Taijiquan training methods

[Casper]

At my tai chi chuan class we learn the cheng man ching 37-form after Master Huang Xiangxian's principles.
There is training monday and saturday.
On mondays we usually start of with some stance training, though we havent practiced the three circle stance.
Then we pratice the form and try to improve the bit we know, so the postures and movement are correct and flowing.
Then we spend some time practicing push hands, with pushing from the waist to generate a powerfull push with minimum use of strength and effort.
We also sometimes practice swallowing and returning.

On saturdays we mainly pratice pushhands but we usualy start of with stance training. Sometimes my sifu will show us some applications but this happens rarely. In his opinion Tai Chi Chuan becomes more external when you focus too much on applications.
Since we don't learn or practice applications I feel that I'm missing some very important aspects of my tai chi chuan training. I want to learn tai chi chuan to
defend my self not to be able to do a tai chi dance.
Also I don't have an effective training program for when I'm practicing on my own.
I practice the form 3 times, then I do grasping sparrows tail 5 times to each side.
Then I practice lifting water 20 times and then I finish off with the three circle stance for as long as I can manage which at the moment is about 10-15 minutes.
As Antonius stated in another thread I might be in a good place right now, since I am only a beginner and it is my wish to once train under the guidance of Sifu Wong. But I still can't help but feel that I am missing something.

[Wudang Boxer]

Wudang boxing vs. other families taiji

Zhang San-Feng is credited with creating Taijiquan yet the Chen family is also credited with creating. Chen village is situated right in between Wudang Shan and Shaolin in Hubei province. Seeing this one could make since of how Chen village for #1 adopted Taiji a.k.a 13 postures. If one just takes a look at Chen villages cannon fist one can see the hard feauters in it resembling Shaolin boxing.

You can tell the authencity of an art by #1 its theory #2 its practice and #3 how this is all manifested. Today we shall look at a Wudang artist's perspective of Taijiquan training. The point of this discussion is too show our "differences" and "similarities" in how we box.

My boxing style and training is similar but different to how you "commercial" artists train. I call you commercial; not because you are fake but because you except something someone has taught or told you to be a genuine practice of self-defense or health maintance. Taijiquan was created in a Daoist monastery with Daoist influences, but if you take that away then you take away its spiritual influence to apply the Dao in everything you do.

Have any of you ever studied the Dao Te Ching before. Before I even thought about training in Taijiquan I first studied this book and then studied Taiji theory from one its students Zhang San-Feng known as the "lazy one". If someone says Zhang San-Feng or any family created taijiquan then they did not. Then is the first principal taught in the Dao Te Ching:

The Dao that can be told is not the eternal Dao/ The name that can be named is not the eternal name/

In this since I call you commercial because many of you claim a certain family or a single person to create an art that is a reflection of the Dao.The Dao cannot be given a creator or exact name because it created all things with nothing. Taiji are two pollarities which turn into 4 opposites then into 8 then into 16 then into 32 then into 64: which is the I-ching.

The I-ching along with the Dao Te Ching is are the first lessons one learns when it comes to even thinking about Taijiquan. Many people just run straight into classes when they should be first running into libraries. The training of Wudang boxing can be researched all over the internet, but my favorite is www.damo-qigong.net/temple/wudang/ kungfu.htm

[Andrew]

I'm afraid you've lost me completely . What were you trying to say?

Andrew

[Darryl]

Dear Wudang Boxer,

Please continue your comments as a new thread to avoid blurring the initial purpose of this one. Thank you.

[Wudang Boxer]

The point of my discussion was that first if one engages in taijiquan the training should consist of what made Taijiquan in the first place:

Dao Te Ching
I-Ching

And lastly understanding what Wuji is which gave birth to Taiji, before it was even a boxing style.

Hopefully this is not to hard to understand. Keep to the principals; one gave birth to two, two gave birth to four which gave birth to a thousand things (Dao te Ching). This saying means that all things originate from a source- if you search for that source one doesn't need a thousand different training methods.

As I said before the training of taijiquan can be researched all over the net. And my favorite place to learn is www.damo-qigong.net/temple/wudang/.

[Sifu Stier]

Re: Tai-chi-chuan training

Hello Wudang Boxer: I certainly admire your 'fire' and passion in posting your views regarding Tai-chi-chuan, but I believe that the philosophy you expound
is really a rather recent one in the history of the various Tai-chi styles. When I began training in January 1961, it was rare to hear Tai-chi Sifu's of any major style even mention written works such as the Tao-Te-Ching or the I-Ching or other philosophical treatises. These folks were boxers first and foremost, and any health benefits or spiritual self-cultivation benefits known to arise from the practices were considered auxilliary agendas at best. Even then, such considerations only started to become priorities since the time of the Boxer Rebellion in China, when previously unbeatable Masters of every style and system were shot absolutely dead in the streets by men who could never have defeated them in hand to hand combat. Thus, the value of training so hard for so many years to achieve expertise and mastery in various methods of Kung-fu lost its' appeal to most, and the social status
of achieved mastery also lost favor. Seeing the tides of change upon them and their martial arts, many masters sought new ways to continue earning a
living through their arts by shifting the focus from fighting applications to health benefits and spiritual philosophy. Suddenly, Fa-jing was 'out' and
Tao was 'in'! The same thing happened with Japanese martial arts after WWII ended in defeat for them. The old Bujitsu arts shifted focus to become Budo arts, i.e. Ju-jitsu arts became Ju-do, Aiki-jitsu arts became Aiki-do, Ken-jitsu became Ken-do. In all such cases, Asian martial arts now emphasized the 'fighting' agenda less and less, and the health and self-cultivation philosophy more and more! Lord, as I write this I feel somewhat 'antiquated' and 'dinosauric' in my relationship to the modern martial arts mainstream. Oh, well, I have no regrets, and would do it all again in a heartbeat!

[Luo Lang]

Dear SifuStier,
It is an honour and most refreshing to read from your deep knowledge.

Respectfully

Roland

[Zen R Ridge]

Thank you

Sifustier

Thank you for your knowledge, though it is a sad story.

Metta

Zen

[Andrew]

Thanks for the very informed account SifuStier.

Andrew

[Sifu Stier]

Re: Tai-chi-chuan training

Greetings to Roland, Zen, and Andrew: Gentlemen, thank you for your follow-up support and feedback. As always, it is much appreciated!
One in Tao ~ Sifu Stier

[Wudang Boxer]

Actually Sifu Stier

The principals of Wudang spiritualism and boxing are intertwined like a rope. The Dao was the principal behind Wudang boxing before Wudang Shan was even given a name of its highly skilled boxers. There are three principals of Jing (understanding, listening, and emitting it). One does not have to practice these methods of Power (jing) but all Wudang Taiji students were required to do so after a period of training; Along with studying the Dao Te Ching, I Ching and Taiji's theory and practice.

My point is Stier that if these family arts stayed in touch with there spiritual connection (Daoism, in its purity,from Wudang) they would of had a better insight on how to handle foreign affairs with a wiser mentality that took place. The 'Harmonous Fists' who began the revolution didn't have a clear understanding of what they wanted done to change China. For example at first they wanted to overcome the Ching and the forein peoples, but after the emperess convensed them to fight to the foreiners they joined with the Ching; lost the war and then were comanded to stop boxing altogether.

Sir, during the time that u first started studying taiji boxing few western people had even heard of the Dao and few Chinese wanted to teach something that u would not have an overstanding of. The only reason why all these Japanese styles turned there former name into ''Do'' as in Jujitsu into Judo is because the influence of Buddhism into there styles from China. Buddhism incorporated the Chinese term ''Dao'' because it is apart of Chinese culture, language and was adopted by Japanese people from pilgrim monks.

Taiji (opposite polarities) (--) which was birthed from Wuji (-) which came from the Dao ( ) are spiritual imblems from the I Ching. If you take away Taiji's spiritual essence and its spiritual training then your art will lack spirit (Shen). Shen is creativity and liveliness present within all those who follow the Dao- Way. It is detremental that all those who practice Taiji know this. And this is why 'family' arts such as Yang, Chen, Wu, Wu/Hao, Sun, lack Wudang's prestige because it does not claim something for profit of money and ego or power.

Peace, Shalom, Salam, Salem, Hotep

[Sifu Stier]

Wudang Boxer

Once again, I admire the strength of your convictions regarding these matters, and I honor your right to hold your own opinion like anyone else here. However, with all due respect to you, your Sifu, and your Style or School of Gung-fu, what you present to us is not the only view of these things. And those who hold a different view than you do are not automatically wrong!

In all fairness to the Five Families of Tai-Chi-Chuan, they gained their undisputed reputations as boxers, not as politicians, not as philosophers, not as monks and spiritual adepts. BOXERS! Most of them never had, and still do
not have any political power or influence in government, and thus, were in no position to make National decisions in China at the time of the Boxer Rebellion, or the Communist Revolution, or any other time to date.

Secondly, to assume that I, or any other non-Chinese, would be incapable of understanding the foundation philosophy and principles of these arts is not only a false assumption, but an arrogant assumption at that. Nobody holds a
proprietary and exclusive control over these things anymore, aside from the relatively small body of material that falls outside the mainstream as unique to a particular style or teacher.

Thirdly, the influence of Ch'an/Zen Buddhism in Japanese Culture and Japan's
martial arts had already been present for hundreds of years prior to the transition from 'Jitsu' to 'Do' primarily after Japan's devastating defeat in WWII. Most scholars and historians agree that the widespread contempt for everything relating to 'martial' or 'military' thinking and activity among the general population after the war is directly responsible for the shift in focus regarding such practices. This is quite understandable since the 'warrior' attitude brought them the A-Bomb at the end!

Lastly, to state that the Five Family Styles are devoid of any philosophical foundation and lacking Spiritual Essence is just simply ignorant. To overtly state that they lack prestige compared to your Style is not only a ridiculous premise in light of the incredible demonstrations of skill and integrity from members of these Families, but it is extremely rude and disrespectful of you, indicating a lack of personal refinement and good manners!

One need not have a shaved head, wear monk's garb, and reside in a mountain retreat to experience Spiritual Self-Cultivation and Illuminated Modification of Consciousness! And insofar as 'money' is concerned, I have received far, far more from my Teachers than I have given to them. It is in that same Spirit of Benevolence that I too give freely to you and others here!

[Wudang Boxer]

[

B]Five Families of Tai-Chi-Chuan, they gained their undisputed reputations as boxers, not as politicians, not as philosophers, not as monks and spiritual adepts. BOXERS! Most of them never had, and still do
not have any political power or influence in government, and thus, were in no position to make National decisions in China at the time of the Boxer Rebellion, or the Communist Revolution, or any other time to date.[/B]

I did not innerstand what you were saying, concerning the boxer rebellion my sense of direction became blurred w/ emotion. I became emotional because if you look at Taiji boxing it has become a watered down version of its former self. In my search for its roots Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming presented a Nei Dan Qigong exercise cultivated on Wudang Shan(mountain), but even he did not want to publish any written material on Wudang Taijiquan.

If Wudang Taijiquan is the earliest recorded boxing style of Taiji then wouldn't you think that a great deal of information would be published concerning it. Why is Wudang boxing not taught at these big Taiji academies if it is the very soul of Taiji. My conclusion was that the 5 families changed and used Wudang Taiji to create there own style of Taiji so to produce fame and glory amongst the people, and it all started in the Chen village located in between Shaolin and Wudang Shan. To this day Chen village natives do not except the fact that Wudang Shan is the stepping stones of Taiji Boxing, yet Chen village natives are Buddhists who practice Taijiquan which was created from Daoism.

This is why I was so frustrated and emotional in my response. Excuse me.

to assume that I, or any other non-Chinese, would be incapable of understanding the foundation philosophy and principles of these arts is not only a false assumption, but an arrogant assumption at that. Nobody holds a

Excuse me sir but I have no right to question what you do or do not understand, because learning and truly understanding something depends on the individual. Yet your own words state that it was rare to hear any sifu talk about any written works such as the Dao Te Ching or the I Ching back when you started training some 43 years ago (january 1961). Seeing this do you now understand what I was meaning, and trying to say? This info was not spoken of because your so called sifu's did not care if you were first mentally/spiritually in check; all they wanted you to realize was health benefits, or combat techniques from Taiji & Wuji practice.

In doing so they may of spoken some wise words, at the same time hustled a little bit of money. And Iam not mad at them because you gotta find some way to survive out here in this cold world. I went to a Taiji school in Bowie, Maryland ran by a man named Dennis Brown and it was called the "Dennis Brown Shaolin Wushu Academy". Mr. Brown himself did not teach Taiji but my teacher was this old Chinese lady. She kept me, along with half of my adult classmates, practicing the same first 14 movements for a whole month, and then was going to show us the the other movements after we paid for next month. Oh what a drag................

the influence of Ch'an/Zen Buddhism in Japanese Culture and Japan's
martial arts had already been present for hundreds of years prior to the transition from 'Jitsu' to 'Do' primarily after Japan's devastating defeat in WWII.

I did not disagree with you on this matter, what is your point

Lastly, to state that the Five Family Styles are devoid of any philosophical foundation and lacking Spiritual Essence is just simply ignorant.

The truth is that I do not see any reflection of spiritual teaching on any part from the 5 families. Any written work by Europeans in any fashion would of been devoid of this information seeing how Westerners view Christianity as the only right spiritual cultivation. This also plays a big part in why this is hardly taught to Taiji students.

One need not have a shaved head, wear monk's garb, and reside in a mountain retreat to experience Spiritual Self-Cultivation and Illuminated Modification of Consciousness!

Actually Wudang priests wear their hair as any other casual human being would, besides maybe it being wrapped into a bun in the back and having a pin threw the middle. There garb also is not limited to the robe but the robe is a usful piece of clothing for the cold seasons, and is used amongst common folk as well as priests of Buddhist or Daoist origin. If the Dao is inside each of us then one does not need to venture out to a mountain in order to experience spiritual cultivaiton, but these priest knew that the higher you go in the mountains the more cleaner the air and the better place to cultivate Qi(energy) where it is less distracting then the every day struggles of the city.

Master Chen a 14th generation disciple of Wudang boxing is currently living in New York if anyone is interested in him or his work a web address is posted:

https://www.wudangtao.com

please visit this web site if you are interested. dont hold back

Hotep

[Sifu Stier]

Unfortunately, the only people who profess your views are the people from whom you received these views, and as a part of the Tai-Chi-Chuan community at large, they are in the minority. Every School and Style wants to think that they are the best, that they have the most authentic system, the truest transmission, the most valuable teachings.

However, the origins of Tai-Chi-Chuan are so far back in time that anybody's opinion is probably only conjecture at best. Like so many others who post on these Forum threads, you see only that which you are engaged in! How can you say what the spiritual elements of other Styles are when you are neither a practitioner nor a teacher with experience in those styles. And what difference does it make? If you like what you are learning, and find it to be of benefit to you, just be grateful for the opportunity to learn and forget about whether others hold the same views or not. Whenever people need to have everyone agree with them 100%, there is usually some uncertainty and lingering doubt somewhere in their heart and mind about the validity of their path. Ultimately, even your Teacher cannot practice for you! So, if for each of us, it all comes down to what we choose to learn and practice; how, when and where we choose to practice; and with whom we choose to practice, then the only opinions and decisions worthy of your consideration are your own! Good Luck! Enjoy!

[Wudang Boxer]

Remember

SifuStier]Unfortunately, the only people who profess your views are the people from whom you received these views, and as a part of the Tai-Chi-Chuan community at large, they are in the minority. Every School and Style wants to think that they are the best, that they have the most authentic system, the truest transmission, the most valuable teachings.

I never talked about Wudang Boxing being the best boxing art there is but I did refer that if one should learn why not start from the roots, not the leaves. Do you remember when the Dao De Ching said:

If all the people of the world view something as beautiful, this in it self is ugliness.

I do not care if anyone is backing me up on what I have said. There is a beginning and end for everything so this is what I have begun. What is it that I am doing you may ask? ------ I am opening the publics mind up to the truth that without the Dao in Taiji, you have no balance. And I am not talking about the root built by doing Qigong.

However, the origins of Tai-Chi-Chuan are so far back in time that anybody's opinion is probably only conjecture at best.

I agree with you

How can you say what the spiritual elements of other Styles are when you are neither a practitioner nor a teacher with experience in those styles.

The same question can be asked to you: how do you know that I never was a practitioner of the 5 families.

Well too sum up what you have finished at the end of your discussion, I only wanted people who were interested in learning Wudang Boxing to realize that it is not a mystery mountain you can go there and be trained by priests. Do not limit your experience here in America or Europe or Australia.

If one truly wants to know what Taiji is then the trip of 1,000 miles starts with one step.

Hotep