Grappling and Kungfu

[juszczec]

Originally posted by 1ONEfighting
(walking into the Olympics and medalling in TKD comes to mind)

I'm glad someone metioned this, I wanted to make a comment.

IMO, the TKD establishment would never let this happen. If you don't compete with their rules, using their allowable techniques even if you knock out all the competition you won't get the gold.

What would happen? The same thing as if a TKD player got a fight with Roy Jones Jr and kicked him in the groin, or if a karate guy started punching folks in the head at a TKD tournament, or if a judoka threw someone in a Muay Thai match - you get the idea, disqualification, removal from the event, blacklisting from future events etc etc etc.

Plus the fact that most people, at least in the US, wouldn't hear about it. I'm guessing the only country where Olympic TKD competition is advertised and broadcast at a convenient viewing time is Korea.

And even if word did get out, what would it get you? Among other things, you'd get the general public lining up outside your school wanting to be shown (in 6 easy lessons) how to do exactly what you did. After realizing that it actually takes work to get results, most of them would quit and some of those would enrich the McDojos and McKwoons of the world.

Mark

[juszczec]

Re: Mark, who's side are you on

Originally posted by J.J.Binks
I was j/k about that whole debate/argument/war thing. I don't want to "convert" anyone to any way of thinking either, I couldn't anyway. Just meant it would be nice to have another guy with training methods/philosophy similar to ours. (assuming his methods are similar, the post sounded like he trains more like you or I than most of the other people on here).

No problem. I just didn't want anyone to misunderstand and think there really were lines being drawn and sides being chosen.

Mark

[1ONEfighting]

And don't forget that Olympic level taekwondoists aren't just guys from some McDojo, either. They are the best America has to offer (in their sport), and train for a living at the Olympic training center in Colorado. Over eight hours a day of living and breathing their art. The Olympics is not an open tournament. You have to make it through several qualifiers, and the Olympic Trials.

Now that my rant is over, back to your regularly scheduled program, Grappling and Kung Fu, already in progress.

[juszczec]

Originally posted by 1ONEfighting
And don't forget that Olympic level taekwondoists aren't just guys from some McDojo, either. They are the best America has to offer (in their sport), and train for a living at the Olympic training center in Colorado. Over eight hours a day of living and breathing their art. The Olympics is not an open tournament. You have to make it through several qualifiers, and the Olympic Trials.

This is an important point to remember. My teacher competed on the US Karate team thru the 90s. So did one of the students from our dojo. The amount of work these guys do, both with the team and on their own (so what they do with the team won't kill them), is unbelievable.

Whats necessary to excel at Open tournaments even closed style local and regional events doesn't come close to how team members trained.

Mark

[Antonius]

Just got back from some sparring with Darryl and Dan.

In case anyone is actually interested, I have sparred with many good TKD fighters, including one of Herb Perez`s (Olympic Gold 1992) sparring partners. I have also sparred with national Karate champions, powerful Kickboxers, good grapplers and wrestlers, skilled Jujutsu fighters, various mixed martial artists, and genuine Kungfu experts with and without internal force. I have also had direct experience (from 2 different masters) of a powerful Tiger Claw.

I am fully aware of the steps involved in qualifying for the Olympic team.

I'm curious. Do people actually read my posts? Do I come across as some sort of daydreaming fool who enjoys making idle comments? Do I seem that uninformed?

Some of you know me directly. I think that many of you who haven't yet met me can still tell from my words that I speak not only from intellectual understanding, but from direct experience. Nevertheless, some of you who have never met me and don't seem to know anything about me still presume to know something about me and my abilities.

I find this fascinating.

[juszczec]

Anthony

A day dreaming fool? I wouldn't have come here if a daydreaming fool invited me. You don't come across like that.

When you posted the bit about winning the Olympic TKD event using with Shaolin kung fu I did wonder if you were aware of the politics and nonsense that surrounds MA competitions. Especially at the international level where lotsa $$$ are at risk. I couldn't tell and I assumed you were serious.

Mark

[1ONEfighting]

You are correct, in some respects, Antonius. I do not know you and have not met you. As yet, this is the only thread I have read on this forum. But on this thread your comments have appeared highly pretentious, and lacking in the humility usually reserved for the discipline to which you subscribe, which led to my first impression of you.

[J.J.Binks]

Cheer up sleepy Gene

Anthony,
I had refrained from voicing my doubt regarding your claims because a) it is your website and b) I am sure in real life we would be friends, so I am not going to argue with you just because I don't believe a few of your claims and c) just because you think or act differently than me in certain situations doesn't mean you are lying (I can't understand why you wouldn't go get that gold if you thought you had even an outside shot). BUT, since you asked, I will tell you how your claims sounded to me: disrespectful and hard to believe. It seems like kung fu guys show so much respect for their master that they don't have any left over for anyone else. To call the UFC guys a disgrace, to label yourself a better striker than them, that made me mad. As far as I know you have not put your skills to the same test that these guys have...sure you may have sparred some tough cats, but believe me, the anxiety of that doesn't compare to competition. Maybe you are a better striker than them, but they train hard too and have guts. Nothing I haven't already said, but also...
The fact that you claimed you could win a gold medal in the olympics and then stated that there was no real reason to do so made me think you could not really do it. Come on Anthony, are you telling me you DON'T want that medal? Getting first place in a national tournament is a great feeling, I can't imagine what it would feel like in the olympics. As Mark said, people would line up to learn from you (And hey Mark, who cares if they are good students or not or if they leave after the first day: that's what contracts are for ). Who knows Anthony, I bet you could tool me in a street fight, but you don't know what it is like to compete. You are tired before it even starts. You might throw up before the fight, almost definitely will afterwards.
The fact is, kung fu guys talk and talk and talk, but kung fu has yet to be put to the test against other martial arts. We are not impressed by your battles with all these masters of other styles. I've picked apart world champions in the gym before, sounds impressive, don't it? Phshaw! I am conveniently leaving out one minor detail, they were at the end of their careers and I'm only 21. So all these stories don't mean jack. Truth can be found within the walls of the Octagon or in a ring. No talking, just action.
As I said before, I am sure we could be great training buddies in real life, but sometimes it seems like you are daydreaming. Kung fu can't be THAT good, everything else can't be THIS bad.

[Antonius]

I do not know you and have not met you. As yet, this is the only thread I have read on this forum. But on this thread your comments have appeared highly pretentious, and lacking in the humility usually reserved for the discipline to which you subscribe, which led to my first impression of you.

In my opinion, this is largely a matter of perspective, or lack thereof. I am a Shaolin disciple. I follow the 10 Shaolin laws (http://shaolin-wahnam.tripod.com/general/laws.html). I am a serious Buddhist. I practice compassion, even when fighting an opponent trying to do me harm. To some, my comments may seem pretentious. From my perspective, they are honest. In the spirit of the 10th Shaolin Law, I speak the truth as I understand it. According to Shaolin philosophy, I base my understanding not merely on intellectual speculation, but on direct experience.

Trent, you joined our forum and immediately started insulting us in your first post.

I thought I was going to find an enlightened group of individuals discussing the merits and techniques and philosophies of their respective system. What I find is an exclusionist, elitist, xenophobic group of daydreamers and wannabes.

We are not enlightened and have never claimed to be. Nor is our teacher, not does he claim to be. We do have excellent discussions not only on techniques and philosophies, but also on force training, energy cultivation, and spirituality. There are many visitors who practice other systems here, but this is the official forum for the Shaolin Wahnam Institute. There are many other forums dedicated to Chinese or Japanese or Mixed martial arts. This is not one of them.

Since this is our forum, I feel very free to speak my mind. Unlike many martial artists these days, I am not politically correct. Many of the things that I say are controversial. In the spirit of the 4th Shaolin Law, I choose to say them anyway.

I believe that the art I am practicing is superior. I have very high standards. If I did not believe this, I would practice something else. I practice Shaolinquan because I believe it is superior, not the other way around. I went to an Ivy League college because I thought it was superior. I studied violin at Juilliard because I thought it was superior. Now I practice Shaolinquan with Sifu Wong because I think it is the best.

This not what some people want to hear. People these days want to hear that all martial arts are good and have something to offer. I do not subscribe to this view. I believe (based on direct experience) that some martial arts offer more harm than good. I do not believe that all martial arts are created equally. If this makes me elitist, then so be it.

That is my opinion, and one that is prevalent on this forum. You are entitled to your own opinion. You are even entitled to express that opinion on our forum. If you would like to express an opinion on grappling technique, please go right ahead. However, I would recommend that you read a bit on this forum or our website so that you have a better understanding of what we do. If you are not interested in understanding what we do, then this probably isn't the right community for you.

[1ONEfighting]

This actually WILL be my last post.

The "Insult" you referred to was the truth as I tell it. If you did not appear pretentious before, I am quite positive your last post cemented it. You are a boastful piece of work, and according to your own beliefs, you have already lost due to your anger.

I also have studied Tai Chi, and Shaolin Fu. I am no "Ivy Leaguer", but I am smart enough to realize that no art in and of itself is flawless. The inherent humanity in these arts we all love is also their shortcoming.

And, for the record, I never meant to insult the entire forum. I corrected that several posts ago. My comments were aimed directly at you.

I will now flee to the security and safety of my other message boards, www.mma.tv , www.martialartsplanet.com , www.karateforums.com

Thank you, and have a nice day.

[juszczec]

Re: Cheer up sleepy Gene

Gotta get some thoughts in before the firestorm erupts.

Originally posted by J.J.Binks
As Mark said, people would line up to learn from you (And hey Mark, who cares if they are good students or not or if they leave after the first day: that's what contracts are for ).

I disagree. I've trained and taught the interested, willing to work and those who just showed up. The vibe is better when you've got folks who put more effort in than going thru the motions. The contract payers who are just honoring the contract are a pain in my backside I'd rather avoid.

I also realize you have to do business like this if you teach for a living. I'm lucky, I support myself as a programmer.

but kung fu has yet to be put to the test against other martial arts.

Ummmm, China's got a 5000 year history. I think its safe to say kung fu has been up against lots of things. And so what? All MA are collections of principles. Saying any one set of principles is better than another is silly.

Unless you mean tested in the UFC. That would be equally as silly. Styles like kung fu and karate are designed to give you an edge over an unskilled thug. Maybe, if you practice an awful lot, you can get to the point where you can fight for your life against people with equal or more experience and not die in the process.

The UFC is a competition between people with equal skills. All the results prove is who had the better day, you got lucky and who can apply the priciples of their style better. It proves nothing about the validity of the principles.

Survival of the fittest, over hundreds of years, weeded out the ineffective principles.

Truth can be found within the walls of the Octagon or in a ring.

Lots of things can be found out in competition but I think the only truth is which individual has more experience and can adapt quicker.

Kung fu can't be THAT good, everything else can't be THIS bad.

Now this statement I agree with 100%.

Mark

[juszczec]

Originally posted by Antonius
Unlike many martial artists these days, I am not politically correct.

Ummmmmm, I've seen lots of stuff but I don't think I've ever seen a politically correct martial artist.

I believe that the art I am practicing is superior. I have very high standards.

I can believe high standards. I can even believe you have a better teacher than most. But your art is a collection of principles just like any other. The man makes the style.

I went to an Ivy League college because I thought it was superior. I studied violin at Juilliard because I thought it was superior.

But you learned the same facts in the Ivy League as I did in my state run commuter college. And I learned the same notes and scales in my elementary school band as you did at Juilliard.

And we've ended up in roughly the same place. You work for a living in the technology sector and don't support yourself making music.

Me too.

This not what some people want to hear. People these days want to hear that all martial arts are good and have something to offer. I do not subscribe to this view. I believe (based on direct experience) that some martial arts offer more harm than good. I do not believe that all martial arts are created equally. If this makes me elitist, then so be it.

Whoever puts in the better quality training time may not be the one who dies first. Style is irrelevant. In some cases, you can even make up for the lack of a skilled teacher. It ain't easy, but it ain't impossible.

You will also find that the great, unwashed masses take a dim view of being spoken down to.

Gotta give my kid a bath.

Mark

[J.J.Binks]

Clarification

Mark,
allow me to explain as I wrote that message in a hurry. I'm sure kung fu guys have beaten karate, muay thai, wrestling guys etc. I've heard countless stories of this. I should have said "I personally have never witnessed kung fu against another martial art". When guys at my school brag about how great kung fu (which is every 5 minutes) they usually say, "Oh our teachers classmate beat a praying mantis guy, so what we do is the best!" In all of these stories, it is chinese vs. chinese martial arts. And on the rare occasion when I do hear stories about a kung fu master defeating a BJJ guy, I wonder, well how good was that BJJ guy? I don't know, b/c I wasn't there. If a kung fu guy entered the UFC and won, I would give him lots of credit, as he would be fighting a great fighter.
While the truth found in competition may be limited, it shows us a lot more truth than all the talking that goes on in the martial arts world.

[Quatro Bajina]

Just my two cents:

Unless you mean tested in the UFC. That would be equally as silly. Styles like kung fu and karate are designed to give you an edge over an unskilled thug. Maybe, if you practice an awful lot...

I don't agree that Karate and Kungfu don't give you advantage over other MA. If this were the case, then why would the master invent the style to begin with?? If the style don't give you any advantage over other MA,unless you train really hard, then why bother learning? People like Mas Oyama, Guo Yuen Shen, Wong Fei Hung, Yang Lu Chan had proven otherwise. You teach Karate, am I right ? If you don't mind me asking, why do you learn this good art if you think it will not give you an edge over other MA unless you train really hard ? Do you have any other motives like health and fitness?

Saying any one set of principles is better than another is silly.

Mark, I don't get what you are saying here, would you mind explain this further? As far as I know, there are couple of principles that are better than others.

Example, how to defend against a sidekick. There are several options:
1. Block it
2. Dodge it
3. Grab it
4. Hit the attacking leg.

IMO, 1 < 2<3/4 . Now isn't this means principles 3 and 4 are better than 1 and 2? Or your definitions of principles differ from mine ?

[insomniac]

Hi, Im one of those pesky grappler/cross trainer types. I know a little bit about gung fu though. Here is my answer to some questions about grappling I saw earlier in the thread.

Do they ever develop good punching or kicking skills?

If they cross train. One of the members of my jiu jitsu class was a state champion in amateur boxing, another has trained privately with Roberto Duran and won high level Muay Thai matches. I could go on.
Do they ever become skilled with weapons, or against weapons?

Traditional BJJ has knife defense drills. It depends a lot on the club in question. Personally I can shoot pretty straight... no Kwan Do skills though.

Do they become skilled at fighting against multiple opponents?
Grappling is more effective against one opponent, but it is an important component in any self defense situation.
Do they become healthy and full of vitality as a result of their trianing?
Most do. If they don't, they lose a lot. Regular exercise and a good diet seem to have positive effects on both grapplers and kung fu people strangely enough.
Are they still powerful even in their 50s, 60s, and 70s?
Helio Gracie seems to be doing fine at 90+.
Do they develop mental clarity and become become more peaceful?
Mental clarity, I think so. Peaceful, not really. I would like to see the evidence that any martial artist really becomes more enlightened through practising to hurt people.

Do they become more compassionate and tolerant?
Well, we spend a lot of time rolling around on the ground with a pretty broad cross section of society. Probably not though. Once again I haven't noticed a whole lot of open mindedness in the MA community as a whole. Bickering and infighting seem pretty much universal.


PS Nin shuo zhongwen ma?