How would you fight a novice

[Dr.Tran]

I noticed in sparing a novice, they attack in very unoradox angles. You know since they are so new to it, they just don't attack as expericenced fighters. So they attack in all the the strangest angles. That would surprized and throw off our attack patterns. So how would you fight against a novice. How ironic you would expect them to be the least threat but insteades becomes the bighest threat.

[Simon]

Dear Doctor,

Fighting novices as well as martial artists from other styles is always good fun. In regard to correct patterns for weird attacks remember that the first four defence patterns taught in Wahnam (i.e. single tiger, white snake, hand sweep and immortal emerges) cover four angles of attack. With abit of improvisation these can cover all attacks made with the arms. If in doubt remember safety first and take a half step back, that way even if the block is no good you the attack should still miss target.

I find that a lot of people are a little wary of new opponents but remember: there are lessions in defeat.

I've just reread this and it sound like a lecture, sorry, I don't really know what I'm talking about.

Simon

[subclock]

Hi everyone !

Dr Tran ,

I really like this post . A few of my friends ( the rowdy type that they are ) and I have had much experience "play"-fighting each other ( mostly after seeing a kung fu movie of some sort ) with probably the most unorthadox techniques conceived by man .

Our favorite techniques include Blind Walrus Falls On Ass , Badly Balanced Duck Embarrasses Whole Family , Bad Man Takes Cheap Shot , as well as Evil Fiend Flicks Nipple .

But seriously , because we have had many a tussle , I understand exactly how intimidating it can actually be to have an untrained ( but enthusiastic ) person coming at you at a considerable pace , arms-a-flurry , using techniques that come from another quantum dimension . I don't really do that anymore since starting Kung Fu , as I realised a while ago that it would not actually improve my abilities , it was only showing my abilities for what they were - undeveloped .

I would say the biggest danger sparring someone who is not at all trained ( or maybe trained but uncontrolled ) , is that they might accidentally hurt you . In fact , quite a while ago , after seeing an old Jackie Chan movie , me and a friend were just fooling around , imitating moves we liked etc and my friend accidentally struck me in the throat with a snake fist . I don't know what happened but I was fine , not even sore from the strike . He must have just hit it the " right way " to not do any damage , but then again who knows what internal damage a mistake like that can cause .

I would guess that if you spar someone in a different system , you should take the upmost care . At least if I spar someone from Shaolin Wahnam ( or a martial art with a similar philosophy ) , I would know they have been trained to be careful and compassionate .

I would also say that in most cases a person who is not trained would not know or put into action something like " Safety First " , and I doubt they would cover themselves properly ( I know I didn't ). There should be many openings to use . I would say the danger would be in thinking you will definitely win . I'm sure Sifu has said that you should treat any and all opponents as if they are very competent .

" I've just reread this and it sound like a lecture, sorry, I don't really know what I'm talking about. "

Same goes for me

Best Wishes ,
Kevin

[Darryl]

Blindspots

Hi folks,

Fighting novices as well as martial artists from other styles is always good fun

I don't really do that anymore since starting Kung Fu , as I realised a while ago that it would not actually improve my abilities , it was only showing my abilities for what they were - undeveloped

Good and valid points from Simon and Kevin. My own is simple - if you can't even defend yourself from a complete beginner, then you must question your personal training. Beginners are excellent partners in one sense, since they have not yet learned the 'unspoken rules' of the school where you train. They will also expose blindspots in your art or in your understanding of your art. If you are training with a complete beginner and they are either holding their own or striking you freely, then questions should start being answered.

1) - Am I ready to do free sparring?
2) - Can I use the techniques I am training?
3) - Is this person a beginner?
4) - Is my art doing what is says it does?

Personally, I believe that the student will usually look for fault away from themselves, "Hmm, this doesn't work" instead of "I cant make this work .. why not?". I would say that beginners are excellent for testing three things - your guard, your footwork and your level of emotional maturity/development.

I would also say that a beginner is far more dangerous than an experienced student, as a beginner will not yet appreciate what they are doing. I have had to throw myself over beginners while they try out armlocks, I've pushed beginners away when doing punching drills because they aren't even aiming and I've stayed moving when a beginner has no concept that they are putting themselves into very foolish positions while sparring. The best defence again a beginner? Communication. Usually the beginner won't even know that what they are doing is wrong, dangerous, harmfull or suicidal. Take your time, work with them and help them develop.

After all, everyone is a beginner to someone else (my preach ).

[Andrew]

Some nice posts gents. Just a couple of quick things ..


Simon...

the first four defence patterns taught in Wahnam (i.e. single tiger, white snake, hand sweep and immortal emerges) cover four angles of attack. With abit of improvisation these can cover all attacks made with the arms.

The four defence patterns are "Single Tiger Emerges From Cave", "Golden Dragon Plays With Water", "False Leg Hand Sweep" and "Immortal Emerges From Cave" .... so Golden Dragon and not White Snake in your list. And as you mention you can defend against all hand attacks using just these four patterns.

I find that a lot of people are a little wary of new opponents but remember: there are lessions in defeat.

True, true .... as long as you survive the defeat .

Andrew

[drunken boxer]

In boxing this could present problems for the same reasons mentioned.
And similar tactics could be used, ie use your guard and use movement, therefore you could block or avoid most of the wild swings, and use the jab to keep them at bay. The main problem I found was being complacent or over confident when facing a beginner and being surprised because although quite often the beginner was so nervous and at the same time desperate to impress that they would freeze with nerves and barely move, others would get themselves into a wild frenzy and be ultra aggressive.
The 'advantage' for the experienced boxer was that there wasn't much of the compassion restriction as in kungfu - in fact quite often the coach would like you to 'test the mettle' of the new guy, to see how he would respond to taking punishment, ie would he be sensible and not come back or would he be stupid and return for further beatings like I did! Sifu had us in stitches laughing at the irish Taijiquan course when telling us about how other martial artists are proud of taking punishment like this, whereas in kungfu the whole objective is not taking punishment!
It was useful to spar novices because of the unexpected, unorthodox angles etc, and also showed me that I could employ similar tactics sometimes against more skilful boxers than myself (ie just attack attack attack).
But of course this is just the low level, fighting like animals or fighting like children trap that Sifu always warns us about.
Anyway, I'm in the wrong thread (even wrong forum!) to talk about boxing so I'll shut up now.
In kungfu or taijiquan so far I've never sparred with anyone who is any more of a novice than myself so I don't know about that one!

[Andrew]

The 'advantage' for the experienced boxer was that there wasn't much of the compassion restriction as in kungfu

Not all Kung Fu is compassionate. Shaolin Kung Fu (in Shaolin Wahnam) and Taijiquan are maybe exceptions rather the norm in this respect. And I also don't consider compassion to be restricting in the normal sense of the word - I consider it to be a necessity for me to practice Martial Arts in the first place.

Andrew

[Antonius]

Good posts here (especially Darryl).

I noticed in sparing a novice, they attack in very unoradox angles.

What's a novice? Is Tran a novice? Is someone with 6 months of TKD a novice? Is someone with several street-fighting experiences a novice?

If two people have less than two years of training, then in my opinion, both are relative novices. In free sparring, a fluid sense of timing and distancing are most important. The fighter with a better sense of timing and distancing will usually win.

In my opinion, what separates a good student from a bad student (or a non-practitioner) is that the good student is willing to "invest." For example, he's willing to put off free sparring in the short run in order to develop solid skills in the long run.

how would you fight against a novice.

With experience, it becomes easy -- so easy that you can practice all sorts of things on them. If it's not easy, then you probably aren't ready for free sparring.

[Mark A]

Sparring a novice

Hey Folks,
Sparring a novice can be a great learning experience. here is some of my experiences and thoughts. I remember sparring a nine year old child, we were just sparring hands only and I was " being nice and just playing, thinking he is only nine " and BAM he right hooked me and almost laid me out. I severly underestimated him.

When sparring with beginners it is good to remember tha they are only beginners and you have to have a realistic understanding of your own level. If a beginner hits you and you retaliate by beating the crap out, them neither of you have learnt. In some cases you may have put that person of entering an art that could have benefited them greatly.


If you find that you are better than them then restrict you own practise and implement different skills. You may decide to just work on setting up the skill attacking when old strength is spent. Or just working certain techniques and learning to set them up. Or working tatics etc.

Sparring beginners , I dont think it should happen honestly as they are not ready for it as they dont have the depth in the art . They may be really good but if their understanding is shallow what are either party going to learn.

Thanks for your time

Mark A

[snowcelt]

Correct technique

Hi,
this is a very interesting thread. Although not a practitioner of kung fu, I was thinking of exactly this topic recently in my longsword class. I'm only a beginner and miles away from free sparring yet. To illustrate a point though when practicing pairs drills, the attackers strikes a downward cut at 45 degrees, and the defender defends appropriately, as slowly as is needed until both are able to do the drill corectly, then things can speed up accordingly.
As a beginner/novice it is not always easy to get the cut angles correct, so the attacking cut can vary from vertical to horizontal. The point is that if your defending technique is correct, it will cope quite nicely with this variation.
Admittedly, this works at (as yet) slow speeds but it should also at full speed assuming the technique is correct.
The second point is that we have to train hard and long before being considered ready to free spar, (probably has to do with the extra 4 feet of steel being waved about ). Ok, this isn't kung fu so I will finish.

Respectfully,

kevin (in Finland)

[Darryl]

Hi Kevin,

It's very relevant, so feel free to post. The same skills are as relevant regardless of whether it's an empty hand, a sword, a spatula or any other random instrument.

If Kungfu can also mean 'hard work' or 'mastered art' , then I have yet to find something that isn't Kungfu .

The point is that if your defending technique is correct, it will cope quite nicely with this variation

Agree fully. If your form is dead, then you will get hit. If your form is alive, then you will adapt.

[drunken boxer]

I also don't consider compassion to be restricting in the normal sense of the word

Yes, I don't either, I should have put "restriction" in inverted commas.
But you know what I mean, in some boxing clubs, you only show whatever compassion you decide to yourself, the philosophy of the game, and most coaches usually don't require you to show any compassion, and sometimes they actively discourage it. That combined with the fact that in sparring you are usually well padded, and won't be using deadly techniques like in kungfu, means that you don't have to 'hold back' unless you want to.
I still get confused as to what exactly people mean by free sparring as well - as I say in boxing there were also different levels and conditions in sparring, but what I interpreted as free sparring was the most common one where both boxers are under specific instructions to try and knock the other man out.
I once got hammered by a boxing 'novice' about nine years ago. He was about 6 inches taller and 4 stone heavier than me, but as he was a beginner I was deemed as a good first opponent for him. Wrong! He mightn't have boxed before but I found out later he had done plenty of street fighting, and what he lacked in skill he made up for in brute force and aggression, and smashed me from pillar to post. He's now one of my best friends funnily enough.

[Andrew]

I still get confused as to what exactly people mean by free sparring as well

Now that's a good idea for a new thread . I think I'll go an start one

Andrew

[Andrew]

And here is where to find the new thread.

Andrew