is contained within the hearts of men, and lower beings. Men are in the realm of earth, and are thus filled with God. Therefore, all which is contained in man is also filled with God, otherwise God cannot truly be said to fill heaven and earth. Therefore, Evil is filled with God. By the same logic, all the emotions that man experiences are filled with God, including Hate.

Your not filled with God if you hate. God is love and where hate is there is no love because love do not act there. But in every second you call him hate does vanish. even in the middle of the darkest place light can come suddenly as the Lord is everywhere.

God is everywhere but does not act everywhere... He left a place where we can decide if we want him to act or not.

Addressing God not being nothing is much easier than trying to reason in words that God is everything. A vacuum is an area of space that has no matter within it, ie. nothing. God fills heaven and earth, and space is within earth as the term is used in the Bible to indicate the places where humans are allowed to live. Therefore, God fills nothing.

vaccuum is often a word of science which exclude God.

vaccuum means emptiness and freedom and not nothing.

Now, in order to avoid confusion over the word "fills", let me explain. When you "fill a cup" with a liquid, you are not actually filling the cup itself. It is merely that the liquid is within the boundaries set my the cup. If the liquid were within the cup itself, the cup would be quite useless, for the liquid would be able to pass through it (we did just "fill it" after all), as the liquid has passed into the cup itself, it will also pass straight through to the other side. The closest analogy for filling something is the electrons that fill an electrical wire.

God can fill a cup, no problem with that. If he would act there it cant be possible to break that cup but maybe he Got no interest in acting in a cup.

Did you read the verses that you posted? Yes, he would. God gives a person exactly what they ask for, though the "how" is almost never how they expect it.

Have you also read my quote of Isaiah?
A willing son can surely ask that... a son who decided to follow the Fathers will and who want to take the sins away which separate him to his father.

The question is if a such a Son would ask for a serpent.

A son who does not want to know his Father but asks him for a serpent... I don't know. not sure but God is generous. Maybe if he asks him more than just one time.

Leaving aside that I cannot stand the sight, smell or taste of fish except in rare cases of sushi(I know, I'm weird), I'm not talking about wives here.

I also was not talking about people who asked for food.

A person's wife is treated by that person in a completely different manner than the way that person treats everyone else.

Like by a willing son of the Father, the Father do treat him in a completely different manner.

But even more... the Father do worry much more about one sheep which gets lost than the 99 sheep which are safe.

In western culture, hugging a person as an expression of gratitude is perfectly acceptable, and yet to Sifu, that is something that should be kept within the close family. So, Simu could get a hug, but some strange person on the street who asks for hugs? Definitely not. Comparing what you would give to your wife with what you would give to someone who just walked up to you for the first time is like comparing apples with donuts(I'm not entirely certain which is which).

I shall hug even an enemy.

You can do many things other than stop, turn, and go further. For instance, you could suddenly start whistling a tune, or jump, or go faster, or slow down, crawl, roll, etc.. The fact that you are already walking down the road indicates that you have decided to do so previously. You have already thought of it, and are now executing your decision. However, many people are currently walking down roads that they were told to walk down. They can see no other options because their minds are clouded. Can that truly be free will if they have no ability to see other options?

Still you will come to that point where the road ends and you cannot fulfill your will anymore.

Their will is still there, but they can make no other choices than to continue, or to stop. How can that be a free will? If it is forced (by imagined constraints) to make one of two choices, then it is not free. For example, if I force someone to either work for me or threaten that I will do something horrible to them or their family, they are not free. Now, their constraints are not imagined by themselves in this case, but by me. However, there are still choices outside those two I gave them. They could call the police, because it is illegal for me to make someone work for me under threat. They could strike out at me while I sleep, poison my food, or shoot me dead.

To go further or do something else... in doing something else you can do so many things. You already decided to just walk the road and not jump or do anything different. Before that decision you could go that road or do something else.

But still its a question of to go further or do something else.

I feel I'm losing coherency now, so I will stop until a latter time.

Til next time

[Andy]

God vs Science

“The ultimate truth is beyond words. Doctrines are words. They’re not the Way. The Way is wordless. Words are illusions”
- Bodhidarma

God vs. Science

Id like to summarise the thoughts which produced my particular interest in this thread. God vs. Science is of course a very topical debate these days, one often stereotyped as Belief vs. Fact.

We all have foundational assumptions of a Religious (internal) and Scientific (external) nature and these assumptions are always relative to one other; they always interpenetrate. As an example, consider this thread where all of the participants sense of religion was relative to common scientific assumptions such as the current theory of evolution.

Many many centuries ago a similar cross cultural debate would have been far more religious in character (I.e. involving gods, spirits, fate, etc) - our modern mind produces a different religiosity from that of the past.

That religion is an issue of belief is commonly acknowledged, however it is not often acknowledged that scientific understandings are also belief systems of a kind.

For instance I earlier posted some common scientific assumptions including:

Randomness, Survival-of-the-fittest, Competition

These are not only assumptions, they are Ideas. Furthermore many of our larger theories are just that - theories. Pictures in our mind built up from inferential sources of data and deductive reasoning. Belief systems because there is always a gap between experimenter and the experiment, observer and the observed.

I find it extremely useful to identify scientific assumptions as belief systems because science is often considered independent (objective) of belief. However there is no objectivity in life; only subjectivity. Also, science is often considered by society as a value neutral.

However, science (and indeed western medicine) are not value neutral - they are value laden.

An example:

Consider the action of breaking a living thing into pieces in order to appropriate knowledge of life. To do this, life must be defined as a human utility, and it is destroyed for those ends. Knowledge gained may then be employed to further alter life and further human utility.

So there are many beliefs, perceptions, assumptions and values involved in this decision making process.

The God vs. Science issue can also be seen as an eternal Rational vs. Intuitive issue.

I spent many years of my life (such as during my studies) being extremely rationally focused. This eventually led to me becoming mentally and physically unhealthy; in fact I came to what amounted to an existential crisis before I began to look inside for meaning.

The difference I find in myself operating on intuition rather than primarily on rationality and according to scientific belief systems cannot be understated.

When you exist only in rationality, life can end up consisting of Your Intellect vs. The Universe. I remember the way my mind would be constantly active; strategising and accumulating data. The rational mind understands its own mortality and fears its own destruction. With rationality alone there is always a baseline of fear in your life. You end up firmly trapped in Self and Other.

As an example:

For a decade or so I never remembered any dreams. I also never had any experiences out of the ordinary.

• Why would I have remembered my dreams? In a random universe where my mind is basically an expression of the survival processes of my genes then what worthwhile knowledge could be gained from dreams? Why internally cultivate when all that is inside is blood, nerves and bones?

When I began to self-cultivate I began to have all kinds of wonderful experiences, culminating in high level qi gong and the extraordinary knowledge that can flow from it (Cosmic Shower, Dan Tien breathing).

I can now remember my dreams often, and Ive had evidence in them of such things as clairvoyance and precognition.

Most of all, Im healthier and happier than ever and my mind is calm (most of the time ).


My own experience of living inside scientific belief systems was a lesson along the lines of :

"The mind is everything. What we think we become."

- The Buddha

This underlined for me the necessary of protecting the understanding that ultimate knowledge is internal and comes only through an Empty Mind.

"If you use your mind to study reality, you wont understand either your mind or reality. If you study reality without using your mind, you’ll understand both."

- Bodhidharma

The fact is that the God vs. Science issue only exists on one level:

• For a dualistic religionist, scientific understandings may be denigrated on issues of belief alone.

• For a dualistic scientist, religious understandings may be denigrated according to (unrecognised) beliefs.

For someone who internally cultivates (the archetype of the Mystic) there is no duality; internal cultivation aids external understanding. Internal cultivation is the True Science - the true quest for understanding, and it is a quest that gives deeper insight into external science. There is no God vs. Science; there is only mutually reinforcing internal and external discovery.

Ignorance vs. Awareness

However, the fact that Intuitive knowledge is primary produces the eternal gap between Ignorance and Awareness.

Mystic: We have the Mango.

Scientist: Im very interested in this Mango. Where is it?

Mystic: You must experience.

Scientist: Experience!? Show me your Mango first then I’ll think about experiencing it!

Etc

This is an eternal impasse which can only be bridged through the scientist/rationalist coming to accept the necessity of personal experience.

This eternal impasse is the reason behind the attraction/repulsion dynamic of our school.

Steve is of the opinion that beliefs were at the basis of the differences on this thread. Knowledge was at the basis of the differences on this thread. Manjusri (Wisdom) is symbolised with a sword because dispelling ignorance is an active process.

As long as the school has sacred knowledge then this dynamic will continue:

This attraction/repulsion dynamic is no longer present at the Song Shan temple. Im sure many of our detractors' opinions on martial arts - Montague, Kaitan, Schermitore, etc - would be welcome there (they do Samba). Im also sure many of our philosophic detractors - Old Liu, Bagua Monk, etc - opinion on the internal would also be welcome there (they don’t believe in Qi).

The sword of wisdom is no longer wielded at Song Shan.

I for one trust that the attraction/repulsion dynamic will continue. While it exists differences such as those seen here may occur from time to time. While SW maintains the existence of experiential internal phenomena then we will be criticised, while SW members collectively agree on points others don’t understand (based on shared experience) then we will be criticised, while the internal school discipline is strict then we will be criticised….all the way down to being labelled as “Cultists”.

"When the man of low capacity hears Tao, he laughs loudly at it."

- Dao de Jing

Qi Flow is all the evidence a detractor would need for this after all

Shaolin Wahnam members have the gift and privilege of internal, sacred, knowledge. This must be both cultivated and protected so that the Arts do not degrade as at Song Shan. This must be promoted because it would benefit all human beings to come to at least an understanding of the importance of Meditation and an Empty Mind: how much of the physical, mental, social and cultural suffering of our times is due to this ignorance of the internal, and of the Divine?

This may be our responsibility, but it should also be our joy. We should take great pride in our own achievements and of how far we have come, and we should take great pride in the achievements and the international growth of the school. We can all look forward to the future and to benefits undreamed of for one and all….

With Deepest Thanks to Sifu Wong and the Past Masters,

Andy

[AndrewBill]

“The ultimate truth is beyond words. Doctrines are words. They’re not the Way. The Way is wordless. Words are illusions”
- Bodhidarma

These words are illusions then, too?


God vs. Science

Many many centuries ago a similar cross cultural debate would have been far more religious in character (I.e. involving gods, spirits, fate, etc) - our modern mind produces a different religiosity from that of the past.

That religion is an issue of belief is commonly acknowledged, however it is not often acknowledged that scientific understandings are also belief systems of a kind.

I think we have to differ religion and faith.

If I compare the religions Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism and Hinduism I personally find two points which they have in common:

1. man is there where he should not be
2. man is not there yet where he should be

If I would ask someone of any of these religions if she or he is already there, i mean already reached the goal, everyone would say "no, not yet".

Someone (I forgot the name) wrote so many books about one theme: "religion is sin"

In a religion you try to go the way of few people before you. To be religious can be forced to somebody. You can be born in a religion. Its culture, mode, tradition, lifestyle.

Faith you cannot force. Not everyone who says she or he is a christian is a real christian or who says he or she is a buddhist is a real buddhist.

I know many who are not really living a christian way or a buddhist way even they call themselves christians or buddhists.

As an example:

For a decade or so I never remembered any dreams. I also never had any experiences out of the ordinary.

• Why would I have remembered my dreams? In a random universe where my mind is basically an expression of the survival processes of my genes then what worthwhile knowledge could be gained from dreams? Why internally cultivate when all that is inside is blood, nerves and bones?

Like me... also for a decade I never remembered any dreams. In my case it was a fear of no control. It has changed few weeks ago.

I take the opportunity to say that I have become a christian just few months ago even I was educated in a catholic sense from the beginning. My whole life has changed then and I learnt to put down my fear.

Now I trust my whole life to the hand of the heavenly Father who will take care of me.

I can now remember my dreams often, and Ive had evidence in them of such things as clairvoyance and precognition.

Yes, dreams are crazy

Most of all, Im healthier and happier than ever and my mind is calm (most of the time ).[/I]

So do I.

The way of spreading love and peace has been always a part of my life but now through my faith (Jesus Christ) I learnt how to go that way better and more efficient.

Through him I have become also very carefree, no matter what is happening.

"The mind is everything. What we think we become."
- The Buddha

This underlined for me the necessary of protecting the understanding that ultimate knowledge is internal and comes only through an Empty Mind.

"If you use your mind to study reality, you wont understand either your mind or reality. If you study reality without using your mind, you’ll understand both."

- Bodhidharma

Yes.

In my belief the very good world which the Bible tells us is described in two chapters, means in the most Bibles: two pages.

The very first two chapters of the Genesis...

Creation of the world and paradise.

What makes that world different from our world now? It is said that after the creation of man the creation was VERY good and not only good anymore. The next 1500 pages or so do just describe how to get there again.

So my conclusion is... in chapter three of the Genesis happened something.
And as you will know it is the fall of mankind.

What happened there exactly?

God said Adam and Eve shall not eat the fruit in the middle of the garden. If they do they die.

The snake said to Eve: "God just doesn't want you to become like he is." and Eve ate from the forbidden tree. And Adam also ate the fruit.

Eve in that moment distrusted God.
Adams and Eves eyes were opened and they noticed they were naked. soon the covered themselves and did hide from God which then came into the garden.

They got banned and death came into that creation.

Similarities to the world of today

Two things makes our world not very good anymore: distrust and death.

Thats why there is sickness, war, liar, poverty and so on.

We are not anymore in the safety hand of the Lord.
We got separated from one another (Adam and Eve covered themselves) and we got separated from God (Adam and Eve did hide from God).

Everything because of distrust. To go back it needs trust again.

And as we know: Trust/Faith and love cannot be forced because they are based on free will (again)

To know me in the safety hand of my Father really changed everything. Because I experience that I know its true.

I did not use my mind, but my heart.

Ignorance vs. Awareness

However, the fact that Intuitive knowledge is primary produces the eternal gap between Ignorance and Awareness.

As for me Ignorance is the absence of love ^^

I for one trust that the attraction/repulsion dynamic will continue.

Surely it will.

Qi Flow is all the evidence a detractor would need for this after all

Or a life with the Father

Shaolin Wahnam members have the gift and privilege of internal, sacred, knowledge. This must be both cultivated and protected so that the Arts do not degrade as at Song Shan. This must be promoted because it would benefit all human beings to come to at least an understanding of the importance of Meditation and an Empty Mind: how much of the physical, mental, social and cultural suffering of our times is due to this ignorance of the internal, and of the Divine?

But the art could be misused, right? As long man is evil the risk is alive. I trust in the only good and this is the Lord. As long as I do this I think and I very hope I cannot misuse this beautiful Martial Art of Shaolin Wahnam.

[Steve Clarke]

Hi Charles,

I was refering to Sifu Jeffery Segal, Shaolin Wahnam, Australia, and his post that started this thread.

I have not been following this thread, even though it seems interresting, I just enjoyed the first post.

Regards,

Steve.

[Charles David]

Hi Steve,

Thanks for that. Looks like I need to review this thread from the beginning.

You sure you don't want to read all twenty seven pages?


Still,

Charles

[Andy]

Hi Andrew Bill,

The purpose of my earlier post was philosophic, not a specific reference to Buddhism.

Your new-found faith has obviously been beneficial to you and I wish you all the best on your journey.

This Science vs God thing is a very dry subject for this festive season of cheer and goodwill....

Wishing everyone a very Merry Christmas!

Andy

[Mbyte]

I've spend many years thinking about it and I have concluded a few things myself that would coinside with the wahnam mind. That's why I'm so intrested in the Chi Kung. I say that science and the path to "god" are the same. The sceptic would say (the likes of richard dawkins) that the two are completely diffrent but they are not. In a purely scientific point of view science doesn't conflict the buddist way and the buddist was doesn't conflict with the science way. I would say a better way to under stand god and to understand spirituality is to forget the names and experience the existance of what they are suppose to define. You all do this by doing Chi Kung.

Science has a few problems. Sceptical Science basically concludes that there is no definition. In other words everything is an illusion. Scientists would argue that enviromentalists are anti progress and they reverse the advancement of society even though in a purely scientific sense advancement and progression can't be defined. First off all what is the society progressing towards? How are we more advanced then we were 200 years ago? At first there may appear to be an answer but then you realise that we are the very same but the buildings around don't mean anything.

Science is all based in the physicality of this world. They try their best to exclude our existance form the mathematics. We interfere with the results of experiments.

When one realises that when a person cries at the idea of his meaningless life all the answers are there in that moment. Why would I cry at thought of meaninglessness? Why do I do what I do if there is no meaning? I cry because I am not happy. Why am I not happy? why does crying feel bad? It is obvious then that there is a balance to be maintained. There is a balance that is unexplainable by physicality. Why would the scientifice physical evolutionary system and the universe create a self contained experiential illusion to keep it's self happy and alive for no reason. It goes against osscasm's razor. Things could have been much simplier.

You then realise that ones experiantial pain is the worst thing in existance and one should not harm others. Rocks don't mean anything but experince does.

I think this is wear science and spirituality meets and can both agree on. This is wear science ends and spirituality begins or this is wear reality ends and reality begins. The words are words and they do not matter.

Of course this is why I find Wahnam Chi Kung so amazing. It is based on the very things I concluded. The Chi Kung is much more profound. I realise that to continue on such line of thought that it is similar to buddist concepts. The thing I like the most is that the physicality is meaningless but when one is balanced the physicality gets an attributed meaning. Like Sifu Wong says Chi Kung enhances everything you do. Such a concept like attributed meaning to something meaningless would have made my mind very uneasy and upset but then I learn't about the moral aspect to govern such attributed meaning.

You then realise that everything you had as a child was givin to you all you had to do was better you charecter. Things do mean something like they did before you ever thought "but it doesn't mean anything"

Well thats my view on things.

[AlexBaranosky]

Science AND Religion

This is a very lively discussion. Into which I will toss some ideas.

Eve bit the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Why do they go to the length to describe the tree in such strange terms?: "The knowledge of good and evil."

This goes back to what Alex McLeod was saying, God is everywhere.

My understanding of the Adam and Eve story is that it is an explanation that you leave the Garden of Eden that is life, when you choose to indulge in knowing about good and evil. I am pronoiac; it is my belief that God (if you choose that term) permeates every moment of my life. There is nowhere where God isn't. And only in my 'knowledge' of evil does my paradise break down.

I have had many situations occur that weren't what I THOUGHT I wanted. I could have pointed at them and cried EVIL!!! But that would have been ignorant, because that situation was always in hindsight just what was best for me. I cannot speak for other people.

I have put the fruit back on the tree. I unlearned Good and Evil.

[Leap]

Indeed Alex

Before the eating of the fruit, all things were considered good in their own way. After eating it, somethings that were previously considered good were thought to be evil (such as nakedness). This is what expunged humanity from paradise.

....and why you find Jesus teaching "Judge not" and "love your enemy"

[ryanberg]

I've always liked the story of Adam and Eve and the tree of knowledge. I find all religious documents fascinating, and especially like drawing possible similarities between what the different religions seem to be saying.

I find the tree of knowledge story to be a great summary of Buddhist teachings. By eating from the tree, you are able to know good and evil - or the duality of existence and life. But, this comes with the price of death - or the impermanence of all things good and evil. God promised Adam and Eve immortality in the Garden of Eden if they didn't eat from the tree of knowledge. This could be interpreted as enlightenment/eternal bliss.

What's really interesting is that its called the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Not the tree of knowledge of evil. To eat from the tree is to know good as well as evil. Perhaps like Alex said, we can learn to be selective and choose to see only the good in God's creation. But that good is still impermanent. By indulging in either side, we are kept from the tree of life (immortality) and banished from Eden (bliss).

Just one interpretation. The fun but confusing part of religious teachings is that they are subjective. Which is why I prefer zen

Ryan