Grappling and Kungfu

[bungle]

Please don't get the impression that i'm obssessed with this site but once again the author makes some good points, worth reading:

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/grappling.html

Thanks

[Quatro Bajina]

J.J.Binks:

I am with Antonius on this one. Most of the UFC fighters don't even know how to punch properly. This is the reason why they use gloves right now. They broke their wrist when they punch.

IMO, the only good striker is Chuck Lidell who is the best UFC and PrideFC standup guy.


bungle:
That's an good site you provided. I am putting it in my favorites.

[KungFuJoe]

This is turning into a great discussion!

Thanks for the advice Antonius, I can practice some low level chi kung that another teacher shared with me. It should be sufficient for Taming the Tiger.

I also had a teacher once who recommended practicing techniques while gripping metal rings. Have you ever heard of this? It may be part of the dragon claw training program, which I unfortunately don't know even though I am basically a dragon stylist.

Pro boxing and kickboxing champions are lucky if they can land ONE big strike before it goes to the ground, let alone knock the guy out.

True, but I honestly don't know of many kung-fu exponents that would strike with a closed fist. I certainly wouldn't

Furthermore, when using fingers as a striking tool, I actually think that there is a minimal possibility of the fight winding up on the ground. If you are boxing or kickboxing, It'll probably wind up on the ground nine times out of ten (or that's just my experience). Additionally, in this type of fighting I think that a lot of bulk and muscle would actually hinder you.

I agree that many pros develop forms of iron skills (or just plain old immunity to pain due to nerve damage would probably be more accurate, and something I would really rather not cultivate as a skill) and massive amounts of muscle, but they are at a different level than the kung-fu exponent like myself who trains 40 minutes to an hour a day. The standards are different. Some of those guys are pretty big. I could not defeat such professional fighters, but then I am unlikely to ever need to.

Regarding kung-fu stylists neglecting ground fighting, has anyone ever seen the famous Butterly Palm set? It supposedly has a vast array of groundfighting techniques.

Oh and Antonius, I suppose you make me the second guy in the world to have never seen the UFC!

I just figured the best guys would come forward and fight, whereas I guess in actuality the best guys stay low while the worst guys come forward to test their skills

It is interesting that people in the kung-fu community generally have laid low. But I suppose that kung-fu begins and ends as a spiritual journey. Those of us on that journey may love training great arts, even though we may not have ever seen UFC or know what K-1 is. I think we need kung-fu masters the same way we need great violinists, writers and painters. They make an immense gift to the world and help us to develop our spirit. Why focus on ring sports?

[Antonius]

I just figured the best guys would come forward and fight whereas I guess in actuality the best guys stay low while the worst guys come forward to test their skills

It's an interesting paradox. The people who are interested in UFC are usually those who have something to prove. The people who aren't interested UFC are those who have nothing to prove, to themselves, or to the world.

In my experience, it is the man who has nothing to prove who is more powerful. He is further along the path. He has already been through youthful exuberance and the need to test himself. He has confidence in himself and his abilities. He is gentle and compassionate. He would run from a fight rather than hurt an opponent. He has nothing to prove to anyone.

A master of Iron Palm knows that his palm can kill. Wondering whether his Iron Palm can kill is the same as wondering whether a knife can kill. The hand of an Iron Palm master can be deadlier than a knife.

As for labeling them a "disgrace", I think that is a rather harsh generalization for athletes who are willing to put it all on the line for millions to see by accepting this challenge, regardless of the outcome.

I stopped watching these fights, so I don't know what is happening recently. Your description sounds like there is some skill these days. Maybe so, but what I saw was not skillful.

In the first 5 or 6 UFCs, I saw black belts who could not throw a proper kick, let alone a powerful kick with proper timing. I saw John Wayne punches. I saw so-called Kungfu fighters who not only didn't use Kungfu, but also used their borrowed arts so poorly that they have given Kungfu a bad reputation. I would call this a disgrace.

I think we need kung-fu masters the same way we need great violinists, writers and painters.

I like this sentence a lot, but maybe that's just because I'm also a writer and a violinist.

[J.J.Binks]

Sports

Ok, I thought you were referring to more recent UFCs. I have respect for anyone who has ever fought in the UFC, but it is true that the first strikers were not as good as the newer ones, for the reason I explained above (Gracies running the show). Fighting in tournaments isn't about proving anything to anyone else, at least it isn't for me. It's about proving to yourself that you can fight, something many martial artists never do. We're not gauranteed any amount of time on this here earth and I want to make sure I have done something exciting. It's actually a lot more spiritual than most people would believe. It is an experience that stays with you your whole life, and you are happy that you did something other than watching TV or playing computer all the time. Also, it gives you a natural high, before, during and afterwards. And I haven't even begun to delve into the benefits you receive as an athlete/martial artist because they are indescribable.
If you think tournaments are all about ego, consider this, many people including myself, keep coming back after losing badly, and sometimes we fight people where we are serious underdogs. In some of my fights, I stepped in as an alternate in the main event against national champions. I lost, sometimes badly, but each time I did my best. While some fighters having something to prove, I do not. I know I am not that tough, so there's nothing to prove.
KungFuJoe asked why focus on sports? Joe they are not for everyone. Some of us just happen to find them entertaining. I find competing in and watching them very enjoyable and educational. Maybe I learn better by fighting in tournaments and another guy learns better by fighting in the gym. Whatever it is that you like most about the martial arts, that's cool too, for me it is the competition.

[Antonius]

J.J.

You are one of the most level-headed ring fighters I have ever had the pleasure of (virtually) meeting.

Now, don't get me wrong. I understand the urge, and the thrill. In fact, I have long had the idea of entering the Olympics in order to win a gold medal in Tae Kwon Do (using Shaolin Kungfu, of course). This is not a pipe dream. I honestly believe I could win (or at least medal) if I set my mind to it.

The question is, why do it? The only answer I can come up with is -- just for kicks.

[Antonius]

Boy, I need someone to moderate me when I get off topic. Back to Grappling!

I also had a teacher once who recommended practicing techniques while gripping metal rings. Have you ever heard of this?

What kind of metal rings? Gripping how?

True, but I honestly don't know of many kung-fu exponents that would strike with a closed fist.

I would! I love the fist, despite the fact that it is inferior to the palm, which is in turn inferior to the fingers. When backed with internal force, a fist can still pack quite a punch (pun obviously intended). The fist need not be crude, like in some martial arts. Patterns like "Lift Lid Offer Wine," "Lohan Hitting a Gong," and "Lohan Strikes Drum" are sophisticated and versatile. In fact, one of these patterns is an excellent counter to a shoot throw, but I won't tell you which one.

Furthermore, when using fingers as a striking tool, I actually think that there is a minimal possibility of the fight winding up on the ground.

I don't follow you here. Can you elaborate?

but they are at a different level than the kung-fu exponent like myself who trains 40 minutes to an hour a day. The standards are different.

This is an excellent point. Things change significantly when you train professionally. I practice 2-3 hours a day. I'm sure these guys train 2-3 times as much as I do. But can they fix a computer network outage!? I don't think so!

[KungFuJoe]

Mr. Binks, it is clear that you are an outstanding martial artist. My personal training does not really focus on fighting, but I did not mean to ensue that enjoying and participating in good sport is wrong. Very few people find great arts that they can train for hourse, work hard, grow through and enjoy, and we are all part of those lucky few, we happy few, we band of brothers. In a society where the average person watches 6 hours of TV on average every day, I hope that martial sports attract more people to pursue these great arts. Maybe one day we will all be privileged to have fun and work out together.

I am also intrigued Antonius by the fact that you play violin... so do I. Or rather I recently converted from cello (which I played for ten years or so) to violin and bought a lovely old German instrument. We can start a thread on recommending fingerings and bowings for our favourite peices. You wouldn't happen to be an engineer would you?

I have generally prefered the palm to the closed fist in combat. I know the techniques which you are talking about (I have Lohan strikes Drum) in one of my sets, but I generally practice techniques designed to achieve the same ends with palms (that's dragon style for you ). This is merely personal preference. In real combat where my life was in danger, however, I would respond with finger strikes to vital points. This is in my opinion somewhat more efficient than fists and palms (or at least for me it has worked better). When practicing this in sparring (which you can only do if your opponent has good control), we never wind up on the ground because someone always gets the neck, eyes, groin or some kind of vital point before we have the chance. Even in the one situation where we have, claws to the throat ruled supreme.

Also to train dragon claw, I started by squeezing my hand into very tight fists for a few weeks, then used rings about 5' in diameter. I would grip the perimeter and practice the roaring tiger set (a famous norther long-fist set). This builds some force. I also practice individual techniques from the set while gripping the rings. The last stage was doing pushups on the fingers. I have not really trained this art recently, but I am going to start to emphasize it more because I see the value.

In fact, it might interest you to see some Northern kung-fu. Have you ever watched it? It is common to strike with kicks and punches simultaneously and double kicking is prominent. You may strike my first kick with Lohan beats drum, but really it was only a fake for a stomp on your lead leg. This is actually the single biggest problem that I am facing in Southern Kung-Fu training from Master Wong's books... it feels like my lead leg is just too vulnerable .

I would like to mention Mr. Binks that I have immense respect for modern scientific fighting methods, although I personally have opted for traditional kung-fu. I think that a great deal can be learned from the Tao of Jeet Kune Do (my second favourite MA book after The Art of Shaolin Kung-Fu) and by analyzing competition fighting.

Happy Easter!

[Antonius]

This is actually the single biggest problem that I am facing in Southern Kung-Fu training from Master Wong's books... it feels like my lead leg is just too vulnerable.

Vulnerable to what?

I am also intrigued Antonius by the fact that you play violin...

Yep. I was raised a classical violinist. I spent some time at Juilliard and almost went pro. Instead, I decided to become a Scholar Warrior.

We can start a thread on recommending fingerings and bowings for our favourite peices.

LOL. Sounds good.

You wouldn't happen to be an engineer would you?

Sort of. I'm a computer geek, which includes being a network engineer.

we never wind up on the ground because someone always gets the neck, eyes, groin or some kind of vital point before we have the chance

Ah. Now I understand you. It sounds like you have a good sparring partner.

Honestly, my Snake to the eye is extremely accurate. I rarely use it because it is so dangerous. What I find most interesting is that that, even with skillful partners, they often don't notice the hit.

Having had 2 scratched corneas (from my Karate days), I know how devastating these hits can be. One shot to the eye (even if it is closed) and both eyes immediately shut due to a "sympathetic reaction." It is a fight-ending technique, but if skilled Kungfu fighters (who are familiar with Snakes and eye strikes) do not notice these hits in sparring, I can't really expect grapplers to notice them either.

[juszczec]

Originally posted by Antonius
I already came up with a solution! Tiger Claw. Problem solved. Just because you guys don't understand doesn't mean we didn't come up with a solution.

Just so I'm on the same page as you, can you please describe your Tiger Claw? Also, targets and methods of training.

Do you think that grappling is a new invention?

Yes. Helio Gracie invented it and his sons refined it. The people who practiced wrestling in India, China, Japan, England, America, Greece and other places throughout history were obviously aliens from other planets.

Did you really just ask me this question?

How dumb do I make myself out to be?

They did, in fact, take it into account and came up with an elegant solution: Chin Na. The Tiger Claw involves Chin Na. Taijiquan is rich with Chin Na techniques.

We need some more definitions. AFAIK from reading Yang Jwing Ming, Chin Na is a set of principles underlying many forms of kungfu. These principles include striking, attacking the joints, throwing, takedowns and choking (maybe, I don't recall for certain).

Tiger Claw is a technique. Its used for grabbing, twisting, tearing, crushing and controlling.

Yes I'm familiar with the fact that tai chi contains Chin Na principles. In fact, I'll go you one better. I think most MA descended from Chinese sources contain them as well and people doing karate etc would do well to at least examine Chin Na.

At the very least, it was eye opening for me.

Or he could channel force to his fingers and grip (similar to a Tiger Claw) with enough intensity to crush bones.

Which bones? Is there any bending or twisting involved or are we talking about grabbing, squeezing and shattering bones thru pure strength alone?

The fact is that a grappler is extremely vulnerable to counter attacks from the moment he begins his shoot until he fully completes his mount. This can take a long time, at least 5-6 seconds. In a fight to the death, 1 second is an eternity. During this time, an internal master has many options, all of which are potentially lethal to his opponent.

Any fighter is vulnerable from the moment they get close enough to be reachable. Whether its with a punch, kick, grab or thrown rock - no one is completely safe.

I also think it might be a good idea to leave out any BJJ specific terms. I don't want to muddy the water and get people thinking in terms of what Royce and company do.

I would consider Sifu a "striker" but he can literally crush my elbow into pulp with his Tiger Claw.

Again, are we talking grabbing, squeezing and breaking or is there some other manipulation involved.

Mark

[juszczec]

Originally posted by Antonius
I don't train it seriously...yet. However, I can still rip off ears,

Please elaborate. How did you train to achieve this and how did you measure it? Have you torn off an ear when attacked or have you gripped and torn something seemingly stronger than an ear (heavy bag, phone book, tree bark etc).

Mark

[juszczec]

Re: Takedown/ground defense

Originally posted by J.J.Binks

Mark,
you should check out the UFC sometime, I think you'd dig it.

I've seen some of the early ones, where there was a Gracie and many badly prepared strikers who were not his caliber of athlete. I was more interested in seeing what folks with a non MA/different MA background than mine would do.

If someone wants to put themselves at risk, then I'm going to do everything I can to learn from it.

From what I've gathered recently, competitors have identified whats necessary to succeed at UFC type competitions and are training with those things in mind. Its moved away from the original "What would happen if we put a wrestler and a boxer in the octagon at the same time?"

This is the nature of any competitive sport. You identify what you have to do to be successful and you do it. I suspect, and please tell me if I'm wrong, that the fighters now look similar and employ common strategies and tactics.

Mark

[Antonius]

Mark, you seem a bit grumpy on this lovely, Monday morning. Can I offer you a strong cup of coffee?

Just so I'm on the same page as you, can you please describe your Tiger Claw? Also, targets and methods of training.

My Tiger Claw is still a tiger cub and should not be taken as an example. I’ll talk about the method further down.

Targets depend a lot on the force and skill of your Tiger Claw. If you have a powerful Tiger Claw, like Sifu Wong, then you can grip almost anything and cause severe pain. Obviously, there are certain targets that would be more advantageous, like certain vital points in the arm. Joints like the wrist, ankle, and elbow are good targets for “wronging joints.” The fingers are good for “separating tendons.”

Yes. Helio Gracie invented it and his sons refined it. The people who practiced wrestling in India, China, Japan, England, America, Greece and other places throughout history were obviously aliens from other planets.
Did you really just ask me this question?

LOL. Sorry. It was more of a rhetorical rant. It wasn't directed at you, but rather at those people who might take your above statement seriously.

AFAIK from reading Yang Jwing Ming, Chin Na is a set of principles underlying many forms of kungfu

I've learned Chin Na from Dr. Yang. IMHO, his Chin Na is good. I've also read his books. Dr. Yang categorizes Chin Na exactly as I do -- as one of the 4 categories of attack/defense. In fact, he quoted the phrase "Da, Ti, Die, Na" in the seminar.

Tiger Claw is a technique. Its used for grabbing, twisting, tearing, crushing and controlling.

Tiger Claw is an Art, not just a technique. The Art of Tiger Claw includes techniques, skills, tactics, strategies, and force training methods.

The methods for training Tiger Claw force are extensive. Coincidentally, some of these methods will be discussed in an article soon to be released by Sifu on his website. Briefly, some of the methods are:[list=1][*]One Finger Chan (trains internal force in a variety of hand forms, including Tiger Claw)[*]Fierce Tiger Cleanses Claws (a high-level method for training the internal force of the Tiger Claw)[*]Jabbing Beans (trains external force in the fingers and palms)[*]Taming the Tiger (pushups on finger tips)[*]Gripping Jars (trains external and internal gripping force for Tiger Claw)[/list=1]

Which bones? Is there any bending or twisting involved or are we talking about grabbing, squeezing and shattering bones thru pure strength alone?

OK. Maybe "pulp" was an exaggeration. However, a master with a powerful Tiger Claw (like Sifu) can certainly dislocate (wronging joints) and/or break bones in the hands, wrist, elbow, ankle, and collar bone area with their gripping force.

And yes, it is mostly "strength," though it is not in the normal, external sense of the word. It uses an effective comination of external strength and internal force, skills, and techniques. It can be done with a single hand. Joint manipulation is not necessary with a high-level Tiger Claw.

Any fighter is vulnerable from the moment they get close enough to be reachable.

The nature of attacking makes you vulnerable to counter attack. As soon as you stick out an arm, you have left your more guarded fighting stance and are more exposed. However, there are ways to minimize this.

For example, when punching with one hand, you don't keep the other hand at the waist, but rather keep it "alive" and ready for possible counters. Similarly, when kicking, you don't let your arms swing wildly from your body, but rather keep them guarding spots that have been exposed by your kick, like the groin and the face.

My point is that a tackle (what term should we use for the shoot?) is an extremely vulnerable attack that does not do a good job of minimizing the possibilities for counter.

Have you torn off an ear when attacked or have you gripped and torn something seemingly stronger than an ear (heavy bag, phone book, tree bark etc).

Tearing off an ear is relatively easy. Anyone with a decent grip and a malicious intent can do it. Anatomically speaking, the ear is not attached very well.

But no, I have never torn off an ear, and I hope I never do. Nor have I done simulations. I have, however, grabbed an ear and pulled gently when forced to go to the ground. It wasn't a joint lock, but you could call it a submission technique.

[juszczec]

Originally posted by Antonius
[B]Mark, you seem a bit grumpy on this lovely, Monday morning. Can I offer you a strong cup of coffee?

I've already had 2

Its allergy season in beautiful NE Ohio and my eyes burn like crazy.

However, I'm not trying to be nasty. I'm very sorry if I came across like this.

I am trying to keep it short since I'm squeezing in responses as I'm entertaining my son. He's off school today.

I'll wait till my wife gets off work and we get home after her v-ball game before I post anymore responses. She'll be taking care of Max and I'll be able to devote my full attention to writing.

Again, sorry for any misunderstanding.

Mark

[Antonius]

However, I'm not trying to be nasty. I'm very sorry if I came across like this.

Nah. No apologies necessary. I was the one who asked a stupid question in the first place.

Obviously, I needed more coffee.