Dispelling Ignorance and Untruths - A Case Study of Baguamonk1's Posts

[Jordan]

Don’t be an agent to degrade the traditional Chinese martial arts

Baguamonk1,

Again I am disappointed at your response. Earlier, when you did not respond I thought you were considering the points I mentioned, especially in my two earlier posts on “A Lesson on Mental Clarity and Coherent Presentation” and “Principles and Practice, Facts and Opinions”, and benefiting from them. Obviously, my hope was premature. Your latest post shows you are still not ready to benefit from this discussion.

I am not going to waste time on you. I have a few more posts. Don’t flatter yourself that these posts were written just for you, though as I have said earlier you could be the one who would benefit the most. Notwithstanding this, your ignorance and untruths provide the material for my writing.

I have enjoyed writing the posts and have benefited much. I believe many other people, including my students, have benefited too. Whether you are going to respond to my posts or are going to learn anything from them is your business.

And if you don't think the cultural revolution had anything to do with this, well then that is your opinion.

I do not know how you wrongly conclude that I thought the Cultural Revolution had nothing to do with the pathetic degradation of the Chinese martial arts. The fact is that we believe the Cultural Revolution, during which time traditional arts such as kung fu and chi kung were almost wiped out, had a great deal to do with the degradation of Chinese martial arts.

But this was certainly not the only cause. Luckily, genuine traditional Chinese martial arts were passed down in lineages outside of China before the Cultural Revolution set in. Thus when China lost its traditional arts inside of China, outside of China they still continued to flourish in various lineages.

Case in point, we in Shaolin Wahnam are incredibly fortunate to inherit these arts from the two lineages which merge in Sifu. These are the Lai Chin Wah lineage, from the Venerable Chee Seen and the Ho Fatt Lam lineage, from the Venerable Jiang Nan.

Other practitioners, including those who practice Tai Chi dance and Shaolin gymnastics, may have also learned from authentic lineages that can be traced back to genuine great masters in the past. For example, many amongst those who practice Tai Chi dance today can trace their lineage back to the great Tai Chi Chaun master, Yang Lu Chan. So then, why are they practicing Tai Chi dance, or practicing Kick-Boxing while pretending it to be Tai Chi Chaun? There are two main reasons.

One, their lineages span many generations and often with gaps in between. For example there may be 30 generations between the Tai Chi dancer found today and the great master Yang Lu Chan. At some point along their lineages, the essence was lost and all that was left to pass on was the external forms.

Two, most of the masters in the past were conservative, and many of the lineage holders might have started teaching their students before they themselves had learnt the secrets from their masters. As a result the subsequent practitioners in these lineages would have missed the secrets, the very essence of their arts. All that was left to pass on was their external forms.

We are lucky not to be beset by these two problems in Shaolin Wahnam.

Firstly, the Venerable Chee Seen and the Venerable Jiang Nan were the last of the real Shaolin monks who escaped from the burning of the Shaolin Temple. Although this great historic event happened about 150 years ago (spreading Shaolin kung fu all over the world) we are blessed to be only 6 generations from the Venerable Chee Seen, and just 4 generations from the venerable Jiang Nan. Now compare this with most other lineages today. Most may span over 20 generations!. We are very lucky indeed.

Secondly, Shaolin Wahnam is incredibly open with secrets. We even share with the public secrets that many masters may not even tell their advanced students! More significantly, we do not merely talk about secrets, we help our students to directly experience them.

I believe that despite spending some time practising your three internal arts you have gained little or no experience of chi or internal force. This is glaringly obvious to us just from reading your posts (though you may not realise it).Do you know how long it takes a student who is a fresh beginner to experience chi or internal force in Shaolin Wahnam? Less than a month in most cases, and if he takes a course with Sifu, he usually experiences it in his first lesson! As Sifu often says, if a practitioner could have such result in three years, he would be happy.

Now what have all these to do with this thread? Everything! It is posts like yours that help in the rapid degradation of Chinese martial arts, perhaps more damaging than the Cultural Revolution.

We in Shaolin Wahnam have personally experienced the truths of the traditional Chinese martial arts as revealed in their classics, and we have derived great benefits from them. We are willing to share our knowledge and experience with others in order to restore the greatness of these arts. If you do not believe in us, that is fine, and we sincerely wish you success in whatever arts you choose to follow.

But, although you yourself may not realize it, your posts in this and other forums on Chinese martial arts in general, especially when you wrote as if you were an expert, greatly undermine people’s confidence in the traditional Chinese martial arts. You become an agent to degrade the very arts you yourself practice.

[Jordan]

Chi is Real

Baguamonk1,

How many times do I have to clarify that I never said that I don't believe in Chi or internal force....That is just ridiculous. I tried to explain some things in different ways, and when clarification was needed, I for the most part did (although I lost track of some topics). Just because I think "internal force" is a lame excuse to not hurt the poor, "brutes" of MMA competitions, does not mean I do not believe in it.

We never said you said you did not believe in chi or internal force. But your posts suggested that you only paid lip service to chi and internal force, that your understanding of chi and internal force was incorrect or incomplete, or that you had no direct experience of chi or internal force.

For example:

I said Chi was an outdated term and it was used to generalize various processes in the body, because there was alot more than simply one.

This statement indicates your lack of both philosophical knowledge as well as direct experience of chi. If you understand chi philosophically, you would not have said it was an outdated term. The fact that the term is still being widely used today shows that it is still currently useful. Indeed, it would be difficult to explain many things in internal arts, traditional Chinese medicine and feng shui if one does not use the term “chi”.

Saying that chi was used to generalize various processes in the body is a clear indication that you do not have direct experience of chi. Because you did not know how it felt to experience chi directly, you used some overall description which you hoped could fit what a chi experience would be like. Your description that it was used to generalise various processes in the body could be applied to many things, like blood flow, metabolic processes, psychological functions, mental impulses, etc. which can suggest a vastly different impression about what chi is.

Nevertheless, we are glad to notice your change of attitude and viewpoints in your recent posts. In one post in another thread, you actually said that chi existed.

My post about the Chinese Men and Women who do not believe in "Chi" was there to show just how the condition exists in some places, including China itself. The cultural revolution, and alot of changes in China has alot of people practicing Taiji, and other methods of internal arts for health. Clearly there are MANY exceptions, I was just trying to illustrate the condition of some of the modern chinese, and practicioners.

It is true that many people today, Chinese as well as non-Chinese, do not believe in chi. If you had also mentioned that despite all this, chi was real, then the impression you conveyed would be different.

But when you made the statement in the context where you disparaged Chinese martial arts in favour of Jeet Kune Do and Mixed Martial Arts, which were known for their disbelief in chi, the impression I got from your statement was that chi was unreal, and countless Chinese men and women confirmed that.

I am glad that you have clarified this point now. Thank you.

[Charles David]

Dear Siheng,

Thank you for your marvellous efforts.

Dear Nicky Sijat,

Thank you for your heartfelt post. Your feelings and experiences reflect my own.


As Always,

[Jordan]

Modernized Wushu is Different from Traditional Kungfu

Baguamonk1,

Some people of the newer generations, if not educated or cultured by their siblings or family, often grow up without the knowledge or actual experience of the past generations, and the heritage they left behind. Some of the "modern" thinkers, think differently, and often times discard the old traditions and philosophies without even trying to decode or understand them.

Unfortunately many practitioners today fall into this category of newer generations of people without the knowledge and actual experience of the past generations and heritage, and who often discard the old traditions and philosophies without even trying to understand them. For example, many lack the knowledge and experience of traditional Chinese martial arts, and discard them for modern sports like Kick-Boxing and Wrestling. To us, it is like discarding gems for stones.

Just because they are Chinese, it does not mean that they practice kung fu, taiji, or even have a basic understanding of the taoist/buddhists philosphies and how it applies to martial arts. Or perhaps they do, but they don't believe in it. Just like there are skeptics and Aethiests here in the states when it comes to religion.

Your comments confirm an important theme that we in Shaolin Wahnam often express, and that is the arts we practice in Shaolin Wahnam are elite and rare. For some odd reasons, some people take objection to the mention of an art being elite. They want their art to be commonplace. That is their view, and we do not wish to argue with them. But for us, we are proud that we practice an elite art, and we are not afraid to admit it.

Because of the Cultural Revolution and other factors, much of Chinese martial arts and chi kung as well Taoist and Buddhist philosophies in China today has lost their essence. For example, most Chinese martial artists today cannot use their own martial arts for combat, most chi kung practitioners today never have any experience of chi, and many students of Taoism and Buddhism merely study Taoist and Buddhist philosophies rather than practice them in their daily lives. Applying martial arts for combat, experiencing chi in chi kung, and practicing Taoist and Buddhist teachings in daily lives are the essence, but most people have missed them today.

In Shaolin Wahnam we do not merely study these arts and philosophies, or just talk about them. We practice their essence. In Shaolin Kung fu and Wahnam Tai Chi Chaun we apply picture-perfect Shaolin and Tai Chi Chaun techniques, including proper stances, for combat. In our chi kung we enjoy chi flow. In our daily life we are relaxed, happy and free, which are characteristics of Taoist teaching, and we are simple, direct and effective, which are the hallmarks of Zen.

The state of kung fu itself is different. As many of you have said, there are lots of wushu monks out there, and alot of BS. How shaolin is practiced now (even the image), is seemingly different form how it used to be practiced. You guys train it more authentically than the Wushu crap that is out there, it is not that wushu is crap, but rather that people mistake Wushu for the traditional methods.

I am glad of your statements here. They show similar views with what we hold in Shaolin Wahnam.

But we never said that a lot of what the wushu monks did was BS. We also never said that wushu was crap. In fact we find wushu a magnificent art, and the wushu monks have attained a very high level in their art.

But we are in total agreement with you that modernized wushu is vastly different from traditional kung fu, and that we also lament many people mistake wushu for traditional kung fu.

We would also like to thank you for your compliments that what we train is more authentic.

Anything that does not have perfectly bent arms, ridiculously and dangerously low stances, fast flashy movements, is often misjudged as inferior to the newer flashier stuff. And there ARE some people out there who learn this stuff and think its the same as it was before the cultural revolution!

That is their opinion which they are entitled to hold, and like you, we disagree with that opinion. We also agree with you that the stuff (modernized wushu) after the Cultural Revolution is different from the stuff (traditional kung fu) before the Cultural Revolution.

Like those documentaries out there on the Shaolin temple and just how deadly and effective they are, but we all know they are government-placed monks and they practice wushu. Complete with breaking bricks over the edge of a stair..and only hitting the middle (usiing the stair for leverage) and chi gong tricks...

Yes, here we agree with you that these government-placed monks practice modernized wushu and not traditional kung fu.

We are also aware of the trick you described, but we prefer not to highlight it.

Again, I wasn't saying that it was all "physics tricks" but that what these charlatans did, for the most part, do use them. Those who have the real skill, and real gong fu, do not need "tricks" they have the real deal.

Of course, real kung fu practitioners do not need such tricks. In traditional kung fu circles, these tricks are known as "strongman shows".

[Emiko H]

Dear Baguamonk1,

Please consider that if Sifu Jordan, or the members on this forum were really attacking you personally, they would have simply asked you to leave the forum.

But, because the objective is only to dispel ignorance and untruths, you will notice that the posts made by Sifu Jordan focus on pointing out areas of discrepancy in your own writing, as well as offering the Shaolin Wahnam perspective for juniors and students of this family.

You may have also noticed that there are more than a few instances where people (including Shaolin Wahnam instructors) have expressed their support of you re: your family member who recovered from cancer. If you were being personally attacked, no one would have expressed their support of you.

Furthermore, Sifu Jordan has even thanked you for the areas in which your thoughts were expressed with clarity and precision. Please see below:

The state of kung fu itself is different. As many of you have said, there are lots of wushu monks out there, and alot of BS. How shaolin is practiced now (even the image), is seemingly different form how it used to be practiced. You guys train it more authentically than the Wushu crap that is out there, it is not that wushu is crap, but rather that people mistake Wushu for the traditional methods.

I am glad of your statements here. They show similar views with what we hold in Shaolin Wahnam.

But we never said that a lot of what the wushu monks did was BS. We also never said that wushu was crap. In fact we find wushu a magnificent art, and the wushu monks have attained a very high level in their art.

But we are in total agreement with you that modernized wushu is vastly different from traditional kung fu, and that we also lament many people mistake wushu for traditional kung fu.

We would also like to thank you for your compliments that what we train is more authentic.

In fact, your comments were so strong and derogatory towards wushu exponents that Sifu Jordan had to temper your words and clarify (yet again) that wushu, though "vastly different" from traditional kung fu, is still a "magnificent" art.

This is not about making personal insults towards you or to other people like the wushu exponents. This is about the skillful presentation of truth. Though what you said about wushu may be true, it was unskillful, emotional and could easily be deemed as a personal attack towards all wushu exponents.

Shaolin training is rigorous, Baguamonk1. It is not a path for buttering up the ego, but rather a path for learning how to see and move beyond the ego.

Baguamonk1, from one warrior to another, let me ask you this:

How about learning to see and appreciate the areas of your writing that are clear, just as Sifu Jordan has done?
How about letting more of that same lucidity shine through your thoughts and words from now on?


With Shaolin Salute,

Emiko

[Baguamonk1]

Sure, anything for the precious young malleable minds of novice students I dedicate my words to the study of ignorance and untruths!!

Although I do get tired of this kind of attitude: "Listen, I'm telling you, you're opinion is wrong. I don't care if a couple of decades of human experience and social interaction has somehow turned you into a person with an identity, different than myself. Who cares if you have a preference, agree with my opinion, or I will continue to berate your own opinion, by using my opinion as the basis for argument." Covered up by fancy typing and the illusion of politeness.

Thank you for bringing those posts up Jordan, in your last post. This thread is officially not biased anymore

Well folks, have fun. Just remember students, have a mind of your own, merge intuition with common sense and logic. I guarantee you it will get you far. Don't let anyone tell you what is right and what is wrong, YOU figure that out for yourself. It is unfortunate that you even need this thread to help you to begin with, you are relying on somebody else to think for you, think for yourself, that is all I ask.

Again, you should save your precious time doing something more worthy, like training. But if you truly think you are a Shaolin Warrior/Savior, and this is your objective, then so be it.To each his own. Just remember that they are people too, most of them intelligent in their own right, for them to have doubts is totally normal, and in fact, if they continue training, will only improve them that much more. Taijiquan and Shaolin are precious arts, but what makes you think that you are the only one who holds the true original teachings or that you have to enforce its sanctity? There are many who would say otherwise, everyone has something to offer.

Cheers

[Mark Blohm]

Don't let anyone tell you what is right and what is wrong, YOU figure that out for yourself.

I've practiced for a year and a half, and now I can feel internal force flowing inside of me. I was told it would happen, and it happened.

Mark

[Andrew]

Again, you should save your precious time doing something more worthy, like training.

The time Jordan spends preparing his posts is extremely well spent for many of us including Jordan himself. In preparing his posts, he must formulate his understanding and your misunderstanding in a constructive and complete manner. Doing so enables him to present the information in a clear and concise manner.

Everyone else here (with one or two possible exceptions ) benefit greatly from the clarity and content of Jordan's posts. We also benefit greatly from your posts, Baguamonk1. Maybe not for the reason you originally intended, but that is secondary. So thanks to Bauguamonk1 and Jordan for helping us all to learn.

Andrew

[Molly]

Don't let anyone tell you what is right and what is wrong, YOU figure that out for yourself.

Unless you're receiving instruction from your teacher. They know what is right and what is wrong.

[Charles David]

Dear Baguamonk,

It really is amusing how you are continuing to come here, anonymously, and offer us lessons.

Rather than have Sifu Jordan take on the responsibility of responding to all of your writing, I'll join my sister Molly and take on my small share.

everyone has something to offer.

Yes, some offer treasures, others offer junk.


Taking my pick,

[Molly]

Well folks, have fun. Just remember students, have a mind of your own, merge intuition with common sense and logic. I guarantee you it will get you far. Don't let anyone tell you what is right and what is wrong, YOU figure that out for yourself.

I'm not trying to cause a ruckus here or anything, but I would like to point out to all the students that you learn what is right or wrong through proper practice. Nobody should go figure out kungfu or qigong for themselves, or merge intuition with common sense and logic. That's what their sifu is for. Maybe someday I'll be good enough to develope my own style, but for the time being, I just need to follow my instructions, as does everyone else here. Though you may not realize it Baguamonk1, you are effectively telling everyone here to just throw their instruction out the door, and I feel duty bound to step in and correct that.

Just remember that they are people too, most of them intelligent in their own right, for them to have doubts is totally normal, and in fact, if they continue training, will only improve them that much more.

Anyone is entitled to their doubts about any particular style. It is perfectly healthy for them to address their doubts, but only through proper practice. I couldn't very well throw all of Sifu's instructions out the window- without ever having tried them -and then say Shaolinquan doesn't work. My assessment wouldn't be based on a solid knowledge of the style. I would first have to gain a thorough understanding of it before making any of my own conclusions. Through proper practice I could allay my doubts. Not otherwise.

Taijiquan and Shaolin are precious arts, but what makes you think that you are the only one who holds the true original teachings or that you have to enforce its sanctity?

Well I would believe that my Siheng Jordan feels he has to enforce the sanctity of Shaolin because we take an oath that requires as one facet to train these arts diligently, and another to pass on the arts as they were taught to us. So naturally we must clear up any misconceptions people have. And yes, believe it or not Baguamonk, this is for the benefit of the students, so we don't take false information as fact, thereby possibly hindering our progress. As for the other part of your question, could you please provide us with some concrete evidence that points out where Jordan says he thinks he is the only one who holds the "true original teachings"? I can't find that anywhere here. Until then I await your always saucy replies.
Molly

[Jordan]

How Mental Clarity can Benefit Us

An important theme of this thread is mental clarity. We have to thank Baguamonk1 for that. Responding to his posts which show a lot of ignorance and untruths enables us to practice mental clarity.

Let us take some examples from Baguamonk1’s previous post.

Just remember students, have a mind of your own, merge intuition with common sense and logic. I guarantee you it will get you far.

Without mental clarity, one may mistake Baguamonk1’s advice as valuable. But with mental clarity we can easily tell that Baguamonk1’s words above are hollow and meaningless, although they may sound grandiose. Baguamonk1 has a bad habit of giving grandiose advice which is often wrong, and he may not actually realize what he himself is saying.

Baguamonk1’s advice to merge intuition with common sense and logic is senseless. In principle it is like advising to merge your left hand with your right hand. We use our left hand as well as our right, but when we use our left we free our right, and vice versa. For example, you do not merge both hands to hold a pen to write, you either use your left hand or your right.

Similarly when you use intuition, you do not use common sense (or logic), and vice versa. Your intuition may (or may not) have common sense, but when you trust your intuition enough to use it, you suspense your common sense for the time being. For example, when you are thirsty and a friend gives you a glass of clean looking water, using your common sense you would drink it. But you intuition tells you that it might be accidentally contaminated. So, if you trust your intuition enough to use it, you suspend your common sense and you do not drink the water even when you are thirsty. You don’t merge your intuition with common sense.

Baguamonk1 guaranteed that it would get you far if you followed his advice. If you have mental clarity you would not be misled by him. You would ask, for example, what credentials he had to give such advice. You would think twice before listening to someone who cannot even make statements clearly and coherently. And most significantly, you wouldn’t listen to advice by someone whose posts reveal so much ignorance and untruths.


Let us take another example, and see how an exercise on mental clarity can benefit us.

Don't let anyone tell you what is right and what is wrong, YOU figure that out for yourself.

Again, superficially Baguamonk1’s words sound grandiose, but with mental clarity we can see that his statements reveal ignorance and untruth. It is not just irony but also providence when Baguamonk1 declared at the start of his post that he dedicated his words to the study of ignorance and untruths!

The very nature of education is to let someone tell us what is right and what is wrong. Of course, this someone is not anyone. It is certainly not someone like Baguamonk1 whose posts show so much ignorance, untruth and lack of mental clarity.

When we were young, this someone is someone whom we trust and who has authority, like our parents. Later he (or she) is someone who has mental clarity and wisdom, like great teachers.

Yet, when we are sufficiently wise to make correct judgment, we do not accept the advice and teaching of this someone based on faith alone. We assess his advice or teaching to the best of our understanding and experience.

Baguamonk1 advised that you figured out what was right or wrong for yourself. His advice sounds grandiose but it is not good advice. Not only it may cause you to waste a lot of time, but also you will miss benefiting from the accumulated wisdom and experience of past masters.

That probably is a main reason why despite practicing three internal arts, Baguamonk1 showed a glaring lack of mental clarity and internal force. In the thread on “I have internal force”, instead of listening to and benefiting from those who have internal force, Baguamonk1 was trying to figure out whether internal force was “the result of striking somebody, and having them feel it internally”. Baguamonk1 can try figuring out for years but he would not get the answer. Yet, anyone with internal force knows from direct experience what the right answer is.

Mark is wise. Instead of attempting to be smarter than masters and trying to figure out by him self, he listened to masters whom he can trust to tell him what is right and what is wrong. And he happily reported:

“I've practiced for a year and a half, and now I can feel internal force flowing inside of me. I was told it would happen, and it happened.”

It is unfortunate that you even need this thread to help you to begin with, you are relying on somebody else to think for you, think for yourself, that is all I ask.

This thread has benefited and helped me greatly. I am sure many forum members have found this thread useful and beneficial too.

Don’t you find it a big irony that Baguamonk1 tries to teach others how to think when his posts show that he himself cannot think clearly? For example his statements suggest his thinking is not clear enough to know that the various posts in this thread may help us to have mental clarity so that we can better think for ourselves. Baguamonk1 confuses this with relying on others to think for you, which is precisely the opposite of what these posts can help us achieve.

[Emiko H]

Dear Jordan,

Thank you for your clarification. As always, I enjoy and benefit from your keen insight.

Your sister,

Emiko

[Jordan]

Deriving Benefits from this Thread

This is my concluding post for this thread, unless Baguamonk1 or other persons post untrue statements after this, which require clarification.

The main aim of this thread is to dispel ignorance and untruths as revealed in Baguamonk1’s posts, as part of our on-going effort to present quality information in our forum. Two of Baguamonk1’s posts were chosen for this purpose, and they are Post 51 in the thread “Can a disciple surpass his Sifu”, and Post 47 of this thread.

The first post was chosen because I was appalled not only at its ignorance and untruths but also at the authoritative manner Baguamonk1 presented these ignorant and untrue statements, as if they were facts. When his mistakes were pointed out, Baguamonk1 had the habit of saying others had put words into his mouth or he was quoted out of context. The first chosen post is excellent evidence to prove him wrong. Baguamonk1’s own words were quoted in full and in the exact order they appear in his post.

Shocking as it may be, Baguamonk1 again said that we put words into his mouth or he was quoted out of context. I reckon Baguamonk1 had nothing better to say than these poor excuses. Hence I wrote another series of posts to show the ignorance and untruths of Baguamonk1’s second post. As in his first post, not a single one of Baguamonk1’s own words in the second post had been left out or was quoted out of order.

While the material for my posts were supplied by Baguamonk1’s ignorance and untruths, my posts were not written for Baguamonk1 alone, though he would probably be the one who could benefit the most from them. The posts are meant for Shaolin Wahnam students as well as other forum members who may want to benefit from this debate.

What benefits can we derive from this debate? There are four main benefits:

1. Be able to tell untruths even when they are presented like authoritative statements.
2. Have a better understanding of Chinese martial art philosophy.
3. Be inspired that the practical benefits of Chinese martial arts that were mentioned in classics, but thought to be lost by many people, are still available today though rare.
4. Enjoy some exercise and hopefully improve in mental clarity.

In many ways, the fourth benefit may be the most significant, even for serious martial artists. Having internal force and combat efficiency in Chinese martial arts are of course desirable, but it is having mental clarity that is perhaps the most beneficial in our everyday life.

Practicing genuine internal arts is an excellent way to develop mental clarity. But for those who may not have this opportunity, going over how Baguamonk1's statements, which he thought were true but were shown to be untrue, may provide some exercise in this direction.

One encouraging development is that towards the later part of this debate, Baguamonk1 seemed to have realised his earlier mistakes, though he did not admit it and has changed his views. Some examples can be found in my previous post.

Nonetheless, I would like to thank Baguamonk1 for providing this opportunity for me to crystallize my thoughts on these issues and practice presenting them in a clear, coherent manner. I wish Baguamonk1 success in whatever path he chooses to follow.

Many thanks to all of you who contributed to this thread.

[Andrew]

Thanks for that concluding post, Jordan. Thanks also for the hard work you and others have put in to make this a most interesting and rewarding thread for those open enough to learn from it.

Andrew