Yang Style Masters and Variations

[Jeffrey Segal]

Dear Sifu Stier,

I really enjoyed that post.

Thank you!

[Zhang Wuji]

Originally Posted by SifuStier

Dear Wuji:

This is a rare instance in which I totally disagree with you.

And that is somethng I really welcome. Surprising as it may be, I agree with everything you disagreed with, yet I still hold my views.

In my humble view, the internal arts, like life, are never static, and a practitioner is never in the same place and stage of development. There is no doubt that Yang Banhou and Yang Shaohou were true masters, but as I have submitted, only of the combat aspect. After all, Yang Shaohou was a master of empty force, or lingkong jing, an art so advanced it is one of the top level arts of Shaolinquan itself.

But rightly or wrongly, these masters and the first Patriach Yang Luchan came to represent Yang-style Taijiquan. To follow their style, one must emulate them in some way, at least in form and training methods. The Fast Small Frame as it is for example was something one Yang Luchan could have created and if we want to learn it, we cannot learn it our own way.

At the same time, all true masters consciously or otherwise modify what they learn from their own masters. My Sifu for example has said that the way he teaches is vastly different from how his masters taught him. Even at my very low level, I find that there are times I perform my form in a way that is most suited to me, even if it is slightly different how my instructor taught it. It is not a case of my trying to be smarter than him, but it just came so naturally that i did not realise the change at first. If even a beginner like me has such experiences, how much more masters who fully understand the essence of the art.

Thus, I am sure Grandmaster Lee and yourself would have somehow modified the Taijiquan styles for your best purposes. For Shaolin Wahnam, that would be for health, spiritual joy and fulfilment, rather than an exclusive focus on combat. From all I have read from your posts, this seems to be much the same goal for Shen Men Tao.

The styles and applications of the Yang masters are a reflection of the type of people they are. This is not to judge them unfairly for they lived in different times. But as we learn their style, it is not possible to divorce the assimilation of skills and techniques from the assimilation of the philosophy and culture of the style. When one learns Aikido for example, one has to think a little like O Sensei in order to come near to how he practised Aikido.

And once again, thank yo,u StierSifu for your very interesting comments.

[Zhang Wuji]

Just to add. As powerful as Yang Banhou was, he was only at a certain stage of his development. Taijiquan being the wonderful art it is has no limits. It may well be that the Taijiquan practised by Grandmaster Lee and yourself is at a higher level than that of Yang Banhou, when seen from a health and spiritual perspective.

The Yang style Taijiquan as practised by the early Yang masters is after all only a subset of the internal arts. Would it be possible that the Yang Taijiquan practised by masters today may only resemble that of the Yang masters in form, breathing methods etc but may have moved beyond, and into the deeper aspects of the internal arts? (Of course for most other "masters", this is highly unlikely given the general debasement of the internal arts today. There is also no question that any of the Yang masters could literally drop a modern exponent without lifting a finger)

I began these posts because I was wondering about my future progress in Taijiquan. While I am only just beginning, I do not want to undertake the long journey just to learn the Fast Small Frame alone. I was initially drawn to this style of Taijiquan because of this set, but I have come to realise that Taijiquan is so much more than just being combat efficient. If learning the Small Fast Frame is to become as belligerent as Yang Banhou, then i would rather pass. But I am coming to realise that one can learn this apex form without going down the path that Yang Banhou took (although it may mean sacrificing a certain level of combat efficiency).

[Sifu Stier]

Wei Wuji:

Your perspective of Masters like Yang Lu-Chan Sifu and Yang Pan-Hou Sifu is so totally removed from the realities they experienced on a daily basis that you make assumptions about them which cause you to judge them unfairly in my opinion.

It has been said that some men are born to greatness while others have it thrust upon them. For the Yang brothers...Pan-Hou and Chien-Hou...it was both. There father...Yang Lu-Chan...was acknowledged by most people to be the most skilled martial artist of his era...and many people would argue that he was the best ever. Having become a legendary Master during his own lifetime made him the target of innumerable challengers and ambushers...rather like the legendary gunfighters of America's Old West. He understood that his sons would therefore also become the targets of similar assaults by fame seekers when they reached adulthood...so he trained them accordingly for this eventuality. The training was intensely severe physically and completely merciless emotionally. By today's standards...the way Yang Lu-Chan instructed and disciplined Pan-Hou and Chien-Hou would be considered 'child abuse'. And yet...I believe that his harsh treatment of his sons was motivated by love for them because he knew that they would have to be the best of the best to survive what they would no doubt face as grown men.

The 'spiritual' aspect of the training was one of uncompromising spiritual sensitivity...mental alertness and awareness...and emotional self-confidence combined with total neutrality and non-attachment to the outcome of every situation and circumstance. These are awesome qualities for any warrior to truly possess. A man who maintains no emotional investment in fear or desire is an enemy with nothing to lose! Such a man is certainly not the first choice of an opponent for most fighters as he is not manipulated by threats or temptations of any kind....and therefore is able to face life and death experiences with a totally calm and completely focused body, mind, and spirit.

Given the known reality of probable experiences attracted by the Yang Family reputation...it is unfair in my view to expect that these men would value the same training agenda priorities that a modern day practitioner would who doesn't have to worry about whether or not each day will be their last on this earth. The Yang's situation was in many ways alot like that of combat soldiers in the war zone. The stress of intensely harsh training combined with the additionally severe stress of having to regularly fight to the death to stay alive makes most men aggressive and angry. Talk to Veteran combat soldiers who survived the war zone to validate this fact. Don't expect people who live such realities on a daily basis to be passive...gentle spirited...meditation guru types. Perhaps such attributes can be embraced later in life if the constant fighting ever stops long enough to pursue such things...but unfortunately for the Yang's it never did!

They did not enjoy the luxury of being able to train their Tai-Chi Chuan primarily for personal spiritual self-cultivation and health benefits as most modern practitioners do today. So once again...don't judge a man too harshly unless you've walked a mile or two in their shoes under the same conditions!

[Ray]

Well spoken, Sifu Stier.

I am glad that some of us have the luxury of living in far more peaceful times.

Divineshadow

[Zhang Wuji]

I am afraid you misunderstood the general intent of my posts, StierSifu. Perhaps it is my poor English or inability to express what I mean clearly.

As you know, I trace my Taijiquan lineage to Yang Luchan Zongshi. It is not becoming for a Chinese to put down another school so I chose to focus on my Patriach. It is for this reason that I have refrained from making comments on the Chen Style or any other style not descended from him. Had I been writing this post in Chinese, both the expressions used and manner of writing would have been very different. There would have been no misunderstanding that I am criticising my ancestors, which as you can imagine is a big taboo.

My posts on this issue relates to the inherent nature of Yang style taijiquan as exemplified by the Yang masters. I reiterate that the Yang style represents only a certain stage in the longer Taijiquan journey. Had the Yang masters lived in different times in different places, they could have taken their mastery of their art into a far higher level. I am only concerned that today we see the Yang style (of Yang Luchan, not Yang Chengfu) as the highest level we can possibly aspire to. That cannot be the case.

I say all these with the complete understanding that I may never reach even a millionth of the true Yang style standard. However, I always believe in the saying that if one aims for the stars, one can at least fall on the moon if one fails. If one only aims for the tree branches, all one can fall back on is the earth.

I have never seen real combat so I cannot thank God speak from personal experience. It is true that one cannot expect soldiers to behave like some saintly sage. But I think that certain qualities of a Taijiquan or internal arts masters can be carried over into even a military setting. Koichi Tohei the highest ranking disciple of O Sensei in his time has said he survived the war in China only through his meditative skills. Would you not agree that a soldier with the skills to remain calm, peaceful and clear-headed to have a far higher chance of survival in the Vietnam jungle? There is a saying of Buddha to "be in the filthy mud and yet remain untainted, like the lotus".

Perhaps it would help if I disclosed that I have served in the military before, and that I have seen how inevitable it is that soldiers become aggressive to cope with the training. They (and I) used anger and sometime rage to pysche themselves to perfrom and endure. In my personal view, this makes for a very unbalanced and ineffective soldier. StierSifu has said before that fighting happens without thought. You could just as easily have referred to what is known to soldiers as IA drills. When ambushed, there is no time to think but to react as you have been trained. I say from personal experience that my IA were best performed when I had a good night's rest (naturally) but also when my mind was uncluttered and focussed. Being angry and aggressive would have been detrimental to this end. I sincerely believe I am not being unfair if I say that if Yang Banhou and Yang Shaohou could transcend their realities and remain non-aggressive (but not passive) despite their circumstances, their Taijiquan would have reached heavenly levels.

I end by saying that I have not intended to judge the Yang masters who are my ancestors but only to make the point that they, like almost everyone else did not reach the highest possible levels of Taijiquan. And this is not a snide way of saying I can do better. Indeed, I aspire to their levels, only that I want to also cultivate my spirituality at the same time.

[Anthony S]

Zhang Wuji,

Your comments are thoughtful and respectful and are a great contribution to the forum. Thank you. Also, your article on Sifu's web site comparing Tai Chi Chuan to Shaolin Kung Fu is quite interesting. Thank you for taking the time to make your contributions.

[Sifu Stier]

So...Wuji, if I am correctly understanding your supposedly apologetic justification of previous posts...you consider it inappropriate to criticize and disrespect those of other style lineages...but feel that it is OK to do so with predecessors in your own lineage. That's a misdirected priority in my opinion. Traditional loyalty is always reserved first and foremost for your own lineage predecessors...since it was their creative genius and willingness to teach which provided what you have learned.

It has been my observation that people are generally unable to create and teach that which they personally are unable to understand or demonstrate. This seems to be true in every area of human endeavor whether it is martial arts...musical composition...English gardening and landscaping...or whatever. Thus...it is difficult for me to believe that the many benefits to health and spiritual self-cultivation which I have personally experienced over these many years time from the practice of the Old Yang Style Tai-Chi Chuan Sets were beyond the personal knowledge and experience of the Yang's themselves.

It has been my direct experience that these health and spiritual benefits naturally develop from the practices concurrent with the development of the martial skills and abilities. As such...anyone who practices the Old Yang Style consistently and sufficiently...will experience personal development in all three areas of benefit according to their efforts in training. I must assume...therefore...that this was true for the Yang's as well. And since their martial or boxing skills were so highly developed...logic would suggest that their development spiritually and otherwise must have been at an equally high level, too. Of course...the manner in which each practitioner manifests the results of their training is a matter of personal choice.

The fact that they chose to manifest and express their knowledge and skills primarily in terms of martial arts was a reflection of their 'career path' in terms of generating an income with which to support themselves and their family's. Like most of us today...their preference was to employ themselves doing what they were best at and enjoyed most. I find no fault with that. And at their point in history...to spare the lives of those who have comitted themselves to taking yours...or to taking the lives of those whom you have sworn an oath of loyalty to protect...and are being handsomely rewarded and paid to protect...is to give the same assailants renewed opportunities to try again...and even places your own family at risk from such individuals. I find no fault with this either as those who were injured or killed experienced the direct results of their own negative intentions and their own violent initiatives....most likely unrelated to any personal ill will from the Yang's!

I do wholeheartedly agree...however...that had the early Yang Masters lived at another less violent time in China's history...they might well have manifested their knowledge and skills in much different ways....ways more readily acceptable and easy to understand for people in today's world!

[Zhang Wuji]

Originally Posted by SifuStier

So...Wuji, if I am correctly understanding your supposedly apologetic justification of previous posts...you consider it inappropriate to criticize and disrespect those of other style lineages...but feel that it is OK to do so with predecessors in your own lineage. That's a misdirected priority in my opinion. Traditional loyalty is always reserved first and foremost for your own lineage predecessors...since it was their creative genius and willingness to teach which provided what you have learned.

I find it interesting that you used the words "supposedly" and "apologetic".
But perhaps let me explain why I seem to criticise my predecessors (although I sincerely feel I have not). Chinese culture while emphasising loyalty also has the concept of misplaced loyalty (愚忠). The great hero Yue Fei is today regarded as a tragic hero because of misplaced loyalty. Had he been less loyal to the useless emperor and more loyal to his people, the Song dynasty may not have fallen.

I am also a product of the Five Four movement. Blind devotion to the past and unquestioning loyalty to our culture gave way to self-reflection and criticism. The movement went to the extreme in jettisoning all things Chinese and embracing all things Western. Today, I see an over-reaction back to Chinese nationalism, and the notion that if it is Chinese, it must be good.

I agree with you that a traditional Chinese would not criticise his lineage. At the same time, a traditional Chinese always respects other sects, at least superficially, over his own. Chinese classical knights would refer to their own school as 蔽派 (humble/inferior) while other as 贵派 (superior), their own children as dogs while other people's children as young gentlemen.

But I still think I did not put down or lower the prestige of my Taijiquan lineage in any way, least of all Yang Luchan Zongshi. But I did say that I chose not to go the way of Yang Banhou Zushi, for example, in hurting and even killing students in normal practice. A modern yet traditional Chinese recognises that things done in the past can be done better today. We have stopped polygamy and treating women as second-class, ended the insane practice of favouring sons over daughters (not true in all of China), teaching only Chinese our secret arts and undying loyalty to one man. Like it or not, we acknowledge that our ancestors did do wrong, and we do not intend to follow in those paths. Again, I stress that I am aware that they lived in different times and do not judge them with today's enlightened(?) viewpoint, but I do want to make the conscious decision that I do not endorse or support such acts.

What I did do wrong was to express my own views of my lineage ancestors in a public forum, which can be seen as disloyalty.

I would add that as a Shaolin Wahnam student, I also have a Shaolin lineage. I have also wondered if the Venerable Zhi Shan, our ancestor in the Southern Shaolin Temple was right to have been part of the revolutionaries. At that time, it was necessary to use the Shaolin arts against the government, but I have often asked myself if the cost (of the lives of the Shaolin monks) was worth it. Voicing such thoughts, in my humble opinion, is not being disrespectful, just like asking myself whether Yang Shaohou or Yang Banhou should have injured their students is not criticising them, but a reflection in hindsight. And using hindsight, while unfair to those in the past, is useful for future progress. Because of the way Yang Banhou and Yang Shaohou taught, many have lamented that their skills have died with them since they had so few disciples to pass on their teachings. Fortunately, their students realising that change in the teaching methods was necessary modified their teaching, so the Fast Small Frame still exists today. Perhaps the standard is lower thanks to the less than torturous training, but then again, so is all of martial arts in general

[Zhang Wuji]

Hi Anthony

Thanks for the vote of confidence. I wish Wahnam West all the very best!

Incidentally, that article on the webpage came about because Sifu asked me to let him know my views on Shaolinquan and Taijiquan, so as to decide which art I should specialise in within Shaolin Wahnam. Somehow, it became much longer than I expected. But the article is valuable to me because of Sifu's comments, which made so many things crystal clear to me.