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Back to the subject. In my opinion, that video is a good example of a bad example of a “Striker” in a grappling situation. Someone mentioned that the Strikers have gotten better in recent UFCs. This may be true, but the ones I saw in the past were unimpressive. The Strikers were slightly better than the guy in this video, but then again, so were the grapplers.
My point is this: the majority of the noise made from UFC and the other tournaments is just that -- noise. It doesn't prove that BJJ is better than Kungfu. It proves that those Grapplers under those circumstances under those rules were able to dominate those Strikers.
One of the major arguments made by the Grapplers is that Striking arts are incomplete because they are lacking in ground fighting skills. Grapplers tend to laugh at anyone who doesn't learn the sprawl or some other basic ground skills. To me, this argument seems hypocritical.
The same thing can be said about BJJ and other grappling arts. They are also incomplete, and arguably much more incomplete. Grapplers presume to make up for their inadequacies by cross training in other arts, but do they succeed?
Do they ever develop good punching or kicking skills?
Do they ever become skilled with weapons, or against weapons?
Do they become skilled at fighting against multiple opponents?
Do they become healthy and full of vitality as a result of their trianing?
Are they still powerful even in their 50s, 60s, and 70s?
Do they develop mental clarity and become become more peaceful?
Do they become more compassionate and tolerant?
Most Grapplers I know are not interested in these goals, which is fine. All of their training is towards one goal -- competition. These are martial sports, not martial arts. Training methods change in accordance with the rules of competition. They may be more brutal than other sports, but they are still sports. Ask any Grappler if he wants to fight allowing eye strikes, knee strikes, groin strikes, throat strikes, clawing, biting, and head butting, and I bet he will say no.
Just as Grappling can exploit the weaknesses in some fighters who are not familiar with Grappling, Kungfu can exploit weaknesses in fighters not familiar with Kungfu. Many people think that they know something about Kungfu, but most of them do not. In fact, most of them have probably never seen real Kungfu in action.
The response to this statement will probably be "show us." Unfortunately, it’s not that easy. I will do what I can in the near future. Within the next few months, I hope to have some videos that will better illustrate my points.
However, many Grapplers will never be convinced, not even in person. Not all techniques are as easy to “show” as submission techniques. There are many techniques (like the ones that are not allowed in UFC) that simply cannot be "shown" against an unwilling, resisting, skeptical opponent. Here's a story to illustrate.
After a long discussion not unlike this one, I finally squared off with a Grappler. Before we started, I told him what was likely to happen. I told him that I would probably tap between his eyebrows to simulate an eye strike. I asked him very nicely not to hurt me because I wasn't going to hurt him. He agreed, but I don't htink he was really listening.
He tried a few typical tricks, then shot in for a tackle. As he was coming in, I tapped him gently on the forehead. He didn't notice and continued what he was doing. Before the mount, I managed to grab his ear, but I quickly let go because he was being aggressive and I was afraid of doing damage. The fight ended when he eventually got me into a submission arm lock. I tapped out. He wanted to continue sparring. I said “no thanks.”
This is an example of why we don't enjoy sparring with Grapplers. They are, by Kungfu standards, rude partners. This Grappler probably told all of his friends that he made a Kungfu guy submit. That's fine. I know what happened. I guessed what would happen even before it happened. I tried to explain this to him politely, but he wasn't interested.
Submission techniques are excellent for "showing" because there is no debate. An arm lock causes enough pain to make you give up. Everyone knows you've lost.
On the other hand, a simulated eye strike is unlikely to make modern competition fighters give up. In the old days, a fighter would not only notice, but acknowledge such an act of compassion (tapping the eyebrow) during a duel. He would immediately admit defeat, and might even get on his knees and beg to be accepted as a student.
Tapping the eyebrows is a great way to spar, but I prefer to hit the middle of the forehead. There's less chance of accidentally missing .
It is wonderful Antonius that you continue to help us students by responding in this forum and answering questions. It is of immense value. Much of what you are sharing would have been considered very privileged until recently. It would be difficult to overstate the value of Master Wong's books and of this web-presence to kung-fu students everywhere. We may not be able to get far without personal instruction, but at least we can remain on the right path.
I just felt that in all of the criticism that has been occuring of traditional kung-fu and in comparing it to UFC, someone needed to say thank you for sharing your teaching so generously.
Anyway back to the point: grappling. Earlier I mentioned that I thought Shaolin stances leave the lead leg vulnerable to the low side-kick. I misphrased myself...
A better question would have been, if you throw a patter such as Black Tiger Steals Heart or Poisonous Snake using a bow and arrow stance, how do you defend against the opponent's lead leg low sidekick or stomping counter? The punch would probably be blocked by dodging it without moving the feet. What's your favourite defense?
Tapping the eyebrows is a great way to spar, but I prefer to hit the middle of the forehead. There's less chance of accidentally missing.
That works too. I just like the eyebrow thing because Sifu did it to me the first time I sparred with him.
It is wonderful Antonius that you continue to help us students by responding in this forum and answering questions.
My pleasure. It's nice to know someone enjoys reading my rants.
someone needed to say thank you for sharing your teaching so generously.
I don't know if I would necessarily call it "teaching," but you're very welcome. I'm offering my opinion based on my knowledge and experience. I do not pretend to speak for Sifu, though I am confident that he would agree with the majority of what I have said here. Guess I'll find out when I see him on Monday.
...if you throw a patter such as Black Tiger Steals Heart or Poisonous Snake using a bow and arrow stance, how do you defend against the opponent's lead leg low sidekick or stomping counter?
In our combat sequences, we have this exact situation except against a middle Side Kick (Happy Bird Hops up Branch). The defense against this kick is to retreat the lead leg into a sideways Bow and Arrow while simultaneously striking the kick using "Lohan Strikes Drum."
If the attack is a low side Kick (White Crane Steps on Snow), one good counter would be "Angry Leopard Charges Rock." This pattern can be found in Sifu's book "The Art of Shaolin Kungfu" in the Five Animal Set. It involves quickly retreating the lead leg from Bow and Arrow to False Leg while simultaneously shooting a low Leopard fist, striking the kicking leg and employing the principle of no defense, direct counter. If you have a powerful Leopard fist, this can cause considerable damage to your opponent's ankle or knee. If he withdraws his kick too quickly to strike, then you have still evaded the attack.
This technique is highly effective, but you need solid skills in order to pull it off. You also need the necessary force for your Leopard fist.
Antonius , I'm sure I don't need to tell you , but what you did in that situation with that grappler was the right thing to do . To me , it is obvious who won that fight . My Sigung has told us that if we ever get into a sparring match , and beating that person becomes the most important thing , we have already lost before we have thrown the first strike ( regardless of the outcome ) .
Although that person got an ego-boost out of it ( giving him a false sense of security which might be dangerous in the future ) . At least you don't now have an arch-enemy , continuously seeking out ways of how to avenge the loss of his eyeball, which you may have destroyed if you had not shown him compassion . I can see it now , Grappler Gav and His evil ( and grappling ) horde .
Mark , I can identify with getting one to the old family jewels from a small child while play fighting ( although not from my child ,who isn't real ). There is the moment of utter confidence before the event where you are thinking ," Yep , this kid has heart. Maybe one day he will surpass me and become a great fighter " . Then you have this expression ; . It is a timeless expression that the victim has no control over . What has happened ? Why is my head spinning ? Surely he wouldn't ? Oh I wish I had a titanium Cod-piece at a time like this .
Seriously , the fact that a small child can bring such a surprise makes you wonder what kind of other surprises can occur during a real fight with a quick minded and brutal adult . This is one of the reasons that avoiding combat is preferable to all other defenses . Among other things , it eliminates the possible elimination of your child-making facilities .
Antonius said:
Most Grapplers I know are not interested in these goals, which is fine. All of their training is towards one goal -- competition. These are martial sports, not martial arts. Training methods change in accordance with the rules of competition. They may be more brutal than other sports, but they are still sports. Ask any Grappler if he wants to fight allowing eye strikes, knee strikes, groin strikes, throat strikes, clawing, biting, and head butting, and I bet he will say no.
Very valid point Anthony. However, let's not underestimate BJJ (brazilian jujitsu). Let me pose a hypothetical situation, a fantasy match if you will. If Royce Gracie or another BJJ master were to fight a very violent, brutal, out-to-kill individual, I think Royce would still win. Here's why:
While he would be vulnerable to biting, pinching, scratching, ball-grabbing, ball grabbing is about the only one that's probably going to put him out of commission. For example, let's say some maniac bites Royce's face, arm, leg or whatever. Now you've ticked off a guy who trains 8 hours a day. In the heat of battle, even if the bite is deep, Royce may feel a little bit of pain (I once hit my head on a chair and didn't feel it) and it is not going to end the fight. What is going to end the fight? Well Royce would have many options, he might choke the guy out, he might choose to break both arms and/or legs or he might knock the guy unconscious. My point, BJJ has value on the street in a one-on-one situation, where the guys' fellow gang members don't interfere when their "blood" starts losing (yes, I know, such an event hasn't occured since 1987 and that was in a Michael Jackson video).
I do concede however, that if I were fighting a raging psychopath, I would rather be a master of kung fu than jujitsu (to avoid getting bit).
Oh and let's not forget guys, after the guy I described above regains consciousness, learns how to walk again, gets the casts off of his arms, and gets a set of metal teeth, he's probably going to come looking for the BJJ master again, and this time he will probably have a gun. The moral of the story, don't fight if you don't have to.
OK guys, I know at least one of you is thinking "Binks is forgetting something!" And I realized it about 30 seconds after posting my previous message. My main point was that the BJJ master's techniques would be more effective in winning a fight than the maniac's (biting). I still stand by that position, with one exception: said maniac has AIDS. And you never can tell, so yes I admit this is a serious shortcoming of groundfighting on the street, not to mention the guy might have friends nearby: Junkies in the ally with a baseball bat!
Originally posted by J.J.Binks If Royce Gracie or another BJJ master were to fight a very violent, brutal, out-to-kill individual, I think Royce would still win
Without focusing on specific people (since we are discussing styles and not people), in my opinion this is not true. Please note that I am talking of the 'BJJ master', not specific people.
One of my friends was recently telling about his instructor’s recent trip to train with the Gracie's (themselves, not their method). The instructor travels over to train with them frequently and is a very skilled practioner and BJJ instructor himself. Since the instructor is also very skilled with weapons, he was asked to teach some of the student’s knifework. What he found was that while the BJJ practitioners had an excellent stance for grappling (solid, strong, effective) they were unaware of the weaknesses in their stance, especially when facing an opponent with a knife. They were concentrating on the methods that they knew and were innocent of the targets they were exposing.
This to me is the flaw in concentrating in a 'closed style'. One of the Shaolin Wahnam instructors made a comment once regarding cross-training. He said that if you are cross-training, then you are stating that you believe your art to be incomplete. This is nothing to do with right and wrong, just simple exposure. While everyone will specialise in certain areas, ranges, methods etc I firmly believe you have to be aware of something to be able to pose a reasonable defence.
Sifu's comment about having the map and knowing the routes makes perfect sense in relation to this example and to me, it shows the difference between arts and sports. A style that includes all aspects and all ranges will stand you in far better stead than one that relies on rules and referee’s to keep you safe. I believe it is rather foolish to limit the responses you expect to receive from your opponent.
Therefore I do not believe that a Grappler would defeat a Kungfu practitioner, since the Kungfu practitioner can use weapons (both ranged and held), poisons and other assorted extras. If a Kungfu practitioner accepts the rules and regulations that favoured the Grappling arts and did not have, or did not wish to use, internal force, then I believe the Grappler would defeat the Kungfu practitioner. By using this arguement, the same Grappler would then lose to a Figure Skater in a Figure Skating competition if they competed using the Figure Skater's rules and regulations.
Wow. This is my first, and probably my last post here. I am a member of many other forums, one of which brought me here, and I thought I was going to find an enlightened group of individuals discussing the merits and techniques and philosophies of their respective system.
What I find is an exclusionist, elitist, xenophobic group of daydreamers and wannabes.
If taken to the ground, use tiger claw. Why, it's so simple, how did no one else think of this! News flash. If you are mounted, and you grab at their throat, that is textbook armbar position. Amazing! Or you can eye gouge, or bite, or groin grab. Revolutionary!
It never ceases to amaze me how you hold yourselves to such lofty ideals, training in your respective art for so many years, then when you finally get thrown in the pressure cooker, you immediately revert into a biting, eyegouging, groin grabbing, clawing three year old.
Why train at all? Just hone your technique on a piece of gum, or a tough steak.
If you can't beat them WITH rules, what on earth makes you think you can beat them without them?
To crosstrain demonstrates a lack of faith in your style? There is only one style, and that is your own. If you wrestled in high school, and later took up Kung Fu, does this mean you must never use wrestling again?
You claim to fight (or pretend to fight) with no limits, yet you contradict and limit yourselves at every turn.
You make mixed martial artists out to be untrained, unskilled thugs who see the martial arts as nothing but a means to a paycheck. By painting everyone with the same brush, you paint yourselves into a corner.
Open your eyes. Every art has a wealth of information to offer, but none can cover everything.
Have fun telling stories about beating up five football players with baseball bats in a parking lot. Make sure you don't leave out the part where you go home with the girl.
What I find is an exclusionist, elitist, xenophobic group of daydreamers and wannabes.
Trent
Hang around and talk for a while. I think your point of view would lead to alot of learning for everyone.
I can't say I completely agree with your description of the people posting. I know many of the members here do not share my views or approve of the training methods I use, but I've never experienced what you mention. Personally, I learn more from people who don't agree with me than those who do. The saying about preaching to the choir comes to mind.
And I'm pretty thick skinned and don't particularly care if someone is trying to insult me. And I'm confident enough in my own methods to not get nuts if someone tells me I'm wrong.
If taken to the ground, use tiger claw. Why, it's so simple, how did no one else think of this! News flash. If you are mounted, and you grab at their throat, that is textbook armbar position. Amazing! Or you can eye gouge, or bite, or groin grab. Revolutionary!
That's why any strategy needs to at least be walked thru with a semi uncooperative training partner. Although the first technique might make sense, you never know what the reaction is going to be.
Its also why I recommend cross training. Ya gotta put it to some kind of test - especially if you are going to use it to keep your grandmother from getting raped.
It never ceases to amaze me how you hold yourselves to such lofty ideals, training in your respective art for so many years, then when you finally get thrown in the pressure cooker, you immediately revert into a biting, eyegouging, groin grabbing, clawing three year old.
I agree. Lofty ideals are great, but MA training is about survival. Good health, a calm mind and happiness are secondary benefits.
BTW, for the record - I'll be the first to start biting, clawing, eye gouging, groin grabbing, hitting people with rocks and things worse than this if my survival is threatened and someone's safety is at risk.
Why train at all? Just hone your technique on a piece of gum, or a tough steak.
Dude, you're making me hungry
If you can't beat them WITH rules, what on earth makes you think you can beat them without them?
Agreed. But one of the problems involves finding a highly trained person from elsewhere who is open minded enough to admit "Yeah, you got me."
I tried to organize an MMA like training session last year. My goal was to invite wrestlers, BJJers, jujutsuka, judoka, TKD, kung fu, karate and anyone who was interested and capable of "sparring" without leaving the other guy incapacitated. It was going to be a learning experience and you can't learn when you are worried about getting beat up.
Putting the strikers together was no problem. Neither was putting the grapplers together.
What ultimately killed the whole idea was how to get the two different approaches to play nice. How do you get a grappler to realize that the elbow to the head would stop them OR how do you get the striker to realize that you may have hit them in the head but they had momentum on their side and the shoot would have taken you down anyway. I envisioned people getting pissed off, injuries and lawsuits and scrapped the whole idea.
To crosstrain demonstrates a lack of faith in your style? There is only one style, and that is your own.
I agree. My school encourages everyone to cross train. Its one of the reasons I'm still there.
You claim to fight (or pretend to fight) with no limits, yet you contradict and limit yourselves at every turn.
The only time there is fighting with no limits is when you are trying to destroy an attacker. Everyone practices with rules. Some use more than others, some folks use rules that mimic those they'll compete with, but everyone uses them. Otherwise everytime we train we'd run the risk to injury or death.
Ya can't learn anything when you're worried about saving your own skin. And eventually you run out of training partners.
You make mixed martial artists out to be untrained, unskilled thugs who see the martial arts as nothing but a means to a paycheck.
I can't speak for anyone but myself and I don't view anyone this way. There are plenty of frauds in the MA to be disgusted with. I respect the fact that MMA folks are willing to put themselves at risk. The entire MA world can learn from this. I'm only sorry the entire MA world isn't listening and doesn't care.
For the record, I don't respect people who are unwilling to admit the other guy might not be wrong.
What do you train? Which lists are you on?
And hang around, I think you got a bad first impression.
Trent,
I get mad when I train my butt off only to have people say stuff like "Sports aren't realistic." But still, it is their website, and I appreciate them letting me share my views. While I agree with you on martial arts, and that some people here are elitist, it's still a good forum. BTW Trent, so what if we are wannabees and daydreamers, aren't internet forums where we belong then? I also recommend you stick around and help me and Mark in the debate since we seem greatly outnumbered.
Originally posted by J.J.Binks
I also recommend you stick around and help me and Mark in the debate since we seem greatly outnumbered.
I really don't know if outnumbered is the right word. I'm not trying to "win" anything or change the way anyone thinks, all I'm doing to giving my point of view and opinions and listening to those of other people.
I've got a big mouth and lots of opinions
And, I've gotten used to people thinking alot of my opinions are nuts
Alright, I may also have painted everyone here with the same brush. I realize not all Wahnam members are daydreamers and wannabes. (walking into the Olympics and medalling in TKD comes to mind)
I was j/k about that whole debate/argument/war thing. I don't want to "convert" anyone to any way of thinking either, I couldn't anyway. Just meant it would be nice to have another guy with training methods/philosophy similar to ours. (assuming his methods are similar, the post sounded like he trains more like you or I than most of the other people on here).
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