Chasing extraordinary Experiences

[barrys]

Challenging, positive cleansing from following instructions is one thing, but difficulties from ignoring instructions I imagine could turn quite unpleasant

Unfortunately, I don't have to imagine as I have experienced it before I trained with Sifu and watched a couple of people go through it. Unpleasant is one word for it .

Tim, this is such a useful thread. Thank you for bringing up the subject.

People can't have it all ways. Either Shaolin Cosmos Chi Kung is a powerful, high-level art that can both clear deep blockages and help a person experience spiritual joy or it isn't.

If it isn't - don't practice.

If it is - practice it as the teacher explains. If the teacher says don't worry - don't worry. If the teacher says enjoy extraordinary experiences but don't chase them - enjoy extraordinary experiences but don't chase them.

On another note it can be easy for human beings to get into situations of one-upmanship - I am better than you. There have been jokes about people saying "I am the humblest person I know" . One of the more irritating phenomenon (in my opinion) is spiritual one-upmanship. "I am more spiritual than you", "I have communed with more powerful deities than you", "I am more favoured by the gods than you". It can be done explicitly or subtly. I have given this stuff off before and been on the receiving end. Neither was pleasant.

In our school we don't have to do this. We all consider ourselves lucky to have learnt from Sifu. It is wonderful and that can be enough of an extraordinary experience.

With metta,

Barry

[HB Yeang]

Chasing

This is typical of a "paradox" , where no one solution is the right one, whilst the wise men always do both, chasing and letting go, to reap more benefits from the perpectives of the two opposing poles.

"There should be no need or intention to have illumination, because need and intention stand in the way of its ever coming about"
'Then there is simply suchness'

[AlexKreitner]

As someone who doesn't have regular scheduled time with an instructor, I rely on my own experience as feedback for whether I'm doing something correctly. Would you say that "chasing an experience" is qualitatively different from "seeking internal feedback"? For instance, Sigung in his books speaks of building a pearl of internal energy at the dan tian when doing horse stance. I'd actively seek the sensation of that pearl of energy and be discouraged by it not being there. Would you say that the two are on the same spectrum?

Best,
Chia-Hua

I would agree with the difference being between awareness and over-intellectualizing.

Intellectualizing is the essence of Yin and Yang. You differentiate the experience of building energy at your dan tian as "good", then you've created the failure to do that as "bad". So you have to use your intellect, to begin with, to even want to pick that experience over another.

Over-intellectualizing, on the other hand, causes you to project into the future a hopeful or fearful wish that your practice goes well/bad, and a criticism of your past practice as meeting or failing to meet your intellectualized standards.

This then creates attachment or identification with the experiences and it introduces an emotional response, i.e. you feel happy that it went well or feel discouraged because it doesn't.

The key? Follow everyone else's advice and use your intellect up to the point where you are aware of your actions and can correct them to perfect them, but stop at analyzing the past or future and identifying with the byproducts of the physical.

[Neil Kelson]

Would you say that "chasing an experience" is qualitatively different from "seeking internal feedback"? For instance, Sigung in his books speaks of building a pearl of internal energy at the dan tian when doing horse stance. I'd actively seek the sensation of that pearl of energy and be discouraged by it not being there. Would you say that the two are on the same spectrum?

There's been some excellent discussion on this but I would like to add something.

If, during your practice session, you overly concern yourself with "seeking internal feedback", then I would caution that you are skating too close to "chasing an experience".

To use your example: suppose during your stance training you start to look for some evidence of a "pearl of internal energy at the dan tian". That unfortunately will not yield the best results. Instead, during your training, you should not worry, not intellectualise, and enjoy your practice.

After your practice session has concluded, you can always pause, reflect and evaluate whether the particular benefit or skill has been realised if you really want to

[Fabienne]

Dear family

I would like to seize the opportunity to humbly tell of an experience that I feel was about "too much chi" that, at the same time, turned out to be exactly what I needed:

Starting in February this year, I experienced a downward spiral that very nearly cost me my apprenticeship and lasted for approximately 4 months. This happened after I attended the Winter Camp 2011 in Lapland. It makes sense if I reflect upon it: I have not been a student for long, not used to diligent practice and utterly unaware of the power the Shaolin Arts truly have, especially Chi Kung.

Thus, I attended the Winter Camp with no idea what was in store for me/all of the participants. Needless to say that my head got blown off several times and my cleansing was simply ripping through me and my emotional blockages (or at least that is what I think happened).

So when I got home, I continued to practice all over the place, which resulted in another (rather violent) breakthrough of the same nature only 2 weeks later, which resulted in Sifu telling me not to practice for 2.5 weeks. One of my Sijes later told me that I "scared the crap" out of one or two of my poor Sihengs !

My cleansing (or whatever it was) took a turn for the "worse" in February, in which I completely lost focus of everything around me. I skipped school, work, pretended to be sick because I just did not want to leave the house, overslept and lost every drive to be successful in my apprenticeship. I didn't see "what the heck is so worth leaving the house for, I'm good at everything I do without any effort! Also, the world effing sucks.". How pompous, pathetic and wrong I was.

I got incredibly lucky though. My employer took disciplinary action in March to give me an anchor and offered me the chance to speak to a therapist on a regular basis. At that point, I (at first) felt unworthy to practice the Shaolin Arts. I was convinced that I was insulting them by needing the help I did and almost thought of quitting the school several times (Thank god for pragmatic, solid and caring Sijes !).
When I went to see the therapist, an elderly, very pragmatic and straightforward guy, I didn't know what to talk about. I didn't even know what was happening myself. Eventually, Chi Kung and the regular, intellectualising talk to the annoyingly perceptive therapist took their toll and I did better and better, shedding some of my worst habits along the way.

I got out of this "hole" in Mai. The journey out of my miserable state was rocky and exhausting and felt like a lifetime. But here I am, doing better than ever before in my life. School is great, work is fun and practice is exhilarating !

I'm aware of the fact that this might not be exactly a story about too much practice or chasing after experiences per se. But I do feel that this is a story about what could happen if you experience too much too quickly (or maybe if you chase the experience without knowing what you are getting yourself into..?). In hindsight, the whole experience of course feels perfect to me, a.k.a. "A change in my behaviour and emotions needed to happen, so it did.". How this happened was not something that I got to decide, only how I percieved the experience. Would I stay positive and work on myself, or would I lose myself in miserable self-pity, blame everybody else?

On a side note: During the whole experience, I often felt alone. Only after getting better did I realize that somehow, everything always seemed to work out perfectly, the timing was never off. Basically, I always got lucky where everybody else would have experienced a serious smackdown, probably losing their job or something akin to it. I am convinced that it was the natural flow of chi supporting me, even when I thought it was just making my life miserable.
Thus, I shall never stop being very grateful and utterly convinced, that during this time, I was never alone. Instead, it felt as if someone or something was gently putting my life and mindset back on the right track by sheltering me from all of the worst-case-scenarios, but still letting me experience everything I needed to actually move on.

Smile from the heart
Fabienne
　

[Omar]

But here I am, doing better than ever before in my life.　

There you have it.

As Sifu would say - "Very good, carry on!"

The power of the Shaolin arts is undeniable - from the solid manifestations in for example crossing arms with someone and feel internal force, to the more subtle but no less powerful signs like not being sick for several years or walking around smiling until your face hurts for no apparent reason.

Those are all expected results, unexpected or extraordinary results is handled by the three golden rules of not worrying, not intellectualizing and enjoying ones practice.

That way any extraordinary experiences enrich ones practice rather then create attachment.

[AlexKreitner]

There's been some excellent discussion on this but I would like to add something.

If, during your practice session, you overly concern yourself with "seeking internal feedback", then I would caution that you are skating too close to "chasing an experience".

To use your example: suppose during your stance training you start to look for some evidence of a "pearl of internal energy at the dan tian". That unfortunately will not yield the best results. Instead, during your training, you should not worry, not intellectualise, and enjoy your practice.

After your practice session has concluded, you can always pause, reflect and evaluate whether the particular benefit or skill has been realised if you really want to

I would suggest that the important difference you are illustrating is being aware of your actions at the moment vs. the potential results of your actions.

Ideal internal feedback would be staying aware of what you are doing at that moment so you know if you're correctly following instructions. When it becomes a projection into a possible future in the form of searching for a pearl of energy to show success, you've started over intellectualizing.

If you happen to notice a pearl of energy, you're being aware. If you are looking for it to justify your actions, you're intellectualizing.

[carolijn]

Thank you so much for sharing this.
I'm currently going through something very similar.
I've been a bit more intuitive toward my practice of late, I've been doing chi kung since June. It's not that long but I felt it needed to still find somewhere to resonate within me where I can feel confident and more deeply connected with it all. I love my classes very much. I love connecting with like minded relaxed peaceful people but sometimes that's a little too exciting for me.
So I stayed home to get a little centered, or perhaps it was just time for me to go a little deeper. I started to just practice what I knew of chi kung, and the began to concentrate on clearing my blockages, I read threads about blockages and used my intuition and did a routine. By the end my hands tingle so painfully I couldn't let them hang down so I held them over my dan tien and throat.
The result has been very intense.
Just when it was getting too much for me I made an appointment for some outside help, then I read a post by Omar I believe,
http://www.www.dari-rulai-temple.org/site/assistdeceased.html
I realized that I must been doing some clearing.
My heaviness evaporated instantaneously, I canceled my appointment and was left feeling more grateful than ever for having gone through this intense pain, drain and all the rest. My friend keeps reminding me it's like a roller coaster ride...just go along for the ride.. let it rattle and shake the blockages loose I'll feel a little lighter and wiser when it pulls in.
AND it's not wise to practice without advise but sometimes I one needs to live on the edge.
Time for my practice!
I think you're all amazing to share and care! xxx

[Matthew]

Thank you for this excellent thread.

It always makes me smile and wonder at the fact that I often find responses to thoughts and ponderings I may be having at any given time are presented in some way to me through books, blogs and this wonderful forum!

I am wondering whether entering a practice session with the intention of practicing at a given level (eg. mind) equates to chasing experiences? My sense from this thread is that it probably is, and that I should just practice and let go and whatever level is appropriate will prevail. If this is the case then how would one approach a practice session with a given aim in mind (eg. building energy or cleansing) without chasing experiences?

I'm also interested to know if there is a link between student skill level and tendency in chasing experiences? Perhaps as a beginner trying to practice at a given level might be chasing experiences, but this may not apply for an advanced student that can choose to practice at a whatever level they want?

I appreciate any comments and advice with gratitude.

[Chiahua]

Aloha Matt,

Thank you for this excellent thread.

I am wondering whether entering a practice session with the intention of practicing at a given level (eg. mind) equates to chasing experiences? My sense from this thread is that it probably is, and that I should just practice and let go and whatever level is appropriate will prevail. If this is the case then how would one approach a practice session with a given aim in mind (eg. building energy or cleansing) without chasing experiences?

I'm also interested to know if there is a link between student skill level and tendency in chasing experiences? Perhaps as a beginner trying to practice at a given level might be chasing experiences, but this may not apply for an advanced student that can choose to practice at a whatever level they want?

I appreciate any comments and advice with gratitude.

Here are my thoughts on your questions. For your first question eg practicing with a goal in mind: I think that entering a practice session with a goal in mind is actually a good thing: we should be mindful of our aims and objectives to give purpose to our practice sessions. One crosses the line when you start thinking about and chasing your goals within and during the practice session. As you point out correctly, once in the practice session you should enjoy and at most observe without thinking about what is happening. Sisook Tim's posts earlier in this thread were really helpful for clarifying this distinction. An analogy popped into my head. It's like at the end of the practice session, Sigung instructs us to think gently of our dantian. Once we make that gentle thought, then we think of nothing. Maybe going into the practice you can have a gentle thought of what your goals are, but then once you have begun your session you ideally just enjoy what comes your way. This is you wei followed by wu wei.

Regarding your second question, I think there is a correlation with experience and propensity for chasing. However, it's far from a 1:1 match as I think it depends on so many factors including the practitioners' personality as well as variations in conditions from practice to practice (was the practice rushed or otherwise suboptimal? were the conditions ideal? etc). For me what matters is that we enjoy the journey and that we get there in the end.

[Matthew]

Aloha Chia-Hua,

Thank you for your comments, very helpful. You have helped me to see what I had missed in my first reading of this thread.

With gratitude.

[George]

This is a useful thread.

I am wondering whether entering a practice session with the intention of practicing at a given level (eg. mind) equates to chasing experiences?

I don't think it is, unless you spend your practice thinking "I am training on a mind level"


Best wishes,

[Nick_R]

This is a discussion to post experiences or concerns that you are happy to share, so that you can all walk this path in a safe and supported way.

Kind regards

I am not well at the moment due to practicing incorrectly and wanted to share my experiences.

Thank you Tim Sisook for starting this important thread.

I have been training much on my own, and chasing experiences. Initially this was health, and internal force.

I have been chasing courses also.

Following the recent special intensive kung fu course, and the healing course, I have been chasing experiences of a spiritual nature.

I have only been training for about 4 years. In that time i have learnt some unbelievable kung fu.

My life over the last couple of years has been mostly based around training and resting. With the odd two week stint of freelance work.

I live with my mum and dad, and spend all my earnings on Kung Fu courses with Sigung.

My work is flexible, and of a infrequent nature, often paying me well.

I don't have a girlfriend and rarely see my friends as they live quite far away, and don't do Kung Fu.

My life is way out of balance. And my training has been also.

When i first learnt the Iron Wire, I was told by Sigung to practice slowly and build up. After about a month i was doing the full set 3 times a week, and generally always just overdoing it.

I was very very tense. Mentally and physically. And had no real physical or mental foundation to support the energy I was building.

I wanted to make results fast, lacking patience.

And didn't mind that my training was actually making me ill. My intellectual viewpoint was that it was all cleansing, and on the way out, so no worries.

Since then I have practiced many high level shaolin wahnam courses. Including I jing jing, small universe, zen courses, intensive and special intensive kung fu courses, 18 lohan arts etc, flower set and asking bridges.

This has given me an incredible spread. In four years i have learnt skills which many Shaolin Masters would have not learnt in their whole lifetime.

This spread, without any real foundation in basics, like horse stance, mixed with an unquenchable ambition to become a master, lead to my current situation.

I was being clever, trying to make fast progress.

I mixed a lot of the training and although i did not think i was disrespecting the master at the time, i was being incredibly disrespectful.

I have broken many of the Shaolin Laws.

More recently i have developed a sort of turetts syndrom where by swear words and very disrespectful phrases or words just arise up.

I have many uncomfortable images of a sexual nature arise.

I am worried i will have uncomfortable images of children arise.

I am worried about my energy, where its going, and what its doing.

More recently i have been through a very serious situation, where by i am under the help of the National Health Service Mental Health Unit.

I am taking sedative pills to stop worrying, and i have a nurse come once a day to check i am ok.

I have had to go to Ocupational Therapy, to help me get my life back on track.

This period has been incredibly stress full for my mother and father, who had to drag me down to the local doctors, and have been worrying about their 31 year old son.

Basicly I was very very close to completely losing my grip on reality.

This happened relatively quickly.

Like correct training, progress can be plotted as an exponential curve, so too can deviation. My training got out of hand, very very fast, though the reasons for my training getting out of hand have been there for some time.

I just chose to ignore them.

I hope anyone with an ambition to be a master, or to improve fast will read this post and seriously take an honest look at their objectives and goals, strengths and weaknesses.

It is so important to live for today and not get carried away with where your practise might take you.

Our Arts are incredible gifts. And like Sifu Barry said, very power full.

There purpose is very very clear. Health, vitality, mental clarity and spritual joys.

I was very very blind.

I am sorry family, for my missuse of our precious arts.

I am sorry Sigung and the past masters.

Thank you for your continued support during this difficult time.

Shaolin salute,

Nick

[Fabienne]

Dear Nick Siheng

Thank you for your open heart and sincere words. It couldn't have been easy to share your experiences with us this freely.

After coming back from Lapland (where you and I first met, remember ?), I got into this mentally exhausting, 4.5 months downward spiral. Thus I have been focusing on getting back on track for the past year and can now proudly say that I am currently more than fine.
I can see where you are coming from. Ask my seniors, they will tell you about this former, exhausting "wanting-to-be-a-kung-fu-master-yesterday"-mentality of mine. It is them I have to thank for keeping me quite firmly in check throughout the whole shebang. I have calmed down considerably and don't declare random "sparring-wars" on my poor seniors anymore .

Anyway: I don't mean to boast. I simply want to state that you have more than enough means at your disposal to improve your situation.

The first advice going through my head? "Start from scratch", really. Of course, don't forget the priceless lessons you have learned so far! What I mean is: forget about "wanting to progress" and go back to Chi Kung, 15 minutes, twice a day. Forgive yourself (If there are disturbing thoughts about anything, just gently push them away and don't get upset over them. Trust me, I've been there as well.) and thank your parents for being with you all the way, you'll feel a whole lot better already.

I wish you all the best and embrace you firmly (with a little bit of internal force thrown in !)
Fabienne

[RDBoucher]

Hi Nick,

You have written a quite courageous post.

IMHO I would suggest that you may have entered into what Christians call the "Dark Night of the Soul".

There is an excellent book called "To Know Thyself" by Albert Low, a Canadian Zen Master, that draws the parallels between Christianity and Zen on this period of spiritual development.

In my experience, you can know the difference between standard(!) depression and the dark night purely by the fact that it forces you into spiritual practice - you must "cross over to the other shore". It can be truly dreadful but is in fact a blessing and does represent a more advanced level of spiritual "purgation".

From a buddhist perspective, through hard practice you can in fact cause karma that would have matured in future lives to manifest in this one which is great in terms of maximising your development whilst in human form, but obviously makes the present more difficult. However, you have to purify it some time so why not now? Given that you are in the extraordinarily privileged position of having a precious human birth combined with the powerful spiritual techniques of our school and of course a great master available to practice with and to guide you, you must not despair during what is in effect the dissolution of the ego to be replaced by intuitive non-dualistic awareness.

Personally, I find that not only do I need to practice 20 mins of stance training plus the two 15 mins of dynamic qigong / qi flow, I also have to do 4 periods of zazen per day as well. Also, for a period of 5 years I did the Medicine Buddha sadhana twice a day including prostrations, mantra recitation and ending with zazen. Sifu's Pure Land teachings are a fantastic equivalent practice which is easy to practice but powerful in its effect.

My best suggestion is that in moments of the greatest doubt "you must have faith".

To quote the late Abbot of Zen Mountain Monastery, John Daido Loori:

"Most of the work [in Zen practice] takes place while sitting zazen, because in reality there's nothing anyone can give us. There's nothing that we lack. Each one of us is perfect and complete. That's why it is said that there are no Zen teachers and nothing to teach. But this truth must be realized by each one of us. Great faith, great doubt, and great determination are three essentials for that realization. It is a boundless faith in oneself and in the ability to realize oneself and make oneself free, and a deep and penetrating doubt which asks: Who am I? What is life? What is truth? What is God? What is reality? This great faith and great doubt are in dynamic tension with each other, and work to provide the real cutting edge of koan practice*. When great faith and great doubt are also accompanied by great determination (the determination of "Seven times knocked down, eight times up"), we have at our disposal the power necessary to break through our delusive way of thinking and realize the full potential of our lives."