Sparring - how effective is it?

[Yevin Orion]

Hi all,

I am to the understanding that Sparring is an effective way to learn how forms can be used in combat. However, I stumbled across a video from a Fujian White Crane school and it somewhat worried me. There seemed to be no form, no technique at all. It looked more like boxing to me.

So is this what sparring is actually like? Or do some institutions (like Shaolin Wahnam) do it differently?

[subclock]

I will quote Sifu Wong from this Website to help answer your question .

" Most martial art students today make a big mistake in their combat training. They think mistakenly that practicing free sparring is the way, often the only way, to combat efficiency. To a large extent this came about because many people were disillusioned with kungfu, as much of (so-called) kungfu practiced today is merely peforming external forms with little or no combat training.

In genuine traditional kungfu, free sparing is never used to train combat efficiency; it is used to test combat efficiency, to confirm that the students can really fight. In other words, it is not a training tool -- it is a testing tool. You engage in free sparing only after you know how to fight, not as a means to train you to fight.

Practicing combat sequences is an essential link between form training and free sparring. In form training you develop the techniques as well as the skills that you will need for fighting. In combat sequences you methodically apply these techniques and skills in simulated combat. In free sparring you confirm that you can fight efficiently.

There are many stages and sub-stages in combat sequence training. "Black Tiger Steals Heart" is the first of a long series of combat sequences we use in our school, Shaolin Wahnam, to go through these stages and sub-stages systematically. "

If a school does not use the traditional Kung Fu forms that they practise in their forms for self-defense . Chances are they don't know how to use them for self defense , and often revert to borrowing techniques from other martial arts like TKD and Kick-Boxing .

Sifu Wong has explained in depth , on this website and in his books , the procedure of training combat sequences ,and eventually ( and systematically ) releasing all control until you are free sparring . You will find a wealth of information about this topic and many more if you go through Sifu Wong's extensive Question-Answer section as well as relevant combat articles on this site .

Hope that helps,
Kevin

[juszczec]

Re: Sparring - how effective is it?

Hi folks

Originally posted by Yevin Orion I am to the understanding that Sparring is an effective way to learn how forms can be used in combat.

IMHO, not really.

Forms practice makes you repeat motions you can use while you fight. The emphasis is on correct form - placing the body exactly where it needs to be. Theoretically, each time you do the form you do the movements in exactly the same way since there is not opponent causing you to adjust.

Sparring at best gives you a way to practice the movements from the form and adjust them to your opponent. Sparring forces you to apply your techniques under pressure.

Very often the graceful, elegant motions from a form look not so graceful and elegant when you are trying to keep someone from punching you in the head.

Sparring at worst becomes a game of who can "win" without regard to using any technique. Although this kind of training has its use, its counterproductive to concentrate on it if we are trying to apply our style's principles on the fly.

Mark

[Yevin Orion]

I'm sorry, it seems I didn't clarify my meaning. I meant, it is an effective way of applying your forms to actual combat and testing their effectiveness.

But your points are quite valid and well received!

[Antonius]

Are we talking about free sparring, or other types of sparring? The difference is significant. It's not just a mater of semantics.

The free sparring in that video is terrible, but unfortunately, typical. It's certainly not Kungfu. How can I be sure? Forget form. Just look at their stances. All of them are "floating" their chi and lack any kind of root. Without root, there can be no Kungfu.

The video basically shows bad kickboxing with a little bit of bad grappling. The standard is very, very low. Good Kickboxers also lack that Kungfu rooting and tend to float their chi, but they can nevertheless be highly effective. The same goes for grapplers (not just groundfighters).

[Yevin Orion]

I actually meant Free Sparring, as that is what that video shows.

I agree with you totally. I, myself, have no knowledge of Kungfu other than what I have read in the literature on this website, yet I find the quality of the 'sparring' in that video horrible. It is as Sifu says, "it is not uncommon to find kungfu exponents with more than 10 years experience fight wildly like children."

Even to my untrained eye it looks totally random as if all the training they must get is completey forgotten or disregarded.

Is there a page on this site that explains Shaolin Wahnam's methodology of sparring and free-sparring?

[Antonius]

http://www.wahnam.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=522

[Yevin Orion]

Many thanks for all your help!

[Dark Knight]

First lets look at what we are calling free sparring. What kind of rules are you looking at. Slow to medium speed movements and working techniques? fast and allowing the people to make light contact, front o the body above the belt? Full contact? NHB? What kind of pads, are you just fighting for the experience or doing points?

I like to put on head gear, gloves, shin guards and cups and allow heavy contact, grabs, trapping, throws, take downs and grappling. I like to do all areas. We are also doing elbows and knees.

I may do other variations with less gear if I’m working a specific type of training, but then that’s not free sparring. It is however another aspect of training.

Forms, techniques, bag work, drills, sparring are all a circle around fighting. Each has its own part to add.

What sparring teaches you

Lets say that you are doing light contact, closed hand above the waist point style sparring. Its is not street fighting and it lacks some of the aspects of it, but it still has value. First it is teaching you how to move around and be able to strike and avoid at the same time. It teaches you timing for closing the distance and striking, how to find openings and take advantage of them.
This should not be your mainstay of training but it has value along with drills, techniques, forms…

Contact with grabs throws and ground work

Now you are looking at more alive training. Your partner is giving resistance to when you trap his strike, you get a feel for what happens when you do a technique wrong (you get hit) You understand how to manipulate a moving body, when you try for a take down and h resist, you learn how to overcome him. You learn how to time a trap and make it work. And those techniques that you thought would fake him out, may not, you find that out the hard way.

This is where you start learning to apply what you have learned. Sure there will be some techniques you cannot do, such as eye strike or biting, but those are not the mainstay of your style. Otherwise why learn anything else.
This is where your timing, flowing and techniques will be more transferable to the street.

Street fighting/training

Sport is when two people have decided to fight each other. If we meet in an alley and fight with no rule it is still a sport because we have made the decision to fight, one fighter against another, baseball bats or knives or fist, its still a sport.
A street fight, an attack that we all train for, is when you are walking away and he hits you from behind.

I lived in Reno NV for many years. About two years ago two guys were walking out of a church. A 15 year old and a 14 year old with one baseball bat attacked them. One guy went down is now handicapped for life, the other broke an arm and ran for help. Two teens took down two adults with one bat. That’s a street fight, that’s what self defense is for.

Sparring for the street

Now in your training try this.
Put on headgear, open gloves, shin guards, get into your car. As you get out your car the attacker attacks. Or walk down an area and have someone step out from behind something, now the sparring starts when they made the first attack. In the street you don’t know if an attack is going to start until someone strikes.
Don’t have your opponent “kind of” attack; make it as realistic as possible. He steps out, grabs you solid and hits you hard and fast. Now you have to react before your hit, or after. Practice scenario fighting and you will become a better street fighter. (Train as you Fight)

Try giving your opponent a stick (or a padded one if you want to lower the pain) and fight heavy contact, this will let you see how well the club techniques work. There are many training knives that leave a mark when you spar against them.

Sparring is like any part of your training. You get out of it what you put in. Look at forms, in some styles they are effective fighting techniques, in others they have been reduced to something required to make rank and money.

[saku39]

It depends

I think sparring is great.

But it is really about what you want to attain.

People do martial arts for many reasons.

1. Reach a higher mental state
2. For better health
3. For Self Defense
4. To fight / compete
5. To do tricks (All the kiddies that like gymnastic type moves in Wushu and tournament karate forms. My brother loves this stuff, its what he lives for.)

But, if you want to learn either self defense or want to fight / compete, then yes, sparring is NECESSARY. Wether you call it live wrestling (wrestling,) rolling(BJJ,) randori (aikido, judo,) or whatever, sparring is an intregal part to learning how to use what works best for you. It gives you experience in doing your art and experience is a great thing to have.

Nothing trips me out more than when I have rolled with a guy better at BJJ than I am and the guy takes me to school without exerting any effort. THe amount of mat time that guy had was way more than me. What was the result? The type of relaxation and calmness (centered oneness) is paramount in any type of sparring. Without it, you can't do you best. Being tense doesn't help anything.

I saw a boxing match awhile back: Oscar De La Hoya vs Arturo Gatti. I watched as Gatti threw punch after punch and missed. What did Oscar do for defense? Practically nothing. He moved his head side to side when punches came. He had maybe an 1 and a half of clearance with each miss. And he didn't care, he wasn't scared of these attacks, in some cases he would move into punches. Gatti couldn't shake him. Oscar was completely relaxed and calm quietly taking in Gatti's attacks, negating them, and them punching back. Gatti hits people VERY HARD, and yet Oscar was ok with these punches coming within two inches to his face. Completely centered and calm.

Oscar couldn't have done this if he hadn't gotten hours of ringtime. Sparring against training partners, competing in amatuer competitions, and fighting many rounds as a pro.

Sparring adds experience and helps you refine whatever techniques you have.

"Sparring is like any part of your training. You get out of it what you put in."

Very true.

[juszczec]

Re: Sparring - how effective is it?

Originally posted by Yevin Orion I stumbled across a video from a Fujian White Crane school and it somewhat worried me.

I didn't realize there was a video when I responded. I know you put a link in, but it didn't register.

I looked at the video. Can't comment on the quality of the kung fu.

Personally I think much of the punching was lousy.

But there was some good stuff in there! The kicking was ok and showed high kicks to be relatively ineffective.

Closing to takedown was good.

Some of the actual takedowns were pretty good.

It would have been nice if they had continued fighting on the ground until one person had attained a clearly superior position.

I'll watch it over the next few days and post more comments if anyone is interested.

Mark

[Antonius]

Sorry, but I saw nothing good in there. What I saw was some terrible boxing, kicks with neither power or root, sloppy takedowns, weak stances, and a complete lack of defensive skills.

My standard is high, but this kind of sparring does not even come close.

[Dan]

These guys have a branch teaching down the road from me and I know Ronan went to watch once. This video confirms my worst suspicions about them – they cannot apply their Kungfu for combat and as a result fight like children. I agree with Anthony; my standards are high but that was really bad.

[saku39]

Wow.

I didn't watch the video when I first posted. I just got done watching it. Here's my opinion:

Some of those people were really bad. Like, "Damn, what are you doing? Please stop now because it hurts my eyes," bad. As the video progressed the matches got better, but for the most part, it was bad.

Telegraphed kicks and punches, no defense at all, bad movement, but surprisingly, some decent throws and takedowns. There were people that went for spinning sweeps on the ground (I don't know the Kung Fu) term for them. Those were very bad. There was some large fellow at the beginning that stood and threw straight punches with no defense. . .

In the latter part of the video, some of the people got in the clinch well and did throws / takedowns. I thought that was cool.

Thanks for posting that video. That stuff's not my bag, but it's interesting to see what other people are doing.

[J.J.Binks]

Thoughts on clip

I read what you guys said about the clip so I just had to see it...

First, the good:

After reading what some people said about the clip, it wasn't half as bad as I thought...you guys DO have high standards.

Personally, I have seen and done worse. These guys probably have good stamina, though who knows maybe the rounds were only 30 seconds long. I don't have the endurance to fight like that for 2 minute rounds. Some of the flashy moves looked impressive but didn't seem very effective and some looked dangerous to the executor of the technique. Techniques looked a little sloppy at times, but nerves and fatigue could have played a part in that.

I also saw what looked like a sweet armbar/takedown.

Now for the bad:

Since this was outside, everyone had on the same t-shirt, and the audience cheered for everything, this looks like a "wuss tournament." By "wuss tournament" I mean this:

They were afraid to go enter a tournament and fight somebody they did not know (or they tried that before with limited success) so they decided to fight amongst themselves where they knew what they were getting themselves into and everyone could have a good time and be a champion. Personally I am against this because now the next time somebody tells me they are a national sparring champion I am going to wonder if it is legit or not. That dude who took that big cup home probably thinks he is the man right now for beating up his classmates.
If my teacher were to put on a tournament and have me fight one of my friends it would totally eliminate the fear factor and it wouldn't even be close to a real fight.

And those forms were just hilarious.