Grappling and Kungfu

[J.J.Binks]

Mark,
I use muscle when grappling too. I don't even realize it until I feel extremely tired very quickly. This was what originally attracted me to tai chi, since it doesn't rely on muscular strength, but I just didn't have the patience for it. Maybe when I get older. Currently we just train jujitsu for about 15-20 minutes at the end of every workout. We don't even know what we're doing, just trying to emulate guys on UFC. But so far its been working really well. If someone doesn't know the submissions it is very easy to get them. Doesn't require much strength. I think push hands is great too, I intend to start practicing it regularly again.
My only problem with Tai Chi and the kung fu I have practiced is that it doesn't really seem to provide a solution to going to the ground other than "Don't let them take you down." Ha I've heard my classmates talk about this like its nothing...they should try fighting someone who wrestled in high school, let alone someone who wrestled in college. Now imagine fighting an olympic wrestler. They have probably trained much longer and harder at taking someone down than we have worked on our takedown defense.
I'm not saying I don't like tai chi or kung fu, I am just saying that I choose to supplement my training with some groundfighting too. It adds some variety to the training and makes for a lot of fun.

[Antonius]

I have a simple counter to all ground fighting. It is also one of the few techniques which can be applied on the moon:

Tiger Claw.

[juszczec]

Re: Grappling

Originally posted by J.J.Binks
I use muscle when grappling too. I don't even realize it until I feel extremely tired very quickly.

According to the grappling guy I work with, everyone who knows more than him says you want to be extremely relaxed and light on your feet until the last possible moment.

I used to get exhausted really fast too. When I started following his advice (and I changed my cardio from running to swimming) I stopped getting as tired.

We don't even know what we're doing, just trying to emulate guys on UFC.

Well, I'm one of the few guys on earth who's never seen a UFC competition. But, in my grappling training, I'm concentrating on:

getting them off their feet such that the head hits concrete
breaking a joint
choking (not so sure if I'll continue studying this)

I reason that, as a striker, either I'm taking someone down as a finishing technique or I've wound up on the ground and want to get back up ASAP.

If someone doesn't know the submissions it is very easy to get them.

"Its good to have a plan."

My only problem with Tai Chi and the kung fu I have practiced is that it doesn't really seem to provide a solution to going to the ground other than "Don't let them take you down."

Karate is much the same way. However, I've found principles in karate kata (not many, but I didn't really look too hard) that seem to suggest they contain some solution to this problem. I would suspect kung fu and tai chi are the same boat.

After all, we are talking about self defense - defending against any kind of spontaneous attack. If the forms are supposed to contain principles of self defense, then I suspect its there but we don't know what we're looking for. Cross training will help this a great deal.

BTW "Don't let them take you down" really translates to "I never came up with anything to do against that so stop asking because its emabarassing." Or, at least that's what it means in the karate world ;-)

Ha I've heard my classmates talk about this like its nothing...they should try fighting someone who wrestled in high school, let alone someone who wrestled in college.

2 things:

Keeping an open mind is a very difficult thing to do.

and

If ya don't know, and ya don't know ya don't know, its going to be pretty tough to figure it out on your own.

I'm not saying I don't like tai chi or kung fu, I am just saying that I choose to supplement my training with some groundfighting too. It adds some variety to the training and makes for a lot of fun.

I understand completely. I agree completely. I've done the same thing in my training. I am doing the same thing in my training and will continue to do so and encourage all of our students to do the same.

Mark

[juszczec]

Originally posted by Antonius
I have a simple counter to all ground fighting. It is also one of the few techniques which can be applied on the moon:

Tiger Claw.

Maybe I'm just dumb and am not getting the joke, but I find this a little hard to believe.

Here's why. Although I have no doubt a properly applied tiger claw will, at the very least, create an opening into which you can insert all manner of counters - one size does not fit all ie one technique is not suitable for all situations even if the situations are all similar.

If the tiger claw was the answer to all groundfighting questions then we'd all learn it and strikers would have been laughing at judoka, jujutsuka, wrestlers, BJJ'ers etc etc from the beginning of time.

I ain't that way. It just ain't that way.

As for fighting on the moon - its extremely unlikely I will be getting into trouble up there ;-)


Mark

[Antonius]

BTW "Don't let them take you down" really translates to "I never came up with anything to do against that so stop asking because its emabarassing."

I already came up with a solution! Tiger Claw. Problem solved. Just because you guys don't understand doesn't mean we didn't come up with a solution.

Do you think that grappling is a new invention? Do you think that in 2000 years of warring and fighting, the Chinese never thought of it? Do you think that Kungfu never took grappling into account despite the fact that the invading Mongols were expert wrestlers?

They did, in fact, take it into account and came up with an elegant solution: Chin Na. The Tiger Claw involves Chin Na. Taijiquan is rich with Chin Na techniques.

Since this is a Taijiquan thread and we're really straying from the topic, I'll provide another answer. To counter a shoot or a tackle, a Taijiquan master might use "Jie Li Da Li" which means: borrow force from opponent, and use his force to beat him back.

If the master ended up on the ground somehow, he could still fight. He could, for example, channel internal force to his palm and strike powerfully even while lying on his back. Or he could channel force to his fingers and grip (similar to a Tiger Claw) with enough intensity to crush bones.

The fact is that a grappler is extremely vulnerable to counter attacks from the moment he begins his shoot until he fully completes his mount. This can take a long time, at least 5-6 seconds. In a fight to the death, 1 second is an eternity. During this time, an internal master has many options, all of which are potentially lethal to his opponent.

The reason shooters and grapplers don't worry about such things is because they have never fought someone with such internal force. They are prepared to take a normal hit on the way in. They don't mind taking punches on the ground because they aren't as powerful. Unfortunately, all of this goes out the window when dealing with internal force.

Sorry folks, but attempting a shoot or a tackle on an internal master is a really bad idea. Unless your opponent is compassionate, it is suicide.

If the tiger claw was the answer to all groundfighting questions then we'd all learn it

No, because the majority don't know the methods. Others don't believe such methods work. Still others who do believe and do have the methods don't have access to a genuine master. The number of people who are left are, understandable, very few.

and strikers would have been laughing at judoka, jujutsuka, wrestlers, BJJ'ers etc etc from the beginning of time.

Not all strikers are created equally. For example, I may be a striker, but I also know Chin Na. I would consider Sifu a "striker" but he can literally crush my elbow into pulp with his Tiger Claw.

And BTW, we are laughing. We just try to do it quietly.

[Antonius]

Forget sticking to the (old) topic. I split the thread. Let's talk about grappling!

[KungFuJoe]

Hello everyone,

Although I by no means have the internal force of yourself Antonius in tiger claw, I must absolutely agree with your opinion on grappling.

My experience is that all of the techniques of jujitsu can be found in kung fu, but in a real fight with a grappler I would rather have tiger claw than a black-belt in a grappling art.

There are two reasons for this...

1) Tiger claw is more combat efficient than other forms of joint locking. You can immobilize your opponent without immobilizing yourself. Additionally, all you need to do is make contact with your opponent to apply the skill. I can grab someones throat or elbow, but really if the force is great enough you can grab anywhere in any position and get a similar result.

2) You can be compassionate with the art of tiger claw.

I'll note that I recently defeated another exponent in grappling by using this skill. He had me in the mounted position (for those of us who do not speak ju-jitsu, he had me just about defeated), when I remember Sifu Wong's book and just grabbed his throat. The fight ended there and no one was hurt. That's what I mean by efficiency and compassion!

While on this subject, I'd like to mention that I am beginning to practice Taming the Tiger as an old teacher of mine once taught me. In Master Wong's The Art of Shaolin Kung-Fu, a much more refined training method is offered, but by following it without personal instruction I would probably just hurt myself. In your opinion Antonius, is it alright to train Taming the Tiger (i.e. pushups on your fingers) on its own to safely attain at least some internal force?

Thank you very much for your help!

Joe

P.S. I changed my name from TaiChiJoe to KungFuJoe in the new forum because I decided to pursue the Shaolin Arts after careful consideration. I have the utmost respect for the great art of Tai Chi, but Kung Fu just happens to suit my personal aims and style better. No offense to anyone in the Tai Chi community!

[Antonius]

Hey Joe. Welcome back. I like the new look.

Although I by no means have the internal force of yourself Antonius in tiger claw...

Bah. We've never met! You don't know my force. I do have force, but my Tiger Claw is nothing. I don't train it seriously...yet. However, I can still rip off ears, gouge eyes, claw genitals, and tear skin. I can also grip some points, especially if you hold still.

I can grab someones throat or elbow, but really if the force is great enough you can grab anywhere in any position and get a similar result.

This is the key. There are 3 main principles in Chin Na: separating tendons, wronging joints, and gripping points. A master of Chin Na has so many potential targets -- targets that most people wouldn't think of as a target, like the hip. A grappler presents many opportunities. Many of these opportunities are actually quite easy to grab (pun intended).

In your opinion Antonius, is it alright to train Taming the Tiger (i.e. pushups on your fingers) on its own to safely attain at least some internal force?

Lots of people do pushups on their fingers without any noticeable problems. But then, lots of people do pushups on their fingers without developing any internal force.

Taming the Tiger is a relatively external method. In my opinion, if you follow the instructions respectfully, you should be fine. Just to be safe, use some Dit Da Jow (medicinal wine) and/or do some qigong therapy (like Lifting the Sky) afterwards. (I forget. Do you know some qigong?)

However, Taming the Tiger, on its own, isn't likely to give you a powerful Tiger claw. The key to a good tiger claw is internal force. Taming the Tiger does not focus on internal force. For example, Sifu has trained his Tiger Claw using several methods, but the key ingredient is internal force.

I'll tell a quick story about the Tiger Claw. Sifu recently did a test of his gripping with some inner chamber disciples. Sifu applied his claw to a disciple and asked him to tap out when the pain became unbearable. Sifu then slowly started to exert his force through the claw. The student tapped out at what Sifu estimated was only 15% of his force.

Ripley's Believe It, Or Not.

Note: I would like to point out that being on the receiving end of this kind of demonstration is actually a tremendous honor. Some disbelievers might jump up and say, "I want to feel that!" What they fail to realize is that a demonstration of such awesome power is an honor usually reserved for disciples who have earned the Master's trust.

[Quatro Bajina]

Tiger Claw!!!

Hi all,

This is my favorite discussion regarding kungfu lacking in ground fighting.
juszczec:

Antonius is 100% correct on the Tiger Claw thing. You can defeat/frustrate all locks and throws with just a simple tiger claw.

How do I know ? I use it in Hsing-I. Although the name is differ (In Hsing-I, tiger claw is basically the opening form of splitting fist, when a plam change to a fist), the application is the same. Although Hsing-I lacking in joint lock ( In Hsing-I tiger claw is only use to muscle grab, not joint lock), I can use 1 simple movement to counter virtually every throws and joint lock (Both standing and ground lock).

This is just one of the example:

Big guy executes a shoot for double leg takedown. I didn't get a chance to go for a sprawl and was taken down. He gets into a top mount and tries to execute a figure four on my right arm. He needs two hands to execute a figure four, right? My left arm is free. I can use my left arm to muscle grab the rib cage on his right side (It's open). He will feel the pain (trust me on this one, or better yet ask someone to muscle grab that area, you will feel it). I can use this opportunity to get up or reverse the mount position.

Regrading why not many people learn it?

Three reasons:
1. Antonius give you the first one.
2. People lack of confidence in kungfu ground technique.
3. If it is not used in UFC or PrideFC is totally useless (Not true!!!)

In this case 1 Tiger Claw>>>>Ground locks + throws.

[Kaijet]

Kung Fu & Groundfighting

Hello Folks,

the most people who compare different MA´s are most making the following mistake, they are comparing Sport with selfdefense!!
Even UFC fights got some rules.
Antonius is right if he is saying, I can use the Tiger Claw. But avoid the strong parts of your oponion. For me the Pro-Grapplers got also a kind of Iron Shirt, the meaning is they will feel less pain then an ordinary MA. So take with tiger claw the throat, eyes or the balls, I know it sounds hard but we are not talking about sport, we are talking about how to survive.
One of my speciality is Grappling and I know what I´m talking about. As a good grappler I try to controll both arms because I know the MA who are not very firm with groundfighting like to punch even on ground.
My advice if you are allready on ground allways move the hole body like a snake, don´t use never ever strength, so the groundfighter can´t fix you.
Grappler F- philosophy:
1. Fell him down
2. Find position
3. Fix him
4. Finish him

best regards

Kai

P.S.: If you get tired in groundfighting you are doing something wrong. Groundfighting for me is like sticky/pushing hands with the hole body

[juszczec]

Hi folks

Plenty of food for thought. Its Saturday here and I've got a bunch of stuff to do around the house before I go work out.

I've skimmed the responses, but need to give them some in depth thought before responding.

Hopefully, I'll come up with something intelligent to add in the next few days.

Mark

[J.J.Binks]

Takedown/ground defense

Anthony,
thanks for starting a new thread. This topic really deserves to be covered in depth. Good for you, at least you know people are going to try to take you down...many other martial artists never even consider this a possibility. I'm not really familiar with the Tiger Claw but it sounds like it is a good counter to jujitsu. However, I am not as confident in the other part of your solution to going to the ground.

[i]
The fact is that a grappler is extremely vulnerable to counter attacks from the moment he begins his shoot until he fully completes his mount. This can take a long time, at least 5-6 seconds. In a fight to the death, 1 second is an eternity. During this time, an internal master has many options, all of which are potentially lethal to his opponent.[/B]

This has been argued before dude. Before the UFC kids would sit around the lunch table arguing over whether the wrestler could get the boxer in a hold or if the boxer would just knock him out when he comes in. As much as I wish the striker usually knocked out the grappler, this is rarely the case in the UFC. Pro boxing and kickboxing champions are lucky if they can land ONE big strike before it goes to the ground, let alone knock the guy out. This is not to say that the striker will always lose, he'd just better know what to do on the ground. So unless you are a better striker than the kickboxers that have fought in the UFC, I would continue to invest lots of time in that Tiger Claw.
I'm not saying I think jujitsu is superior to kickboxing or kung fu; I have practiced kung fu and kickboxing much more than jujitsu, I am just saying that if a striker who has no knowledge of the ground game fights a grappler who has no knowledge of the stand up, all other things equal, the grappler will almost definitely win.
Mark,
you should check out the UFC sometime, I think you'd dig it. Just don't expect wrestlemania. These guys know what they are doing and often the fights involve strategy that make the fights boring to observers (i.e. one guy seemingly lies on top of the other). But since you are an experienced martial artist I am sure you will enjoy it.

-Jonathan

[J.J.Binks]

Re: Kung Fu & Groundfighting

Originally posted by Kaijet
Hello Folks,

the most people who compare different MA´s are most making the following mistake, they are comparing Sport with selfdefense!!
Even UFC fights got some rules.

You're right, I am not talking about self defense. As a professional fighter, I am more concerned with sport fights. The only way I am ever going to get into a real fight is if someone attacks me or a friend or if I catch my wife in bed with some guy. In both cases, I wouldn't worry about kickboxing or jujitsu, I would look for some hard objects nearby.

[i]One of my speciality is Grappling and I know what I´m talking about. As a good grappler I try to controll both arms because I know the MA who are not very firm with groundfighting like to punch even on ground. [/B]

It's not just martial artist who are not firm with groundfighting who like to punch, its Olympic medalists and collegiate wrestling champions.

[i]P.S.: If you get tired in groundfighting you are doing something wrong. Groundfighting for me is like sticky/pushing hands with the hole body [/B]

Most of the exhaustion I incurr is due to trying to hold them close to me so they can't launch big punches when they are on top of me. Other than bucking your hips up which you do to get them close to you so you can grab them, there really isn't much else you can do in this situation (as far as I know) if you do not want to eat any punches. So either you are an incredible grappler or your endurance is superhuman.

[Antonius]

Good for you, at least you know people are going to try to take you down...many other martial artists never even consider this a possibility.

For a period of about 30 years, many mainstream martial arts and martial sports forgot about wrestling and grappling, creating a serious weakness in their arts. This is the main reason for the success of Gracie Jujutsu, UFC, and the Grappling "fad." The "grapplers" pounced on the weakness in the "strikers" and made them look like fools.

However, this does not meant that, during the past 30 years or the 2000 years before that, practitioners of genuine Kungfu had the same weakness. They did not.

This has been argued before dude.

I'm sure it has, dude!

...arguing over whether the wrestler could get the boxer in a hold or if the boxer would just knock him out when he comes in.

I wasn't talking about Boxing. Western Boxing is extremely vulnerable to wrestling.

Pro boxing and kickboxing champions are lucky if they can land ONE big strike before it goes to the ground

I have yet to see any high-level Kickboxers fighting in UFC or the other NHB tournaments. In any case, we are talking about internal martial arts here. Landing one strike is more than enough.

Furthermore, there other many other "strikes" that can be landed during the transition from standing to grappling. In Kungfu, there are 4 categories of attack, Da, Ti, Die, Na (Striking, Kicking, Felling, Chin Na). If a grappler gets past my striking, kicking, and felling (easier said than done), then he still has to contend with my Chin Na.

Let's talk about some easy Chin Na. Ears are very easy to rip off. Eyes are easy to gouge from the ground. The larynx is quite easy to rip out of the throat. Interestingly, all of these "strikes" are illegal in UFC and Pride, let alone the more powerful applications of Chin Na. These are the kind of strikes I was talking about when I mentioned that grapplers are vulnerable for several seconds.

if a striker who has no knowledge of the ground game fights a grappler who has no knowledge of the stand up, all other things equal, the grappler will almost definitely win.

In my opinion, both of these fighters are incomplete. When talking about incomplete fighters and their arts, it is always a game of Rock, Paper, Scissor. I'm not interested in these games.

So unless you are a better striker than the Kickboxers that have fought in the UFC

I am. The strikers I have seen in UFC are a disgrace. None of them can even begin to compare to the Karate and Muay Thai masters I have met, let alone the Kungfu masters with internal force.

So either you are an incredible grappler or your endurance is superhuman.

He's both.

[J.J.Binks]

Disgrace!

The strikers I have seen in UFC are a disgrace. None of them can even begin to compare to the Karate and Muay Thai masters I have met, let alone the Kungfu masters with internal force.

I am not going to argue whether the strikers in the UFC are better than those you have worked with as this would be pure speculation on my part. I just figured the best guys would come forward and fight, whereas I guess in actuality the best guys stay low while the worst guys come forward to test their skills. Also, I think you have to be pretty good just to get into the UFC.
Former UFC champion Maurice Smith was also a K-1 veteran, I think he may have been the champ at one point, and although he won the UFC championship he was taken down several times in the process.
One strike may be critical when we are talking about a master with internal force but it is also critical when we are talking about a pro boxer who benches 500 lbs.
As for labeling them a "disgrace", I think that is a rather harsh generalization for athletes who are willing to put it all on the line for millions to see by accepting this challenge, regardless of the outcome. We're not talking about point sparring here, these guys have guts.