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In my introduction I mention that I used to study muay thai. I've already found kung fu to be far superior but I'm having some technical difficulties with certain things because I don't have a master yet. I've attached photos of muay thai attacks that I need some help countering. I really would appreciate any help so that Once I know the kung fu counters I may start practicing them to develop the necessary skills. From left to right, top to bottom: Jarakhe Fad Hang (Crocodile Sweeps Tail), Yan Erawan (Push Elephant), Ramasoon Kwang Kwan (Giant Throws An Ax), Nak Mood Badan (Serpent Sneaks To Ocean Kingdom), Prarama Dean Dong (King Ram Walks In Forest)
Dear Sonwukong,
In Shaolin Wahnam we respect all styles, systems, schools and masters.
I'm rather sad that nobody has attempted a reply to your excellent question.
Too much time is being wasted over arguments about nothing important.
I often wish there was a separate forum for the martial artists and another for the talkers.
Anyway, I will begin my own reply.
Firstly, you may be surprised to hear that these Muay Thai patterns are actually found in Shaolin Kung Fu.
There may be a few subtle differences but the essence of application remains the same.
Not only will I provide a suitable counter for each attack, I will offer the Shaolin equivelent of each Muay Thai attack.
I will begin on Monday, because I have 4 hours of training with Muay Thai practitioners tomorrow, then sparring with my Krav Maga training partner on Sunday.
I haven't seen him in ages!
I will ask to test out my suggested counters, this way my answers come from 'direct experience'.
Dear Sonwukong,
Thanks for the questions it is really interesting one to pose. Jamie has irsvery right ion what he says. A lot of the patterns that you have shown are in Shaolin Kung Fu.
But there is a golden rule that we understand that is.
You need to develop the skills to actually apply the patterns.
In Shaolin Wahnam we have a very rich and deep heritage combined with and exellent systesm that allow us to develop these skills.
Looking at some of these patterns in the pictures you could actually nullify most of them with good foot work. This actually utilises the skills of timing and spacing.
Step away from someone and they cant reach you therefore they cant hit you.
Also we would never really kick that high ( although there is always exceptions to the rules). So that would actually counter the crocodile sweep.
As for the elbow strike to the head with the guy stepping on you. a single tiger emerges from cage applied at the right time would actually take him in the face, chest or groin. Depending on when you applied when he was coming into you.
These are some of the counters that I can think of the top of my head.
Thank you Sifu Jamie Robinson,
I was originally going to ask for the names of the patterns in shaolin kung fu , but thought I shouldn't push my luck and be grateful for whatever information I get. Of course I am very grateful. You are all so generous! thank you.
also I couldn't imagine you would thank me for asking for your help. People that generous are sadly quite rare these days. I should be the one thanking you.
Thanks once again for providing these pictures. They clearly show that Muay Thai practitioners are excellent fighters.
My Brother Mark’s answers are excellent; he emphasizes the most important aspect within each possible counter - Skills (Gong).
Indeed, even if a Shaolin exponent uses the most suitable counter, if the Muay Thai fighter has more skill/gong, then the counter would not be effective.
Mark is actually one of the most experienced martial artists I know, his knowledge of Muay Thai is greater than most on this forum.
I'm sure he will agree that another issue is 'Rules'.
Muay Thai is governed by safety rules, whereas Shaolin Kung Fu is not, many of our patterns target the eyes, throat and groin.
Using such counters may not be a fair match, in the case of this discussion.
Perhaps Mark and I will provide photos to illustrate the answers, keep posted.
yes rules are an issue but these pictures demonstrate Muay Boran which doesn't have rules and I believe they also use the fingers and head for striking, they also use throws, joint locks, chokes, and ground fighting. Muay Boran is often practiced accompanied by the art krabi krabong which is an art of various thai weapons. I am not sure if "rule governed" thai boxers practice these techniques or even know they exist. I may be wrong, perhaps more Muay Boran is preserved in the ring sport than I thought. Again thanks for the help everyone.
Last edited by sonwukong; 10 November 2007, 12:55 PM.
Below are the names of the Shaolin ‘equivalent’, of each Muay Thai / Muay Boran / Krabi Krabong pattern (in order of appearance) -
1. Reverse Hanging of Golden Hook
2. Rhinoceros Charges at Door
3. Thai Mountain on Head
4. White Ape Tests Cave
5. Swallow Rushes up to Sky
6. Swallow Exhibits Tail
7. Spiritual Child Climbs up Tree
Shortly, I will post the Shaolin ‘counter(s)’ to each pattern.
During the weekend, I had the chance to test out a number of the counters with very experienced Muay Thai and Malay Silat practitioners. They worked very well, however one of them needed more practice!
While testing these counters at the weekend, I found 'timing' was the key factor.
When I countered too early, the Muay Thai fighter could adapt and continue (i.e. fighting at the level of 'sequence').
When I countered too late, the Muay Thai attack had gathered more speed and strength, so the counter was 'less' effective.
The stances I used were mainly Bow Arrow and Four Six.
Principles -
'Avoid the strong points of the opponent, attack his weak points' - Naughty Monkey Kicks Tree.
'Move last, arrive first' - Green Dragon Shoots Pearl.
'He is powerful, enter from the sides. He is weak, enter from the front' - Jade Girl Kicking Shuttle.
Dear Sihing,
I don't quite understand the "Green Dragon Shoots Pearl" counter could work here could you please explain it a little bit more? It looks like the knee is still going to hit the person.
Gratefully,
Ray
"Om"
I pay homage to all the great masters of the past and the present
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). So that would actually counter the crocodile sweep.
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