Small Boy Catches Snake vs Pull (Lead) Horse Back to Stable

[Andrea]

Dear Wahnam Family

While going over the patterns in the 12 TJQ CS I realized that I am not very clear about the difference between the two patterns "Lead (or pull) horse back to stable" and "Small boy catches snake",found in CS 10 and 11 respectively. This is probably due to learning them from videos only and without a partner to see the effects . Here what it looks to me so far:

• "Lead Horse Back To Stable" is both a gripping and a felling technique, executed in bow-arrow stance, and used as a response to a middle attack. It uses the momentum and if the partner does not respond he will end up on the ground.
• "Small boy catches snake" on the other side is "only" a gripping technique. One sinks into horse ridding stance and it is used to counter low attacks such as precious duck/low vertical punch etc. If the partner does not respond his arm might be broken or with advanced qinna skills his energy points blocked.

The hand positions for both seem to be the same - ellbow and wrist.

Are these differences correct?
Are there other differences?
In which other context can they be used?


Andrea

[Zhang Wuji]

Hi Andrea

I had a lot of fun with your question as I went back to kinesthetically try out the differences I had in mind. I think your observations are most penetrating.

It will definitely help if you use the title "Lead Horse to Stable" as opposed to "Pull", because therein lies the essence of the technique.

Interestingly, these two pattern names appear to come from Shaolinquan. I wasn't sure "Small Boy catches Snake" is used in classical Taijiquan texts as I have never seen it, but i have seen it in some other Shaolin classics. Many secrets are in the pattern names themselves. With that in mind, let me share what little I know....

"Lead" is used in three sequences / sets that you may be familiar with - the basic Shaolin sequence 14, Wahnam Taijiquan sequence 10 (Shoulder Strike) and the Dragon Tiger Set. In all three cases, the technique is applied with different footwork but the basic technique is the same.

First, you lead the attack by moving back, and then
a) moving forward diagonally (Shaolin 14)
b) moving sideways diagonally (WT 10)
c) moving further back (Dragon-Tiger set)

Next, the footwork is
(a) step forward with one leg to trip the opponent,
(b) move sideways to his unbalanced side,
(c) shift the stance to a backward bow stance.

The hand grips can be hard or soft. My own experience is that this technique requires a little more force than "Small Boy". Again the name gives a hint. It is a small boy, not a strong man. Here, one is dealing with a horse, which is one of the strongest animals in Chinese zoology (it is a symbol of strength that is often mentioned with the dragon). Because the Horse is reluctant, you need to use its momentum against it, but at the same time, have a certain amount of force to control it.

The grips therefore will incorporate a joint lock at the wrist and elbow (I usually miss the wrist though. In the case of WT 10, this should also have the effect of locking the shoulder, which is why the counter is by necessity a shoulder strike.

"Small Boy" as mentioned above, is used with minimal strength, and note too, it is against a snake - slippery, agile and fast. The grip is more penetrating, and when executed properly does not require a joint lock (at least not that I know of). When I first tried out sequence 10 on my Shaolin training partner, he was fascinated by it (the counter more so). After my qinna course in June, and Sifu's enlightening instructions then, I realised that the trick to "Small" is in the grip (I think you need to ask Ronny about this, because I don't want to give out a secret in public). But the main point is that it is a quick deft movement that requires little footwork. If you practice Seq 10 with flow, you will notice that the low punch is very fast and unobstrusive. Any wasted or slower movement in the counter will result in a hit by the opponent. Another teaser - the arm will also be broken but not where you might expect (I can't execute this yet, but Sifu showed us where the attack should end. It was truly a wow moment)

The hand positions are indeed elbow and wrist for both, but there is certainly a difference. Maybe you would like to try it on a partner and see if you can feel the difference?

[8nsteen8]

-

Finally a thread about Taijiquan teqniques Thanks Andrea for initiating and to Zhang Wuji to respond.

I was a bit cautios to reply since i havent practiced it that much so i waited for someone to step up. And both your posts is very enlightening.

I wonder since you lead the horse you actually dont intend to put it on the ground right?

I noticed that its important as mentioned to focus on that it is a Horse you are leading. Focus your force to much on the gripp will hamper the execution of the teqnique.

When i do catch snake i find it small, turning and extremly quick and here i get the feeling that i could "easily" just break the opponents sholder. And walk away with his arm. Is that the correct feeling?

/Niklas

[Irina]

Hi Andrea
It will definitely help if you use the title "Lead Horse to Stable" as opposed to "Pull", because therein lies the essence of the technique.
........
"Small Boy" as mentioned above, is used with minimal strength, and note too, it is against a snake - slippery, agile and fast.

Thank you Zhang Wuji for explaining this in such picturesque wording. It really reveals to me how much I am still a beginner. There is a Russian proverb saying that you live and learn for 100 years but you will still will die as a silly person.

[Andrea]

Dear Zhang Wuji,
Dear Niklas and Irene,

Thank you for your time and these rich explanations. I have printed them out and am looking forward to spending some time on it over the weekend. From now on I will definately pay more attention to both the name of a pattern and to its place within a combat sequence. When vizualising "Leading a horse" and "catching a snake" I can see such a difference in the movements and the goals.

I must admit that I find the TJQ CS 10-12 very challenging, mainly because without partner and previous experience of either the higher SKF or TJQ CS, I find it hard to imagine how my partner is going to move and thus how I move or what the effect of a certain pattern is. But I imagine much will be clearer after the Intensive course.

Another little blockage that got brushed away, by your approach of looking at the names, is the idea that gripping and locking techniques, are the domain of a "tiger" style martial artist, and excuted by a strong men with big hands and a terrible grip. Well obviously if a "small boy can catch a snake" maybe there is more to it and I shouldn't consider it as "you won't use them really techniques".

There is still a long way to go for me too. Irene I'll join you at the beginner's bench . But we have started and as long as we continue we will progress step by step won't we. So let's continue....

I am very much looking forward to crossing hands with you all in just a bit more than 2 weeks in Penang!

Andrea

[Zhang Wuji]

I am very impressed that you got as far as you did. I remember during my intensive TJQ course, all of us had problems with Seq 2 before the course started, and here you are, already looking at Seq 11.

Seq 10 - 12 are the most difficult, from a technical perspective. I had a great deal of problems with 11, and when I got back, I had to review the videos several times. Yet, Seq 1 - 3 are in my view the hardest to do right. Can you guess why? And, amazingly, despite all the sequences i have practised, it was Seq 3 (maybe 1) that I used in a recent, most unexpected spontaneous sparring session, when I was caught off guard by the sudden initiation of "hostilities".

How I wish I could go....may not even be able to get away for the TJQ review course in December. It is lonely practising the TJG sequences all by myself. It is high time I trained my Shaolin partner in these sequences

[Irina]

Carry Tiger back to Mountain

Dear Andrea, Niklas and Zhan Wuji,
since this thread is already there I have a similar question concerning the differences between two sequences.

I am talking here about the White Crane Flaps Wings Set.

There is Small Child Catches Snake followed by Carry Tiger back to Mountain - and I have nver understood the difference there.

The Small Child Catches Snake is now clear for me, thanks for beautiful explanations of Zhan Wuji. However I do not really see the the purpose of Carry Tiger back to Mountain in comparison to this. I do not even feel the difference in the chi flow when practicing.

Would you please advice?

And, Andrea, I am really willing to spar with you! I would just need a ROUND TOIT. Sorry to be so absent.

[Andrea]

Had somebody told me I would try to learn 12 TJQ CS in 6 months some years ago, I would have said, "no way" ... and there I am trying to learn.

My goal for the Intensive was to have a good overview and to know at least the sequencing of patterns/structure for each CS, then try and go more deeply into each CS, where my experience and limited skills allows me to. I have managed to do the first part and started a bit on the second part. But I am sure I will find out soon enough how many things I have missed, learnt wrongly and still have to learn.

However I would not have even reached this basic stage without the help of so many generous people from our Shaolin Wahnam family.

• My thanks goes first of all to Sigung for encouraging me to look into TJQ and for the wonderful course in June, where he taught us the abriged combat sequences. These sequences and the skills learnt during the course were a tremendous help.
• My thanks also goes to my Sifu (Roland), who is an amazing and generous teacher. Without the weekly Shaolin Kungfu classes and the skills learnt there, I would not have had the courage and basis to get started.
• I was also very privileged to get such a generous support from Joan Siguma. The two days in March introducing me to WTJQ, the many answers to my questions and all the encouragement and enthousiasm she has shared with me are a priceless gift.
• The list could go on ... my thanks also belongs to all my Irish Shaolin Wahnam sisters and brothers, especially Maria and Peter, for the shared fun and practice in March and June. To all my Swiss Kungfu brothers and sisters, especially also those who during our open Friday practice sessions were willing to let me try TJQ patterns as a response to SKF CS and thus get a little hands-on . ... And last but not least to all those posting on this forum, which gave me so much great information about learning from videos, TJQ patterns and CS.

CS 1-3

Seq 1 - 3 are in my view the hardest to do right. Can you guess why?

I am not sure but the most simple things in our school have shown themself as being the most profound ones so maybe because they are apparently simple but actually very profound ? They include the essence of TJQ (4 fundamental TJQ techniques: peng, lu, qi, an, also taught via "Grasphing a sparrow's tail) and require correct "starting with the leg/ controlled by the waist" movement? ....
...
One thing that keeps intriguing me is why CS3 is CS3. I would have expected it to be CS 1. Just like in SKF the first sequence with two patterns - one attack/one defense. Instead CS 1 already introduces more complexity with a low vertical punch and CS 2 gets even more complicated and then CS3 seems simpler again with "just" white snake/imortal. ... But then WTJQ seems to demand mental flexibility in many ways ...



I better get some sleep. I was planning to get up early tomorrow to get a bit more practice time in the morning and this post is already much longer than planned. Apologies to anybody still reading it.



Irene, I am sure others can answer your question better, my understanding is that "Carry tiger back to mountain" is a felling technique (a throw), while "Small child catches snake" is a gripping technique. Practicing them I think with a partner will make the difference clearer. As for the round toit (had to google the word - never heard it before) I don't have one - but I am looking forward to our common practice once the time is right for you . BTW I just had an ice cream with my mother today at the Tuerlersee.

Andrea

[Andrea]

There is Small Child Catches Snake followed by Carry Tiger back to Mountain - and I have nver understood the difference there.

I was just watching the videos from Ireland (day 3, tape 2, at +/-14') to check something and saw Sigung is refering to the the grip in CS4 (Abr.) as "Catch the snake". This means unless I am mixing things up, we learned them both in June.
In CS3 (Abr.) the initiator responds to fierce Dragon with Carry Tiger Back to Mountain. And in CS 4 (Abr.) the response to Chop the Hua Mountain is Catch the Snake. What looks very different from CS11 is that in CS4 (Abr.) there is a step involved and the partners arm ends up twisted, while in CS11 it seems to be executed from HS without any further step and no twisted arm. I hope I am not mixing things up and this helps Irene.

Back to practice now

Andrea

[TaiChiPete]

Andrea,

Thanks for starting this thread. I too have been renewing my practice of these last three tricky sequences before the Intensive. I think it is reasonable to find them hard (especially the first time) to learn as they are technically the most difficult - I certainly hadn't managed to get the sequence before my first intensive.

find it hard to imagine how my partner is going to move and thus how I move or what the effect of a certain pattern is.

I think as you practice with a partner on the course you may find all the sequences difficult as you will have to adjust footwork etc. to get correct spacing - which isn't often a problem with your imaginary partner! Sequence ten is particularly difficult from this perspective - but you are correct it will be easier (at least to know whether your doing right) with a partner.

One question I have...

I am talking here about the White Crane Flaps Wings Set.

There is Small Child Catches Snake followed by Carry Tiger back to Mountain - and I have nver understood the difference there.

In my practice I use an eagle claw in the White Crane Flaps Wings Set, and call the move eagle catches snake. Is this really the same move in sequence 11? Perhaps someone else's memory serves better than mine on this point?

Peter

[Andrea]

Dear Peter

I am looking forward to meeting you at the Intensive.

I think as you practice with a partner on the course you may find all the sequences difficult as you will have to adjust footwork etc. to get correct spacing - which isn't often a problem with your imaginary partner!

Yes I had a taster for CS 1-6 during a little training session with Maria in June . There is definately a long way to go. ... I hope during the course I will not be too much of a hindering to all those of you, who have practiced WTJQ for a long time. I'll do my best.

In my practice I use an eagle claw in the White Crane Flaps Wings Set, and call the move eagle catches snake. Is this really the same move in sequence 11?

Thank you Peter for this. The set pattern says "Eagle". I did a search on "Eagle catches Snake" and there are two Qinna videos for a pattern called "Old Eagle Catches Snake" that look to me (which means little ) similar to Small Boy Catches Snake in WTJQ CS 11/ CS4Abr.: Here: http://www.shaolin.org/video-clips-3...chin-na02.html (see also: Lead horse to stable on this page). And here:http://www.shaolin.org/video-clips-3...chin-na07.html
Are they the same? And thus could the Eagle Catches Snake from the set be the same as well?

The names seem rather different: an old eagle and a little boy ... I would expect an eagle to be fast and very precise in his movement. An old eagle might be a bit slower, but due to his experience even more precise (focus on energy point, rather than hard grip?), while a little boy would maybe be faster, but because of the missing experience, be less precise in his movement? But this is just speculation based on names ... Maybe it is a question to note down for the course, if none knows?
Andrea

[Zhang Wuji]

Hi Andrea and Peter

I must confess. Much of what I have been writing was "coloured" by what i learnt at the Qin-na course in June. I am not writing purely from a Wahnam TJQ perspective, so my apologies if I have confused you.

While i did say the names are useful guides for me, it is the essence of the techniques as I learnt them from which I drew the inspiration for my posts. The "Eagle catches Snake" I learnt is the same as the "Small Kid", so the difference is not really real to me. Coincidentally, i had just reviewed my QIn-na videos last night, and I am certain that the application of the grip is the same. for both pattern names.

But if we want to go into subtleties, if it is the "Eagle" pattern, then you want to effect the grip with an eagle claw. And extrapolating from there ( and this is where we just getting needlessly intellectual), a kid's grip will depend on a light touch and sensitive fingers. I also remember Sifu saying that the grip will depend on the physical size of your hand versus the size of the opponent's arm, so when it comes to the crunch, when it is time to adapt to the combat situation at hand (pun not intended initially), these little differences don't mean anything.

(Bear in mind, the translation "Old Eagle" may be confusing, because if you translate the Chinese word for eage literally and word for word, you get "old eagle", but actually, it is just "Eagle").

I love Seq 3 because although it seems "easier" than Seq 1 or 2, it is the sequence that trains one's reflexes against lightning fast consecutive attacks (as well as how to deliver them). The trick is to perform the actions with body-work as it is very tempting to just use "arm power". And combined with Seq 1 with variations, I have found that Seq 1 and 3 to be a most potent attack-defence sequence.

In CS3 (Abr.) the initiator responds to fierce Dragon with Carry Tiger Back to Mountain. And in CS 4 (Abr.) the response to Chop the Hua Mountain is Catch the Snake. What looks very different from CS11 is that in CS4 (Abr.) there is a step involved and the partners arm ends up twisted, while in CS11 it seems to be executed from HS without any further step and no twisted arm.

Er, what is "HS"? Small Kid/ Eagle followed by Carry Tiger is certainly not easy to do, because it involves a change in footwork (assuming a left Bow stance for the first pattern). And it depends on how the opponent react - if he pulls back, you move forward, as is performed in the set. If he staggers forward, you can move back to fell him. Personally, I would simply switch to a low stance Snake if he moves forward (I think the alternative translation is Snake creeps down or something).

Hang on - I just got off my chair to try out the two patterns again. Done with the typical TJQ circular flow, there was a gentle rush of qi as I made the transition from Eagle to Carry. Funny I never felt that before. So to answer Irina's question, there is definitely a qi flow effect. As to whether it works....where's my training partner???

[Chiahua]

Er, what is "HS"?

Horse stance maybe? The discussion of eagle grips is interesting to me--I didn't realize that qin-na style grips would be used in the context of orthodox taijiquan (single whip is an exception that comes to mind).

[Andrea]

Yes I meant horse stance with "HS". Please forgive me, I have written the CS as summaries for myself and written it obviously too often in an abridged form.

The "Eagle catches Snake" I learnt is the same as the "Small Kid", so the difference is not really real to me. Coincidentally, i had just reviewed my QIn-na videos last night, and I am certain that the application of the grip is the same. for both pattern names.

Thank you for clarifying this. The qinna videos are very clear and thus very helpful.

I also asked Ronny tonight and did clearly feel the difference between "Lead Horse" and "Catch the snake" . "Eagle/small kid catches snake" looks so simple but it is so powerful. Good we are learning the counter. Where is MY training partner ?? I need an arm *smile.

Andrea

[joko]

Hi Andrea and Peter,

Did both of you attend the recent Intensive Taijiquan Course September 2008?
If yes, then, was this topic presented to Sifu in the Course?
I'd like to hear your conclusion.

Thanks,
Joko