Grappling and Kungfu

[juszczec]

Ok. My wife's home, her volleyball game is over and she's hanging out with our son.

My eyes still burn, but that's spring in NE Ohio

Antoinius wrote:


>Joints like the wrist, ankle, and elbow are good
>targets for “wronging joints.”


This is a great description of what you are doing to someone when you attack their joints.


>The fingers are good for “separating tendons.”

Does this mean you can use the fingers to attack the tendons or does it mean "wronging" the finger joints also "separate tendons"? I've seen some finger locks that do both, and I'm just curious.

>LOL. Sorry. It was more of a rhetorical rant. It
>wasn't directed at you, but rather at those
>people who might take your above statement
>seriously.

No problem. Any MA that gets big media coverage develops its own following of true believers. Folks who really do think practitioners of their particular MA can do anything. It was ascribed to Bruce Lee in the 70s (and yes, I'm old enough to remember ) There was a similar camp around ninjutsu in the 80s. The grappling/BJJ true believers are alot more vocal and alot less polite, but chalk it up as a sign of the times.

> I've learned Chin Na from Dr. Yang.

Good for you! I think his books are great and I like his ideas. What's training with him like?


>Tiger Claw is an Art, not just a technique. The
>Art of Tiger Claw includes techniques, skills,
>tactics, strategies, and force training methods.


This seems to be the typical Chinese approach. There is a technique and surrounding it are methods to develop and use it.


>The methods for training Tiger Claw force are
>extensive. Coincidentally, some of these
>methods will be discussed in an article soon to
>be released by Sifu on his website.


I'll keep an eye out ( no pun intended) for it.



>And yes, it is mostly "strength," though it is not
>in the normal, external sense of the word. It
>uses an effective comination of external strength
>and internal force, skills, and techniques.


This also seems to be a hallmark of kungfu. Learn how to do it, refine the tools needed to do it and understand when/where to do it.


> It can be done with a single hand. Joint
>manipulation is not necessary with a high-level
>Tiger Claw.


I understand. I always tell our students they can use pain to create an opening, so after blocking find a soft part on the attacking limb and dig your fingers in as you counter.



> The nature of attacking makes you vulnerable
>to counter attack.


True. My whole point (and I'm sure I expressed it badly) was that every attack has a counter and every counter has a counter and so on and so on and so on. Success is a combination of skill, opportunity and good luck.


>My point is that a tackle (what term should we
>use for the shoot?) is an extremely vulnerable
>attack that does not do a good job of minimizing
>the possibilities for counter.


I'd call it a shoot, because tackle has different connotations due to soccer, rugby (I suspect) and American football.

Yes, it is an all or nothing kind of attack. Not much room for error, but great results if it lands. I think its chief strength is that it is relatively simple.


> Tearing off an ear is relatively easy. Anyone
>with a decent grip and a malicious intent can do
>it. Anatomically speaking, the ear is not
>attached very well.


No kidding? Are you grabbing and pulling, grabbing and twisting or grabbing,twisting AND pulling?

I've never heard of such a vulnerability and want to learn more. Especially since I taught the "grab an ear and pull" technique to my son as a way to escape a grab about a month ago


>But no, I have never torn off an ear, and I hope I
>never do. Nor have I done simulations. I have,
>however, grabbed an ear and pulled gently
>when forced to go to the ground. It wasn't a
>joint lock, but you could call it a submission
>technique.

I, too, hope you never find yourself in such a situation where this response would be appropriate. I prefer to think of such a technique as a potential fight ender or something to create an opening for more techniques that may end the confrontation.

Mark

[Antonius]

Does this mean you can use the fingers to attack the tendons or does it mean "wronging" the finger joints also "separate tendons"? I've seen some finger locks that do both, and I'm just curious.

I wasn't clear. Sorry. It means that you can manipulate your opponent's fingers to separate his tendons and cause blindingly-white-hot-ouch-please-stop-now-please pain.

Good for you! I think his books are great and I like his ideas. What's training with him like?

I like him a lot. Dr. Yang is charismatic, relaxed, and funny. He's a bit of a showman with the Chin Na, but with good reason -- he is very skillful at it. He is happy to demonstrate on just about anyone, especially if you're big and strong. I felt his technique many times, and I must say, it was incredibly painful, which is a compliment to his skill.

However, his Chin Na is purely external. It does not use internal force. It is pure scientific manipulation, but to a degree of sophistication much higher than anything I've seen in Aikido or Jujutsu. He's especially good at "separating tendons."

Training with him is, well...painful. That was my biggest complaint. Dr. Yang was very skillful and controlled, and so were all of his disciples. However, the others attending the seminar -- a motley crew of New York martial artists -- were not so controlled. As a violinist, I was very nervous about handing over my fingers to be manipulated in ways that can easily break them.

I prefer to work with this kind of stuff with people I know and trust. There were some questionable attitudes there. One guy tried to attack me (and several others) during a technique that was specifically stated and taught as a counter against a grab. Instead of grabbing me, he attacked me with a punch. So I counter-attacked, but not with what he was expecting. He looked down to find a Phoenix Eye and inch from his throat. After that, he was very polite.

Another guy was doing a beautiful Eagle Claw form during the break. I went to talk to him, and it turns out I know his Sifu(Leung Shum). A conversation ensued, and he immediately wanted to show me the "cool" applications for the form. Now, I'm pretty open with this stuff, but I found it odd when a complete stranger was insisting that I attack him.

Him: "So the punch comes in..."
Me: "What Punch? You want me to punch you?"
Him: "Yes, Horn Punch here...and when it comes in...the..."
Me: "You want me to punch you...with power?"
Him: "Yes, just punch...and then..."

So I punched him. My Horn Punch went right through all of his defenses and, had I not pulled it at the last second, would have smacked him in the temple. I apologized, but I really expected him to block -- effectively, that is.

The point of the story is that I was forced to work with martial artists of all shapes, sizes, and abilities. Unfortunately, this made the seminar a bit uncomfortable for me. If you can go with a friend you trust, it might be better.

Not much room for error, but great results if it lands. I think its chief strength is that it is relatively simple.

Agreed.

No kidding? Are you grabbing and pulling, grabbing and twisting or grabbing,twisting AND pulling?

I hate to share this, but since I raised the subject and I know the technique (from an old instructor with lots of street fighting experience), I'll mention it.

Grab near the center of the ear using the index finger and thumb. Grab with the thumb braced against the middle knuckle (not the tip) of the index finger. In Kungfu terms, it looks similar to a Phoenix Eye Fist. If you yank hard enough in the correct direction, the cartilage will come right off the skull. Even the wrong direction will be painful. You don't need to twist; just yank. On the ground (during sloppy wrestling) you can sometimes get an arm or a leg braced against his skull to get increased leverage for the pull. Very ugly, but not fatal.

OK. Enough of that. Kids, do not try this at home. Seriously. If you pull your own ear too hard, you can rip the cartilage. Please don't.

[juszczec]

Antonius

Originally posted by Antonius
However, his Chin Na is purely external. It does not use internal force.

How is it possible to tell if someone uses internal force?

Training with him is, well...painful. That was my biggest complaint. Dr. Yang was very skillful and controlled, and so were all of his disciples. However, the others attending the seminar -- a motley crew of New York martial artists -- were not so controlled.

Yeah, I know what you mean. Some folks need to be told they're going too hard. 9 out of 10 times this works, but you've always got to be on the lookout for that 10th person.

There were some questionable attitudes there. One guy tried to attack me (and several others) during a technique that was specifically stated and taught as a counter against a grab. Instead of grabbing me, he attacked me with a punch. So I counter-attacked, but not with what he was expecting. He looked down to find a Phoenix Eye and inch from his throat. After that, he was very polite.

Appropriate response. Some folks are a little stupid and you have to show them that you are perfectly ok with hurting them to prevent them from hurting you.

Another guy was doing a beautiful Eagle Claw form during the break. I went to talk to him, and it turns out I know his Sifu(Leung Shum). A conversation ensued, and he immediately wanted to show me the "cool" applications for the form. Now, I'm pretty open with this stuff, but I found it odd when a complete stranger was insisting that I attack him.

Maybe he was just excited that someone noticed him. Being watched is a huge boost to the ego.

As for his mistakes in the application-well stuff happens. Hopefully it encourages him to practice with a partner more.

Also, I find myself in similar situations when I'm acting as the attacker for some of our students. We'll line up, I'll see them get ready for an attack and then...

I'll ask what they want me to do. Then I'll ask them to walk thru the technique slowly. Then I'll offer any suggestions that will keep them from eating a technique or applying some kind of wacky and dangerous counter to me. Its for their safety as well as mine.

The point of the story is that I was forced to work with martial artists of all shapes, sizes, and abilities. Unfortunately, this made the seminar a bit uncomfortable for me. If you can go with a friend you trust, it might be better.

You ain't seen nothin' yet. Just wait till your teaching attracts more and more students. The fit, the unfit, the nasty, the nice, the "I've got something to prove", the "If I hit the teacher then I'm better than he is." You will adapt but I don't envy you in this.

Mark

[Antonius]

How is it possible to tell if someone uses internal force?

Good question. It's not easy. First of all, you need to have the experience of working with someone who has internal force. Only then do you have something to compare it to. Also, as you progress in your Chi Kung practice, you develop sensitivity for energy and internal force. I am not trying to be obtuse, but the only way I can describe it is that you learn to "feel" this kind of force.

Dr. Yang is powerful and has force, but it is not the same kind of internal force that Sifu Wong has. The reason I said his Chin Na is external is because it does not require internal force to apply. On the other hand, some Chin Na, like Tiger Claw, requires tremendous internal force to apply effectively.

Some folks need to be told they're going too hard. 9 out of 10 times this works, but you've always got to be on the lookout for that 10th person.

Tried that.

You ain't seen nothin' yet. Just wait till your teaching attracts more and more students. The fit, the unfit, the nasty, the nice, the "I've got something to prove", the "If I hit the teacher then I'm better than he is." You will adapt but I don't envy you in this.

Been there. Done that. I dealt with those types back in my Karate dojo. It's NYC. We've got 'em all. Challenge matches were actually common in the history of my dojo. Thankfully, they were less and less common by the time I got there.

The majority of Sifu's students (99.9%) are respectful, but I have dealt with some attitudes in the courses. I'm ready to do the same with potential students in the future. But I think you're right. I don't envy me either.

I'll bet there's already a long list of people who want to test me (or at least act very brave from their computers). That's fine. In fact, if I were 5 years younger, I would have already gone to challenge some of them. (I did go, but I just watched, smiled, and left.) Sifu does not encourage that kind of behavior, and I understand why. Negativity breeds negativity. I'm getting too old for that shit.

I'm glad to see that I'm maturing. It turns out that some other MA forums (not Russbo) have already seen this thread and made disparaging comments. My initial reaction to all of this talk is, "So much talk, so much typing, not enough walk." I must admit that the cowboy in me is still drawn to this "throw down" mentality.

While I think there can still be room for this mentality somewhere, I now understand that it can breed a cycle of negativity that can go on and on. I'm a serious Buddhist. So is my teacher. My Chinese name means "Peaceful Path." There are more important things to do with my energy than take or give challenge matches.

If people want to watch a video of students with 10 months experience (at the time of shooting) in their first attempt at free sparring and argue that it's crap, that's fine. If people want to assume Sifu's more senior students, like me (11 years total) and Kai (27 years total), have no understanding of real sparring, that's fine. If they want to laugh at internal force and make comparisons to DBZ, that's fine. If they think stances are useless for real combat, that's fine.

That don't bother me. I walk my talk. Anyone who has actually met me or trained with me knows that.

P.S. Sorry Mark. Another rant. It's not you. Maybe I should switch to decaf.

[Darryl]

He he he

Originally posted by Antonius
I'll bet there's already a long list of people who want to test me

So far I have compiled ...

Scottish Music Through the Ages
Portugese Geometry for Beginners
Basic Engineering Principles in the 1800's

.. and other subjects.

Looking forwards to the Anglo-American exchange!

To make you feel more at home, all of my neighbours are saving up their rubbish so we can pile it up under the window in your room. I've also arranged for screams, sirens and muted thumps every couple of hours so you dont get homesick.

As to the more serious points in your post, someone pointed out to me recently that it is traditional to attack/spar with the instructor of any class you wish to join, to see if they have anything to teach you. Once I had finished laughing, I wished them luck in their practice and suggested they look elsewhere to continue their training. I have no doubts that some schools love that attitude in a student, but not me.

[Antonius]

From another forum:

While I am sure and internal master hits hard, the fighters at NHB events are top fighters and strikers. If it was that easy, all they need to do is stop by an event on the way home, KO all the challengers and go home with an easy BIG paycheck. And make martial arts history showing the world the truth.

No one said it was easy. It takes decades of dedicated practice to reach that level. By the time a master gets there -- after years of a practicing an art that not only encourages, but also requires letting go of ego, embracing peace, and being compassionate -- he's just not interested in things like UFC.

People don't seem to understand or believe this apparent paradox. They repeatedly ask, "Why don't they show us?" In reality, the reverse is true. If asked to demonstrate his power, an internal master, if he even acknowledged your presence at all, would probably ask, "Why don't you show me...that you are deserving?"

People who think that money and fame are legitimate motivators for a genuine Kungfu master have probably never met a genuine Kungfu master. It's like asking a Buddhist Monk who has developed powers through his meditation to go demonstrate on national TV. These people just aren't interested in fame, a "BIG paycheck" or making "history."

Furthermore, fighting in UFC is a great way to get someone hurt -- either you or your opponent, or both. This is a lose lose situation for someone who practices compassion. We are talking about masters who would run from a fight rather than cause unnecessary damage to someone. Why would the same masters willingly seek out a fight?

Then another post by the same member a little later:

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/mcray/_wsn/fightonecomplete.WMV

My turn to comment on a video. Is this their idea of "top fighters and strikers"? I'm assuming that the so-called Karate guy is the one in white pants. This is precisely what I was talking about earlier.

I don't know who this guy is, but IMNSHO, he's terrible. I am amazed that anyone would think that he is a good representation of a stand-up fighter. He didn't lose to grappling. He lost to striking, after which, his opponent went in for an easy throw.

Honestly, I don't know his reasons for posting that link. I'm just assuming it was to show his idea of "good" sparring. I could be wrong.

[Antonius]

This thread has been split. The new thread, "Respect for the Master" is located here: http://www.wahnam.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=570

Discussions on "Grappling and Kungfu" should continue here.

[Antonius]

This was part relevant to the current thread:

Originally posted by J.J.Binks
Secondly, I watched that video. Both fighters are either great or terrible, depending upon your perspective. Sure the karate guy would get beaten badly by a kung fu master or Mike Tyson, but in turn he would easily defeat 90% of American martial artists and instructors, many of whom fancy themselves as great fighters and avoid fighting for fear of having this fantasy shattered. At least this guy tried, and he showed some technique before he got hit. Ha- you should see most instructors in a similar situation. Also, I don't consider myself terrible but there are clips of me looking very bad for a few seconds, so maybe he just had a bad day.
I haven't trained with the same people you have but it sounds like they must be a lot better than anyone I have worked with. Another difference between you and I is you seem to place a heavy emphasis on fighting skill and elegance, whereas I am more impressed with heart and toughness. Crude, maybe, but at least I won't end up sweeping floors for somebody and never having anything to show for it. I realize you don't do this either, but you ar elucky enough to know a real master who is generous in his teaching. For the rest of us, it's a choice between kickboxing or slavery.

[Antonius]

Sure the karate guy would get beaten badly by a kung fu master or Mike Tyson, but in turn he would easily defeat 90% of American martial artists and instructors...

Perspective is important. I don’t know how long this fighter (in white) has been training. Maybe he’s a beginner. Regardless, he’s really not up to my standards for a top fighter.

I don't know what 90% of American martial artists are doing, but there are still plenty of good fighters out there, or at least here in New York. In my opinion, this guy would get beaten by a lot of people, including a Kungfu master, Mike Tyson, any self-respecting street fighter, and a brown belt from my old Karate school.

At least this guy tried, and he showed some technique before he got hit.

I didn't see much technique. He threw a few punches without proper intent and with poor targeting, spun around and offered his back to his opponent early in the fight, showed no root (even boxers have root), threw an ill-advised kick against someone who was obviously a grappler, and then cowered in a corner as soon as he got hit. He didn't even break-fall when he hit the mat. I apologize if this seems harsh. I’m just being honest about what I saw.

I don't consider myself terrible but there are clips of me looking very bad for a few seconds, so maybe he just had a bad day.

Then why post this clip?

Another difference between you and I is you seem to place a heavy emphasis on fighting skill and elegance, whereas I am more impressed with heart and toughness.

Are you a boxing fan? Who is your favorite boxer?

[Quatro Bajina]

Funny Video Clips

Antonius:

Thanks for providing that hilarious link.

I was rolling on the floor laughing when I saw that clip. I have a bad day since yesterday and you actually brighten it. Thanks so much. I feel better now

JJ:

I agree with Antonius. That clip is a joke. The two of us are not the only one who agree with it. There are 70 more. Please go to the link below:

MCDojo

I do agree with you that at least he get to the ring. (Got some guts), but that's about it. This guy actually train in both Ninjitsu and Karate. He makes the styles look bad, IMO.

[juszczec]

Guys

JJ wrote:

"but in turn he would easily defeat 90% of American martial artists and instructors, many of whom fancy themselves as great fighters and avoid fighting for fear of having this fantasy shattered"

I hate that the MA world is like this. But it is.
That's why I advocate teachers (who are still physically capable) spar with their students.
And yes, I do.

"skill" vs "heart and toughness"

You can teach skill; heart and toughness you have to bring out of yourself. Personally, I'd rather have heart and toughness next to me when things go bad.

"elegance"

Elegance is what you get in a controlled situation or when your skills are so much greater than your opponent's that its akin to an adult taking candy from a baby.

Quatro:

"I was rolling on the floor laughing when I saw that clip."

Getting some laughs at someone else's misfortune? Isn't that nice.

Now, don't get me wrong - I've watched more than my fair share of these things. All they are useful for is analyzing what each person did.

So, after I tell y'all a story, I'll do that.

One day I was play fighting with my 4 year old son. For weeks he'd been charging in and swinging wide circular punches at my head. I'd hold my arms up and catch his punches and he'd laugh at how he was beating up the old man.
Then one day he charges in, I put up my hands, he stops short and front kicks me in the groin.

If that was videotaped, could we make any assumptions about my training, my teacher or the style I do?

You make the call.

As far as I'm concerned, it shows I need to get more practice fighting 4 year olds

Seriously though, it showed I need to do a better job watching.

When watching this clip, just remember "There but for good teaching, luck and the grace of God go I."

On to the analysis.

The striker was too timid, didn't follow up his techniques, didn't establish himself as a threat, kicked too high and turned his back twice.

He did study his opponent which, in this kind of situation, is common sense.

He ate 2 leg kicks (which didn't seem to do much damage), got punched in the face and then things went really bad for him.

The grappler made fewer mistakes, but wasn't perfect. He studied his opponent as well. The leg kicks did no damage. He missed an opening when the striker turned his back the first time.

He might have been looking for a spinning technique. I've caught people in the dojo like this before. But spinning against an opponent who is NOT beaten to the point they cannot mount a defense is foolish.

The grappler made an opening with his face punch, threw the stiker to the ground and finished the match. Yes, it was a competitive event, these guys were testing themselves against each other.

Why did the grappler succeed? IMO, the striker did not know what to do when he ate the punch - despite the fact it wasn't a terribly injurious blow.

That's why I advocate putting on protective gear and (with some trusted people) sparring a littlle harder than most. I don't mean full contact or no contact, I mean something in between.

Then the grappler got behind the striker, who I'll bet was thinking "Why can't I see and where did he go?"

Then the grappler quickly got the upper hand because he did stuff the striker was unfamiliar with. The striker succumbed to the natural tendency to try and figure out what's going on before reacting to it. Unfortunately for him, the grappler quickly put him in lots of situations he couldn't figure out. By the time the striker had realized what the 1st unfamiliar situation was, he was defeated.

That's why I advocate cross training. The more unfamiliar situations you are exposed to, the more comfortable you become when facing something unfamiliar.

Mark

[J.J.Binks]

Fight Clip

Mark,
I agree with everything you said. The guy looked bad at times, but most people are even worse. Kudos to you for sparring with your students, I respect that 100%. But as far as Quatro laughing at the clip, I have to admit I have laughed at clips of people getting hurt before too. Afterwards I feel really bad about it, but I can't help it.
Quatro,
I am not disagreeing that he did not do very good. I am just saying that a lot of martial artists would have done a lot worse.
Anthony,
Despite what I said about technique vs. toughness, it is ironic that two of my favorite boxers are Lennox Lewis and Roy Jones Jr. because of their superior technique.
My other favorite boxers would include Hassim Rahman because he is a fellow Marylander and Mike Tyson because I am an 80's baby.

[juszczec]

Re: Fight Clip

Originally posted by J.J.Binks
I agree with everything you said. The guy looked bad at times, but most people are even worse. Kudos to you for sparring with your students, I respect that 100%.

Thank you. But, I don't think I'm doing anything special. I feel this is what I have to do, for a lot of reasons.

Anyone want to know what they are?

But as far as Quatro laughing at the clip, I have to admit I have laughed at clips of people getting hurt before too. Afterwards I feel really bad about it, but I can't help it.

Yeah, I know. I do it too. My intent wasn't to pick on Quatro. I wanted to point out that we were starting to laugh at some guy's inadequacies and these types of video clips have limited meaning.


Mark

[Quatro Bajina]

juszczec:

Getting some laughs at someone else's misfortune? Isn't that nice.

Did you know what happen before the fight ? Follow the link that I provided and you will know why I laugh. The posters there give good reason why I laugh. The admin gave a short story first. If you need clarification, let me know. I will be more than willing to explain.

If that was videotaped, could we make any assumptions about my training, my teacher or the style I do?

Yes, you are a teacher who loves your son very much. How do I know? You train with him and he is very young (4 years). If I have a kid, I would do the same thing but I would video tape it so we can laugh at it afterwards. We can have father and son quality time Now you make me want to have a kid

[juszczec]

Originally posted by Quatro Bajina
juszczec:



Did you know what happen before the fight ? Follow the link that I provided and you will know why I laugh. The posters there give good reason why I laugh. The admin gave a short story first. If you need clarification, let me know. I will be more than willing to explain.

Whoops. My bad. I'll go read the background material. Sorry for ranting without all the facts.

Yes, you are a teacher who loves your son very much. How do I know? You train with him and he is very young (4 years).

Wow.

I'm touched.

That is the nicest thing I've ever had said about me.

Thank you

Mark