awakening and other spiritual experiences and the brain

[ryanberg]

I'd like to post some interesting thoughts I've had on awakenings and other spiritual experiences and how they relate to what's going on in our brains that might be responsible for those "experiences".

I've personally had numerous awakenings. Experiences of my "body disappearing". The world disappearing. Totally letting go of my physical mind and body and connecting with a world without boundaries, "feeling" that peaceful flow of energy that connects everything.

I've also had a chance to learn a little about the brain. How it works to create these conditions we experience on a daily basis....the conditions an awakening is supposed to disconnect us from, allowing us to see what true "reality" is.

However, a part of me has wondered if all those spiritual experiences, including awakening are still just conditions of our minds. Let me explain....

Since experiencing my awakenings through doing chi kung, I sort of had a falling out with my practise. I went through a period where I got into doing drugs, and one of the drugs I tried were psychedelic mushrooms. What surprised me most about my experience with that drug, is that one of the times I did them I had an experience that felt VERY similar to an awakening. Except it wasn't isolated to just a short moment of realization.....it was a feeling that lasted for at least a half hour. That feeling of enlightenment is something commonly experienced by others as well.

I've tried to figure out what connection there might be between the two experiences. From the stand point I've taken on awakening, its hard to think that a drug could create a similar feeling. After all an awakening is supposed to be a total escape of the conditions our minds create isn't it? So how could something that basically stimulates the mind create an experience so close to that?

For those of you not familiar with psychedelic mushrooms, the psycho-active ingredient in them is called psylocibin. This ingredient is what makes the mushrooms "work their magic" so to speak. I've discovered that psylocibin acts on our brains through our serotonin receptors. It actually resembles our own serotonin so closely, that it tricks our brain into accepting it into our serotonin receptors.

I've also learned that one of the roles serotonin plays, is basically regulating our thoughts. As I understand it, there are always many, many thoughts being generated by our brains....but serotonin acts as a sort of filter allowing us to control them. That's why our dreams can sometimes be so bizarre, I think....because when we sleep, all the serotonin is basically called back into "storage" and out of the receptors.

Now, let's try putting these facts together. When I was doing mushrooms, basically all my experience that I'd acquired throughout my life, everything I "knew" about myself and the world around me....almost totally disappeared. When I would think about something, say my parents. Or driving a car. I simply couldn't make that connection to what those things meant. I tried figuring out what my parents were....but I couldn't make that connection. Even simple words seemed to lack meaning. I remember asking myself "What's what?" Now this might sound crazy, and it was actually sort of a scary thing at the time to not be able to "place" what all these things in my life that were just before so important to me. But isn't that what enlightenment is? Truly letting go of all those things in our world that we hold so dear? Letting go of what they mean to us, what we "think" they are. Because really everything is just an ocean of energy...all the things we see and identify are just creations of our mind. And during that experience on mushrooms, I was able to truly let go of all of those things. During those moments I truly had no idea what any of those things really were.

My theory is that there were so many elements of psylocibin activating my serotonin receptors that it was basically able to filter out even the deepest, most simple thoughts in my mind. Remember how I said serotonin acted as a filter for our thoughts? Could it be that this filter was simply "turned up". And instead of just filtering out random ideas....it filtered out thoughts that were the core of my thinking. All my memories, and all the experiences I had acquired up to that point that I had used to define the world around me.

And so I wonder, is an awakening simply when we stimulate a large release of our own natural serotonin? This might also explain the feeling of intense joy accompanied by an awakening.

I've had a sort of difficult time trying to place what this means. I always looked at an awakening as a strictly spiritual experience....and relating it to processes going on in the brain causes some confusion to how I look at what an awakening is. However, I suppose that regardless of the chemical transactions in our brain that create that experience....it still is essentially the same thing. You are letting go of your thoughts. You are stopping the generation of the world you believe exists, and realizing it only has ever existed because of those thoughts and how those thoughts have defined it. You are just focusing your mind to the point where you can control those thoughts at a high enough level that you can exercise that control to completely let go of them.

Another interesting thing....

I've read that scientists have monitored the brains of monks while meditating, and they found that the part of the brain that controls differentiating ourselves with the things around us....that tells us we're separate from all the objects we encounter in our lives...that part of the monks' brains would actually start losing blood flow. Basically deactivating it at deep levels of meditation. In this case you would be eliminating a condition of the mind. By turning it off, so the condition didn't exist anymore. This probably explains the feelings of losing touch with the world around you, your body "disappearing".

Anyway, I'd love to hear others thoughts on this if you have any. Very interesting stuff

Ryan

[Antidote]

I cannot compare both, because i didn't have the drug experience, but i just feel that an awakening is much, much more than a chemical reaction.

Perhaps similar experiences, but very different in essence...

Blessings

Antidote

[Yixin]

totally different

Hi Ryan,

I enjoyed reading your thread and your thoughts. I agree that when it comes to subjective experiences, it's hard to categorize those experiences as "tricks" of the mind and "reality".

I have one example to show that an awakening is more than a chemical induced mental condition. The brain conditional changes might be similar to what psychedelic mushrooms can do, but I believe those are only the physical manifestations of changes in the spirit. Remember, all form is emptiness

My example is this. How can the elimination of a brain condition give you the ability to transmit chi over great distances like 500 kilometers?

Yixin

[Mark A]

Brain Chemistry

Hi Folks,
I jujst tought I would offer some view points. I feel that although these experiences may be similiar to awakenings in chi kung. They are only a short lived effect of the mushrooms effecting the brain chemistry.

As with anything the physical (brain chemistry) does effect the chi of the person. Yin/Yang. But unlike chi kung this will be only a short term effect. Chi Kung when practised regularly and properly, preferably under a master or instructor sustains and implents changes to the person on many different levels

What you will find happening is that the body/brain will be "burning" up a lot of your brain chemistry (serotin, dopamine etc) and this can lead to various pyschiatric disorder such as depression,mood swings to outright drug induced psychosis.

Although the experiences maybe similiar one is artificial and uses a crutch. The other takes time and build and sustains.

Just to let you know where these experiences have come fro I have worked for four years with drug users and nursed many people who have had drug induced pyschosis.

Mark A

[Darryl]

Physical form

Or for an equally observational example -

When someone is drunk, they wobble, sway and occassionally fall over. Does this then mean that their chi is flowing strongly since all of these are very possible during Chi Flow?

It's a very common misconception to confuse the form with the effect - in this case, to confuse the higher states of conciousness or examples of experiences with the literal explanations used. 'Parts of your body disappearing' is both an intensely accurate yet completely inaccurate description. 'Having no thoughts' is not the same as not knowing what is going on around you, in fact it is almost the complete opposite.

Hi Ryan,

It's quite common for beginners to attempt to understand what is happenning but usually, they run off in the completely opposite direction . This is one reason why I find 'Direct Experience' to be one of the most valuable teachings for new students. Since they are new, they have usually not experienced what they think they have experienced and if they are caught before they charge off into the sunset, they can then resume their practice without too much distraction.

There's a whole 'expanding the mind' explanation that frequently crops up from people taking a variety of substances, but I have yet to meet one person who has actually expanded their Mind by doing so. New experiences are not Mind Expansion in the sense that I refer to it, in fact they may even be the complete opposite.

[Antonius]

Welcome to the forum, Ryan. Quite a whirlwind first post you've got there.

I have a few pertinent questions.

How old are you?
Are you still practicing chi kung?
How many years did you practice?
What type of chi kung do/did you practice?
Are you still doing drugs?

[ryanberg]

my chi kung experience

I guess it would be useful to give a little background info on myself...

I'm 19. I took Sifu's intensive chi kung course in Malaysia...a little over four years ago. I've just started practising again the last few months, and I'm not doing drugs anymore....if it's one thing I learned from my experience with drugs it's that they definitely do dull your mind. I stopped doing chi kung completely about a year ago, and shortly after got into the drugs. And it was only a few months ago that I quit and started shifting my focus and view on life back in what I think is a better direction.

My experiences with awakenings were all confirmed by Sifu. I went through a period in my chi kung practise where I would have them quite often, for times almost every practise. It's hard now because I don't remember those experiences very vividly anymore. But I'm confident that continued practise will bring me back up to that level again and I can continue progressing further where I left off.

To clarify, I never meant to say that I think taking psychedelic mushrooms was the same thing as an awakening or a substitute for it. Absolutely practising chi kung is a far better way to spend your time. My opinion on drugs and the reason I believe they dull your mind so much, is that you're using an outside source to stimulate your mind....basically leaving your mind to vegetate and not having to generate any energy of it's own. Whereas with chi kung or mediation, you are exercising your mind....and "building your mental muscles" let's say. You're training and increasing the capacity to stimulate your mind on your own. Which is far more beneficial.

I liked what you said, Yixin. That the brain chemical changes are only physical manifestations of changes in the spirit. I'd like to believe that.

But I still think it's helpful to look at it on the physical level....that when we have that experience, we're basically turning our thoughts off on a physical level and escaping the conditions our brain creates for us. And when we do that we get to experience things outside the conditions of our minds. That's not to say there aren't things occurring on other levels, like with our spirit. But right now isn't our spirit experiencing things through the conditions of a human body and human brain?

Ryan

[Mike B]

Hey Ryan - nice post

Just a quickie as I am on a hotle machine on hols (and have finished my morning qigong practice while everyone else sleeps off the after effects of a lively street party last night). Anyway this machine is an apple (don,t know how to use them) and the keyboard is 'foreign' (eg y and z swapped) so only a quickie...

The topic you raise is an interesting one - Tricycle magazine (an american all-tradition buddhist mag) ran a special edition few years back on psychedelics and englightenment experiences. Needless to say it was highly contentious as for one thing one is treading on peoples toes when it comes to religious beliefs (which people tend to hold very dear (and maybe for some their views of what qigong practice Is has some religioius aspects). You should check it out though as it would be very interesting to you.

Anyway other than the oversimplification of brain chemistry the points you make are a Very valid position to take. Also in your case you have experiential experience of both. It is certainly a tenable position to state that any experience is an experience of brain-mind (eg the Buddhaa 'mind creates everything) and you correctly refer to research done on meditating monks. One interesting aspect of course is that when it comes to religious experience evryone experiences them in terms of their own symbol system (eg christians see christ not allah, muslims allah not kwan yin etc), secondly that the brain module responsible for 'autobiographical' self is deactivated and thirdly that the brain function responsible for 'importance' tagging is activated. This much is factual and not really a question of belief.

Of course to give some succour to the irrationalists what is brain and what is mind isn't a 'done deal' and also one could argue that 'God' is twiddling your neurochemicals precisely to communicate with you. On the hand Occams razor shaves closer lol.

Now time for breakfast here - but wanted to pitch in on the rationalist side of things here and not let a cracking first post sink fast ;-)

Never surrender

Mike B

ps Damasio "The feeling of what happens" divides 'self' into 'core self' (experiencer no memory) and 'autbiographical self' (I am Ryan etc)...

[Chiahua]

Nice Thread

The interesting admixture of Cognitive Science and qigong is on that is dear to my heart . When I was starting college I got into an american Science Fiction author who was a "man of the sixties", close personal friend of Timothy Leary, named Robert Anton Wilson. He spent alot of time trying to connect different drugs with different types of awakening experiences. However, I don't think that he spent enough time contrasting the experiences brought about by a lifetime of daily practice and eating something someone found next to a tree.
How about a crude analogy? Someone who has been diligently practicing iron palm for decades (I am guessing, since I don't have iron palm) will develop some combination of physical attributes and mental attributes that allow them to smash a brick. Physical attributes could be more calcification on their bones, or subtle alignments in the bone structure. Mental attributes could be something as basic as the belief that you could break the brick.
Someone completely schwacked out on PCP could also have that belief-- on PCP they could very well have the absolute conviction that they can break that brick (or fly or breathe underwater for that matter). So when they try to cut through that brick? Well, they are missing something that enable them to break that brick, something that could only have been trained for several years, daily.
I think that's similar to the contrast between an "enlightenment-like" experience on drugs, and one from daily meditation. You may be achieving similar phenomenological effects, but the physical and chemical basis are different.

Of course to give some succour to the irrationalists what is brain and what is mind isn't a 'done deal' and also one could argue that 'God' is twiddling your neurochemicals precisely to communicate with you. On the hand Occams razor shaves closer lol....
ps Damasio "The feeling of what happens" divides 'self' into 'core self' (experiencer no memory) and 'autbiographical self' (I am Ryan etc)...

Haha, Descartes' error, Damasio's correction? Mike B raises an important point. The brain is extraordinarily complex. To say "this does x with serotonin, ergo serotonin must be responsible for y" is a bit misleading to say the least. There are numerous varieties or serotonin (5-HT) receptors and all are associated with different states. But they all trigger biochemical cascades that interact with untold countless other systems in the brain...
but maybe we'll find emergent patterns that get us closer to what we want to know?

[ryanberg]

Uki's post about psychedelic mushrooms reminded me of my first post here. Haha it was interesting reading through my mind at the time. I think I've come quite aways since then, whew

As a little ammendment, I think I can admit that I've never had an awakening before. Looking back, I think I fell in love with the idea of enlightenment a little too much...to say the least.

I think proof of this (not experiencing an awakening) is the state my mind has been in, and still is to some extent. My mind is pretty dull now, I think. And it's improved a lot.

However, I do think the experiences I had were very spiritual and special. They certainly sparked my journey down a path that continues to reveal wonderful things, with amazing things to come, I believe. And my "obsession" with enlightenment over the years, while not revealing the true experience of awakening, could have been replaced by far worse obsessions. And did open my mind to a lot of beautiful ideas that I can strive to incorporate into my life by cultivating my mind.

As far as mushrooms go, they may create a blissful state for a moment. But can obviously lead to confusion. And life can be confusing enough, I say

Ryan

[8nsteen8]

-

I enjoyed this thread alot, thanks for bringing it back Ryan.

I think all awakenings have natural/physical explanations. It is just that we cant explain everything today. That doesnt mean we cant explain it in the future.

Our spirit uses the human body to interact with this world. And i think it is a waste of time to chase methods whatever it is, so we can loose connection with this world.

The question i find relevant here is:

Is the reason for living here on earth to find ways so we can leave earth?

With Love
Niklas