Grappling & Kung-Fu--Myth & Reality

[cnholmes]

Originally posted by Truewrestler
Why? Interal Force can be used to lift or break objects that would be impossible with just muscle, correct? If this is true, why can this not be shown on video?

Cop out time: I didn't say those bits - I don't actually know anything about it.

However, there's videos of people smashing blocks of ice and whatnot with their heads. I'm sure you must have seen that, and other stuff like it.

But it won't show you the difference. They could be very strong externally, or the ice could have been cut through beforehand. I know I couldn't tell.

Here's the best I can do on a message board:

Do not try this too often, this skill should be developed under supervision of a qualified master. Developing this skill fully requires a great deal of instruction and correction, or you could do yourself a lot of damage.

Get a co-operative friend.

Hold your arm out in front of you like you're holding a giant balloon to your chest.

Get your friend to put one hand on your back and one hand on your arm. They are to try and force your hand to your chest, gently at first but gradually increasing the pressure. Push back against them - you are now using external force.

Now try again, this time relax your arm, but keep some resistance. Imagine you're holding a giant balloon to your chest.

Feel the pressure of your friend's push travelling down your arm and through your shoulder from their hand on your arm, to their hand on your back. Seek the feeling that they're trying to squash a solid object.

If you can find this feeling you're using relatively low-level internal force and your friend will be pushing far harder the second time than the first to get your hand to your chest.

This is just one basic skill which is the beginnings of this art. Once you can apply this skill to other parts of your body, this can be employed in grappling and throwing to tremendous effect. For example, a similar skill in the legs can make it virtually impossible to trip you over. Obviously, the bigger your opponent, the easier they'll find it to throw you.

I hope you understand that sending you a video of the above wouldn't show you anything.

I'm sorry, thats the best I can do. If you want more than that you need to ask someone more knowledgable.

Chris.

[cnholmes]

Cool site.

http://www.bodymindandmodem.com/CoolKi/CoolKi.html

[juszczec]

Originally posted by subclock
The effectiveness of Shaolinquan , and Taijiquan in combat , has been proven many ,many times for thousands of years . It has won Wars , and repelled invading nations . It is not only effective against all forms of attack , but also against many opponents at the same time .

Isn't Tai Chi a relative latecomer on the MA scene - not developed till within the last 200 years? People were fighting wars with weapons then.

Also, be very careful with "all forms of attack". Nothing is this good.

Yes I have witnessed it in action in real fighting , and it has always come out on top .

Please post the details.

Mark

[Truewrestler]

cnholmes, thanks for the links.

Everything on "Cool Ki Tricks" are just that... tricks... parlor tricks in my opinion.

For #1, why are these guys lifting like this:

http://www.bodymindandmodem.com/CoolKi/Unlift.html

#2, why is this guy holding on to the guys hands and falling? It reminds me of Aikido when one guy moves his arm in a circle and his attacker holds on and does a flip. That's simply not real-life.

http://www.bodymindandmodem.com/CoolKi/Kokyu.html

I wrestled in highschool and both of these examples are simply rediculous. The other 2, bendable arm and the finger ring, are simply nothing more than locking muscles in their strongest positions. When your arm is straight, I guarantee I can break it.

There are positions that are strongest for each joint. An arm bent at less than a 90degree angle is difficult to straighten but when your whole body is working against one of your opponent's joints regardless of its position, your whole body wins. Fingers are strongest when closed for grabbing...that's called evolution.

Are there any other sites out there with more believable examples? I would really like to see more.

[juszczec]

Dan

Glad you are having a good time!

Originally posted by Dan

At the beginning of the last session we found a pile of bricks at the side of the area where we train so we broke a few of them with single palm strikes. Ronan who is only 18 broke it happily with one strike while smiling – he has never broken a brick in his life and just gave it a go. Sifu who has not broken a brick in over 20 years (such feats are referred to as stunt men shows in Shaolin Wahnam and not encouraged) also broke one with out exerting himself, and Anthony broke one as well.

Do you or anyone travelling with you have a camcorder? Some video of this would be helpful.

attend anyone of Sifu’s regional or intensive courses, you will experience it there and then, not at some time in the future. If you are not happy that you have got the benefits you can get your money.

Is this the $1000 attendance fee (let me know if I got that wrong, I thought I read it was the standard fee) or will you be refunded the airfare, transportation, lodging and meals as well?

To expect someone to come and demonstrate internal force to you is not being realistic – if you want someone to teach you secrets that they may not have taught their own daughters and sons as little as 30 years ago then you have to put in some effort, like go to them.

This sounds odd. A stranger shows up with money in hand and gets to learn something a teacher wouldn't give his children? Why? If you can't trust someone you have raised and educated from infancy, how can you trust someone who gets off a plane and whom you may never see again?

[QUOTE]
When I started I thought that if even 10% of what the masters claimed was true then I would have a marvellous treasure – as it turns out the past masters we also masters of the understatement !

Best regards to all, I look forward to getting back online and on the forum soon.

I thought you were all gone for a month? Has it been a month already? Did I lose track of time so badly that 4 weeks have gone by

Hope you have a safe trip back.

Mark

[subclock]

Arrogant ? What would my mom say ?

Hey ,

David ,
It was never my intention to insult grappling , nor BJJ . I also did not at all mean that you are blind ( although I can see why you thought so ) . I am very sorry . I am a very visual person and I often find meaning in metaphors that seem obtuse to others . It was not my intention to dodge any answering .

" However, I would like to know more about these "prestigious competitions" that you are referring to. " -Schermitore

If you read it again, I was saying that the Shaolin school by me won these competitions . I posted a link to their homepage which has all the evidence you will need about which competitions they have entered and won .

" First of all, answer me this--when did the term "Kung-Fu" first come into use? I'm asking because I don't know. " -Schermitore

"I would be curious to know more about how the terminology has changed over the years."

Here is another quote from " The Art of Shaolin Kung Fu " that will answer these questions .

" In the past , Kung Fu was known by other names . In fact , throughout history ( and prehistory ) , Chinese martial arts have been known by over 40 different terms ! Certain names were popular at certain periods . The term 'Kung Fu' is comparitively modern - it has been used only in the 20th century . Hence , if you examine classical Chinese texts , you will not find the term Kung Fu used . The term Wushu , which has been popular since 1949 was also used from the 3rd to the 6th century CE . The term that was most commonly used from the 3rd century BCE to the 19th century CE is 'Wuyi' . Wu means martial , and Yi means art . Both wushu and Wuyi are translated as 'martial art' , but semantically , Yi is the more precise in it's meaning .

Other common terms used to refer to Chinese martial arts in the past are listed below , with their literal English translations.
jueli - combating strength
juedi - wrestling
jiji - techniques of fighting
wuji - Martial techniques
xiangpu - butting combat
xiangpo - inter-combat
shoupo - hand combat or boxing
zuojiao - gripping and throwing
quanfa - fist techniques
quanshu - art of the fist "

I hope that is helpfull .

" Yes, but whether what they did was known as Kung-Fu or not, it had nothing to do with Internal Force. It had to do with things that concerned warriors the world over--point control, edge awareness, angles of attack, parries, counterattacks, etc. " - Schermitore

What makes you think that Internal Force cannot be involved in such skills ? If what we say is true then it would surely enhance all of these attributes .

"And that would, unfortunately, include the majority of modern Kung-Fu schools." - Schermitore

This is very sad . But very true .

" However, you betray your lack of grappling knowledge when you commented, "If you tried to tackle such a person in the legs , he would simply stab you in the neck and you would die ."

" Bro, don't insult my intelligence. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what you mentioned. I don't think there are any grapplers out there who are advocating single and double-leg takedowns for knife attacks; there are, in fact, many other defenses within various grappling systems that address those things. " - Schermitore

No ? well then you admit that such a technique is not realistic in real life .That is all I was saying . I never said that that was all there was to grappling at all . Please don't put words in my mouth . Since your knowledge is much broader on the subject of grappling , I would genuinely be interested to hear what a well trained grappler would do when say , for instance , he is being attacked by a large steel pole , or knife attacks from more than one person at the same time .

" If being skeptical and having common sense equate to being rude, then I guess I am rude. But what about the derisive comments regarding grappling and MMA that several Kung-Fu exponents on this, and other threads on this site, have made? Are they not also "insulting"? Why is one OK and not the other? " - Schermitore

As far as I recall , I have only once posted an insulting link about grappling . I was corrected by several people ( including Wahnam instructors ) and I apologised to anyone whom I may have offended . I hope you will not hold this against me . It was based on one episode I saw of UFC , and quite honestly I did think what I saw was pathetic . According to your standards of Grappling I would still say they were terrible fighters . I do not think that insulting anyone's art is right . I admit I was wrong . As for anyone elses negative comments , what do they have to do with me ?

"I suspect that I am being singled out because I am the outsider, and I am questioning the effectiveness of Internal Force" - Schermitore

I am very sorry if you feel that way . It was not my intention . I do not consider you an 'outsider' . Please accept my apology .

"Wrong. An Internal Master is a martial artist, right? And a martial artist is supposed to be one skilled in... COMBAT. Don't skirt the issue with little side debates. " - Schermitore

Again , those are not meant to be 'side debates' and make perfect sense to me . As I said my metaphors can be quite strange sometimes . Remember that Combat efficiency ( while considered important ) is by no means the most important thing in Internal Martial Arts . Being happy , compassionate , and full of energy are considered far more important . An Internal Master has 'tests' too . But these involve things like healing sick people , having a positive effect on the people around them , and generally feeling a deep sense of satisfaction , and reverance for life . My examples were meant to illustrate that entering a competition is almost an alienation from his purpose .

"Very intriguing--tell me more about this incident." -Schermitore

If you must know . I patiently waited for the Judoka to attack me . He grabbed my shirt near the shoulders and tried a common Judoka felling technique by then placing his foot behind my ankle to throw me over . As he grabbed me I moved the targeted foot back to make a bow-arrow stance . At the same time I used a circular movement with my arms to apply pressure to his arms . Since I did not push into the lock very hard ( I did not want to injure him ) , he did not release the hold . I then pushed forward and sent him falling over . He hurt his ass , so I helped him up and we went and had some food together .

" Then, why do you care what I think? Why are you even here to debate this?"

I am not here to debate , but to learn from the students and instructors at Wahnam who I believe are my best option for learning such knowledge as I seek . However , I was on the deabating team at school at one point and cannot resist one sometimes if it is proposed .

"So you're saying that your Sigung cannot be armbarred. If that is truly the case, then what is to prevent your Sigung from displaying this power in an MMA match? How is that insulting" - Schermitore

Actually , it is not you disbelief that my Sigung can't be armbarred that offended me . It was your insinuation that his demonstrations are a fraud ( ie: very convenient ) . My Sifu is over 70 years old and she knocks me around like a rag doll with almost no effort at all . I am more than twice her weight and more than a foot taller than her . When was the last time you watched a 70 somethings woman perform three hours of Taijiquan ( and she is so supple that when she does Snake Creeps Down her bum is about 2 millimeters from the ground ) without even breaking a sweat or breathing faster ? I have had chronic back pains most of my life ( sometimes so bad I wanted to die ) . How is it that after 1 year of Taijiquan that it has dissapeared almost completely ? How is it that when she gently puts her hand just near my spine when I complain of the pain in class , it often cracks and I feel the pain just dissolve in an instant ?

"Yes, and the sport fencing I do can be traced back to the smallsword-play of the 17th and 18th century French Masters--so what?"

I do not intend to justify my art due to it's lineage . Even if my Sifu told me it was pioneered by monkeys and developed by undead rats I would still practise it due to what I have gained from it . I was just illustrating that it is not appropriate to insult my Sigung .

"And perhaps you should think before you post about how your Sigung can't be armbarred."

I stand by that statement and always review my posts and edit them several times until I am happy . If you can't see why he would find such a request silly as a demonstration of his skills I do not know what to say that will make sense to you in that regard .

"LOL--here you've been claiming that I've been "insulting", and now you go out of your way to insult me, by equating me to a blind man! Your Internal Force training has certainly elevated your skills in plain old arrogance, if nothing else." -Schermitore

I am sorry you feel that way . I was not using you as the target of that example . I am a painter and such an example made sense to me .Try to look farther than the literal wording of my metaphors .( as I know they are not great sometimes )

Hi Mark , good to hear from you .

"Isn't Tai Chi a relative latecomer on the MA scene - not developed till within the last 200 years? People were fighting wars with weapons then.

Also, be very careful with "all forms of attack". Nothing is this good. "

Actually , Taijiquan is more like 800 years old . It was developed from the Shaolinquan that was learnt by the Taoist master Zhang San Feng ( or Chang San Foong ) at the Shaolin Monastary . After he had completed his Shaolin training , he went to Wudang mountain to the Purple Summit Temple , where he refined his Shaolinquan into the softer art of Taijiquan after seeing a fight between a crane and a snake . Since Taijiquan was developed from Shaolinquan ( and shares many applications ) , it can be said that it's total history dates back to +-1500 years .

I did not mean to imply that anyone who practises Taijiquan can defend against all forms of attack . However , it is well known that Grasping The Sparrows Tail contains counters for all the main forms of attack , including strikes, kicks ,falls ,holds , and grips . It depends on how well trained the individual is . Also it depends on how much better trained ( or worse ) the opponent is trained . I know that my Taijiquan combat efficiency is very basic . This is because we do not begin serious combat application for about 2/3 years ( I mean proper flowing application . we do practise single applications just to help us understand why we are moving certain ways ) . Partially this is to weed out any aggresive students who will certainly quit before that happens .

Also ,many mistakenly think that Taijiquan has no weapon training . David assumed that my Sifu only knows demonstrative sword techniques , however , I have seen my Sigung and his Sifu fighting very skillfully and quickly with real sharp swords on an old video we were shown at a Seminar . The Taijiquan weapons I know of are ; Sword , schimitar , staff , and sometimes even sharp edged fans .

Hope this helps ,
Keep well.
Kevin

p.s. Again I say David , please do not think I belittle you . I have much respect for you whether you believe it or not . It is out of concern that I try and put certain points across . If my concern is unfounded then so be it . Your training works for you , and mine for me . Good luck .

[Truewrestler]

David assumed that my Sifu only knows demonstrative sword techniques , however , I have seen my Sigung and his Sifu fighting very skillfully and quickly with real sharp swords on an old video we were shown at a Seminar .

Cool. What kind of protective clothing did they wear? How was it decided who won or lost/died?

Quick question: I was looking at some sparring footage on the site - http://www.wahnam.com/video/index.htm - and noticed that they seemed to move and attack slowly. Was this sparring as in contact fighting/sparring or just "practice" sparring? Thanks

[Truewrestler]

I like the flying armbar

[Truewrestler]

[Schermitore]

Kevin/subclock,

David ,
It was never my intention to insult grappling , nor BJJ . I also did not at all mean that you are blind ( although I can see why you thought so ) . I am very sorry . I am a very visual person and I often find meaning in metaphors that seem obtuse to others . It was not my intention to dodge any answering .

Hey, it's cool. I just get a little annoyed because it often seems as if practioners of Internal systems automatically label all combat sports athletes as a bunch of thuggish Neanderthals, who have no concept of anything outside of pure physical technique.

" However, I would like to know more about these "prestigious competitions" that you are referring to. " -Schermitore

If you read it again, I was saying that the Shaolin school by me won these competitions . I posted a link to their homepage which has all the evidence you will need about which competitions they have entered and won .

I'll check the link--thanks.

" First of all, answer me this--when did the term "Kung-Fu" first come into use? I'm asking because I don't know. " -Schermitore

"I would be curious to know more about how the terminology has changed over the years."

Here is another quote from " The Art of Shaolin Kung Fu " that will answer these questions .

" In the past , Kung Fu was known by other names . In fact , throughout history ( and prehistory ) , Chinese martial arts have been known by over 40 different terms ! Certain names were popular at certain periods . The term 'Kung Fu' is comparitively modern - it has been used only in the 20th century . Hence , if you examine classical Chinese texts , you will not find the term Kung Fu used . The term Wushu , which has been popular since 1949 was also used from the 3rd to the 6th century CE . The term that was most commonly used from the 3rd century BCE to the 19th century CE is 'Wuyi' . Wu means martial , and Yi means art . Both wushu and Wuyi are translated as 'martial art' , but semantically , Yi is the more precise in it's meaning .

Other common terms used to refer to Chinese martial arts in the past are listed below , with their literal English translations.
jueli - combating strength
juedi - wrestling
jiji - techniques of fighting
wuji - Martial techniques
xiangpu - butting combat
xiangpo - inter-combat
shoupo - hand combat or boxing
zuojiao - gripping and throwing
quanfa - fist techniques
quanshu - art of the fist "

I hope that is helpfull .

Yes indeed, it is very helpful. Thank you.

However, after reading the info you supplied above, I maintain my stance that Kung-Fu is a civilian art. The term only dates from the 20th century. Also, I think it is a bit difficult to ascertain how close the modern Kung-Fu schools are to the old wushu and wuyi systems.

Certainly, with a few notable exceptions (like the Filipino martial arts and Japanese jukenjutsu), most Asian martial arts have lost their combative application, specifically in regards to the use of weapons. There are many modern Asian systems that claim to teach the proper employment of various weapons, but as the majority are rooted merely in forms practice, all that is really left is some dramatic looking performance art.

And, as I have said elsewhere, meanings change over time. Wushu ("Martial Art" or "War Art") was originally the Chinese equivilent of bujutsu, but, in our own time, the meaning is completely different (witness the performance art "Wushu" of today).

" Yes, but whether what they did was known as Kung-Fu or not, it had nothing to do with Internal Force. It had to do with things that concerned warriors the world over--point control, edge awareness, angles of attack, parries, counterattacks, etc. " - Schermitore

What makes you think that Internal Force cannot be involved in such skills ? If what we say is true then it would surely enhance all of these attributes .

The jury is still out concerning the reality or viability of Internal Force. Until the practitioners of those arts open up to the rest of the MA community, that situation will likely remain the same. However, we can still get a pretty good idea about the potential use of Internal Force in the greater world view...

There have been many different martial traditions around the globe, over the centuries. Some cultures preferred infantry-based armies (Greeks, Romans, Swiss Reislaufer, German landsknechts, etc.), while others focused on the used of various forms of cavalry (Scythians, Sarmatians, Parthians, Alans, Huns, Mongols, Medieval Europeans, etc.). However, despite the different traditions, weapons, tactics, strategy, and so on, there was still some common ground. All armies used, to some degree, these various skills:

1. Horsemanship

2. Archery

3. Fencing (both swordsmanship and the use of other hand weapons)

4. Wrestling/CQC

These are all physical arts. They are complicated enough as they are. There is no indication that Internal Force was a genuine part of the training and/or technique of any cultures.

One never reads references about the enemies' "Internal Force" in contemporary chronicles--yet one can find plenty of comments regarding weapons, armor, fighting styles, etc.

Sure, there are stories from all cultures regarding heroes with supernatural abilities, but they appear to be just that--stories.

And you must also consider the people who did the fighting. There were, of course, professional warrior classes in various cultures (samurai, knights, landsknecht doppelsoldner, etc.), but these men were often supplemented by part-time farmer-soldiers, city militiamen, peasant conscripts, and the like (ashigaru, rank-and-file landsknechts, Saxon fyrdmen, etc.). The amount of training these men received varied considerably.

China was a part of this situation too. The Ming general, Ch'i Chi-kuang, even went so far as to develop the peculiar "Mandarin Duck" infantry squad formation, which was used to counter the Sino-Japanese pirates who plagued China's coastline (the wako). Many of the men in the "Mandarin Duck" formation were armed only with bamboo saplings, which were used to keep enemy pirates at bay while they were dispatched by spearmen and swordsmen--these men were of course peasants. Such soldiers depended upon simple and practical techniques, not the use of some mystical Internal Force.

"And that would, unfortunately, include the majority of modern Kung-Fu schools." - Schermitore

This is very sad . But very true .

Aye, that it is.

" However, you betray your lack of grappling knowledge when you commented, "If you tried to tackle such a person in the legs , he would simply stab you in the neck and you would die ."

" Bro, don't insult my intelligence. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what you mentioned. I don't think there are any grapplers out there who are advocating single and double-leg takedowns for knife attacks; there are, in fact, many other defenses within various grappling systems that address those things. " - Schermitore

No ? well then you admit that such a technique is not realistic in real life .That is all I was saying . I never said that that was all there was to grappling at all . Please don't put words in my mouth .

And don't put words in mine. Just because a single or double-leg takedown is not suitable for dealing with an attacker armed with a knife does not mean that those techniques have no application in "real life". In certain situations, against an unarmed foe, they can still be of use. Keep also in mind that, while freestyle wrestlers will typically drop to their knees when executing such maneuvers, it is not necessary to do so (indeed, it is not advisable for street encounters). BJJ players and old-style catch wrestlers still "change levels" when performing these takedowns, but they do not drop down so low. That being said, judo/BJJ-style hip and shoulder throws, as well as various trips and sweeps, generally have more street application, IMHO.

Since your knowledge is much broader on the subject of grappling , I would genuinely be interested to hear what a well trained grappler would do when say , for instance , he is being attacked by a large steel pole , or knife attacks from more than one person at the same time .

Like may martial arts, BJJ has both sport and street variations. Royce Gracie just put out a book on BJJ self-defense, and his brother Rorion teaches such techniques to various police forces. In addition, Mario Sperry of the Brazilian Top Team has videos out, that cover the street application of BJJ.

My own limited training in BJJ has been of the sport variety. The knife defenses that I personally know come primarily from my FMA training. The Philippines has one of the most famous "blade cultures" in the history of martial arts, and so it is only natural that they have many unarmed knife defenses. Generally speaking, thrusts are easier for the unarmed man to defend against (as opposed to slashes). Also, keep in mind that the vast majority of unarmed knife defenses will work only against comparatively simple, commited attacks (and mainly by attackers of limited skill). This pretty much applies to all self-defense systems. A truly skilled knife fighter will, in all seriousness, carve you up. This is no joke. In such a situation, it is naturally best to run, or to find some sort of improvised weapon, in order to even up the odds. For an attack by two knife-armed assailants, running looks even better!

" If being skeptical and having common sense equate to being rude, then I guess I am rude. But what about the derisive comments regarding grappling and MMA that several Kung-Fu exponents on this, and other threads on this site, have made? Are they not also "insulting"? Why is one OK and not the other? " - Schermitore

As far as I recall , I have only once posted an insulting link about grappling . I was corrected by several people ( including Wahnam instructors ) and I apologised to anyone whom I may have offended . I hope you will not hold this against me . It was based on one episode I saw of UFC , and quite honestly I did think what I saw was pathetic . According to your standards of Grappling I would still say they were terrible fighters . I do not think that insulting anyone's art is right . I admit I was wrong . As for anyone elses negative comments , what do they have to do with me ?

What about your allusion to me being like a blind man?

"I suspect that I am being singled out because I am the outsider, and I am questioning the effectiveness of Internal Force" - Schermitore

I am very sorry if you feel that way . It was not my intention . I do not consider you an 'outsider' . Please accept my apology .

Again, it's no big deal. I suppose that it's something to be expected to some degree, as we come from different martial backgrounds.

"Wrong. An Internal Master is a martial artist, right? And a martial artist is supposed to be one skilled in... COMBAT. Don't skirt the issue with little side debates. " - Schermitore

Again , those are not meant to be 'side debates' and make perfect sense to me . As I said my metaphors can be quite strange sometimes . Remember that Combat efficiency ( while considered important ) is by no means the most important thing in Internal Martial Arts .

With all due respect, combative efficiency should be the most important thing in any true martial art...

Being happy , compassionate , and full of energy are considered far more important .

That, I suspect, is simply reflective of the dilution of modern Kung-Fu.

An Internal Master has 'tests' too . But these involve things like healing sick people , having a positive effect on the people around them , and generally feeling a deep sense of satisfaction , and reverance for life . My examples were meant to illustrate that entering a competition is almost an alienation from his purpose .

Healing people and the like are positive things, and are to be commended (hey, the crusading Knights Hospitallers, grim professional warriors though they may have been, actually got their name from the fact that they ran a hospital in Jerusalem for sick pilgrims). However, don't you see the obvious contradiction here? I mean, we have various Wahnam members talking about "real combat" (and criticizing combat sports in the process), and then you mention how combative efficiency is not even at the top of the list in the Internal arts!

"Very intriguing--tell me more about this incident." -Schermitore

If you must know . I patiently waited for the Judoka to attack me . He grabbed my shirt near the shoulders and tried a common Judoka felling technique by then placing his foot behind my ankle to throw me over . As he grabbed me I moved the targeted foot back to make a bow-arrow stance . At the same time I used a circular movement with my arms to apply pressure to his arms . Since I did not push into the lock very hard ( I did not want to injure him ) , he did not release the hold . I then pushed forward and sent him falling over . He hurt his ass , so I helped him up and we went and had some food together .

I'm having a slightly hard time picturing what happened, since I don't know what the "bow-arrow stance" is. You say this guy was a black belt?

" Then, why do you care what I think? Why are you even here to debate this?"

I am not here to debate , but to learn from the students and instructors at Wahnam who I believe are my best option for learning such knowledge as I seek . However , I was on the deabating team at school at one point and cannot resist one sometimes if it is proposed .

Aha!

"So you're saying that your Sigung cannot be armbarred. If that is truly the case, then what is to prevent your Sigung from displaying this power in an MMA match? How is that insulting" - Schermitore

Actually , it is not you disbelief that my Sigung can't be armbarred that offended me . It was your insinuation that his demonstrations are a fraud ( ie: very convenient ) .

C'mon, you can't blame me for that! So much of this Internal stuff centers around demonstrations of the master's own choosing--surely you can see where this would bug a skeptic!

My Sifu is over 70 years old and she knocks me around like a rag doll with almost no effort at all . I am more than twice her weight and more than a foot taller than her .

Perhaps you should try a double-leg takedown (hey, I'm just kidding--I would never advocate doing such a thing to a senior citizen).

When was the last time you watched a 70 somethings woman perform three hours of Taijiquan ( and she is so supple that when she does Snake Creeps Down her bum is about 2 millimeters from the ground ) without even breaking a sweat or breathing faster ? I have had chronic back pains most of my life ( sometimes so bad I wanted to die ) . How is it that after 1 year of Taijiquan that it has dissapeared almost completely ? How is it that when she gently puts her hand just near my spine when I complain of the pain in class , it often cracks and I feel the pain just dissolve in an instant ?

No doubt Tai Chi can be beneficial exercise. My older brother is a practitioner, and it has helped him. Still, as far as the cracking spine bit goes, I admittedly don't have an answer.

"Yes, and the sport fencing I do can be traced back to the smallsword-play of the 17th and 18th century French Masters--so what?"

I do not intend to justify my art due to it's lineage . Even if my Sifu told me it was pioneered by monkeys and developed by undead rats I would still practise it due to what I have gained from it . I was just illustrating that it is not appropriate to insult my Sigung .

And I still don't think I did, but since you felt that way, I deemed an apology to be absolutely necessary.

"And perhaps you should think before you post about how your Sigung can't be armbarred."

I stand by that statement and always review my posts and edit them several times until I am happy . If you can't see why he would find such a request silly as a demonstration of his skills I do not know what to say that will make sense to you in that regard .

Why on earth would your Sigung find such a request "silly"? Think about it--assuming that what you say is true, your Sigung could literally revolutionize the MA world, by showing his ability to not be armbarred whatsoever in a real fight. MMAists would now be faced with a totally new challenge--how to defeat Internal Force. Why, then, do the Internal Masters look the other way?

"LOL--here you've been claiming that I've been "insulting", and now you go out of your way to insult me, by equating me to a blind man! Your Internal Force training has certainly elevated your skills in plain old arrogance, if nothing else." -Schermitore

I am sorry you feel that way . I was not using you as the target of that example . I am a painter and such an example made sense to me .Try to look farther than the literal wording of my metaphors .( as I know they are not great sometimes )

That's cool--we already covered this stuff.

Hi Mark , good to hear from you .

"Isn't Tai Chi a relative latecomer on the MA scene - not developed till within the last 200 years? People were fighting wars with weapons then.

Also, be very careful with "all forms of attack". Nothing is this good. "

Actually , Taijiquan is more like 800 years old . It was developed from the Shaolinquan that was learnt by the Taoist master Zhang San Feng ( or Chang San Foong ) at the Shaolin Monastary . After he had completed his Shaolin training , he went to Wudang mountain to the Purple Summit Temple , where he refined his Shaolinquan into the softer art of Taijiquan after seeing a fight between a crane and a snake . Since Taijiquan was developed from Shaolinquan ( and shares many applications ) , it can be said that it's total history dates back to +-1500 years .

But how much of the above is documented as fact, and how much of it is apocryphal?

I did not mean to imply that anyone who practises Taijiquan can defend against all forms of attack . However , it is well known that Grasping The Sparrows Tail contains counters for all the main forms of attack , including strikes, kicks ,falls ,holds , and grips .

I highly doubt that, if only because there are so many variations of similar attacks. For example, defending against the "grips" of a BJJ player could be a bit different from defending against the "grips" of a catch wrestler, because, while they have similar submission holds, their tactical approach is completely different.

It depends on how well trained the individual is . Also it depends on how much better trained ( or worse ) the opponent is trained .

That applies to all arts and all fighters, wouldn't you say?

Also ,many mistakenly think that Taijiquan has no weapon training . David assumed that my Sifu only knows demonstrative sword techniques , however , I have seen my Sigung and his Sifu fighting very skillfully and quickly with real sharp swords on an old video we were shown at a Seminar . The Taijiquan weapons I know of are ; Sword , schimitar , staff , and sometimes even sharp edged fans .

Please describe this combat between your Sigung and Sifu with the "real sharp swords"--it does not sound like free-sparring, unless they were actually trying to kill each other (which I also doubt).

And it is pretty clear that the current Chinese MA weapons heritage is, by and large, no longer a functional heritage (which contrasts heavily with the many FMA systems).

p.s. Again I say David , please do not think I belittle you . I have much respect for you whether you believe it or not . It is out of concern that I try and put certain points across . If my concern is unfounded then so be it . Your training works for you , and mine for me . Good luck .

Fair enough.

Respectfully,

David Black Mastro

[Schermitore]

The Flying Armbar!

Truewrestler,

Nice pics you posted.

Everyone,

For those who may not be familiar with this technique, I'll break it down for you.

This is a rather radical variation of judo's juji-gatame armbar. The attacker isolates the targeted arm with one of his hands, while grabbing the opponent behind the neck with the other hand. The attacker then vaults up and swings his legs into position for the armbar. From there, it's basically a juji-gatame.

The Flying Armbar was first popularized by Russian sambo players in judo competition. Sambo is a modern form of Russian grappling (their national style, in fact), that combines judo with several indigenous Eurasian forms of wrestling. It features many high-amplitude throws. Unlike judo, chokes are not allowed in sport sambo (though they are featured in the combative version). Also unlike judo, sambo features leg locks. Sambo is similar to western wrestling styles, in that there is no guard work (though current samboists cross-train in BJJ, since it is essential to know the intricacies of the guard).

In the 1960's, the samboists failed to get their art included in the Olympics, and so they turned to judo competition. Since their famous leg locks were not allowed, they instead sought unconventional ways to go for armlocks, and the Flying Armbar was one of their signature moves.

However, the sambo guys didn't invent the Flying Armbar. I was just at Borders Books and saw a new text on the Gracies, and inside was an old photo of one of the elder Gracies (Either Helio or Carlson, I think) performing a Flying Armbar.

[subclock]

Hi ,

"Cool. What kind of protective clothing did they wear? How was it decided who won or lost/died?" - Truewrestler

"Please describe this combat between your Sigung and Sifu with the "real sharp swords"--it does not sound like free-sparring, unless they were actually trying to kill each other (which I also doubt). " - Schermitore

Hey , I think I should point out that although my Sigung is very skillfull with the sword (realistically ), his own Sifu was miles above him in skill .
They used no protective gear . It was a case of my Sigung being asked to come at him with everything he had , and his Sifu easily handling it all with a big smile on his face . This was as real as sword fighting gets . Many of the moves would certainly have been fatal if his Sifu was not so well trained ( he actually brought Taijiquan to South Africa in secret during Apartheid and was the first peron in my country to teach Taijiquan to non-chinese practitioners . ) . Our Grandmaster practised for more than 70 years to attain his skill ! The speed at which they fought was almost blinding .

Even if my Sigung had gotten through his Masters defense , he was well trained enough , and had enough self control to be able to stop just an inch from his target .

" And it is pretty clear that the current Chinese MA weapons heritage is, by and large, no longer a functional heritage (which contrasts heavily with the many FMA systems)." - Schermitore

Yes , there is no real need to be able to use classical weapons for real fighting these days, since we don't carry swords around in public anymore . However , I will eventually learn how to spar realistically with a sword ,purely because my Sigung believes that it is an important ( and enjoyable ) aspect of traditional Taijiquan .
It is also an important training tool in eventually creating unity between the sword and body and mind ,so that there is no end or beginning . At this stage the practitioner can send internal force through the sword at the point of contact . My Sifu can apply this technique very well .

Truewrestler ,
In the second picture you posted , is the blonde guy not extremely open to getting a 'whole lotta palm' right in the nose from the already well positioned opponent ? Surely the blonde guy was successfull due to the first guy missing such an opening .
Also , when you are armbarred , what is to stop you from just dropping the guy head first onto the canvas ? Is this not allowed due to the fact that you could easily break the guys neck in that way ? Surely that would also take away some of the strain on your arm at the same time ? I ask ,not to insult these techniques ,but rather because I see a lot of openings for counter moves . Maybe someone with more grappling knowledge could fill me in on something important I might be missing .

" Just because a single or double-leg takedown is not suitable for dealing with an attacker armed with a knife does not mean that those techniques have no application in "real life". " - Schermitore

But surely if he attacked me thus , if there were no rules, I could bring my elbow ( or phoenix-eye fist ) down onto the side of his temple ( or neck ) , possibly killing him ?

" A truly skilled knife fighter will, in all seriousness, carve you up. This is no joke. In such a situation, it is naturally best to run, or to find some sort of improvised weapon, in order to even up the odds. For an attack by two knife-armed assailants, running looks even better!" - Schermitore

Yes , I agree that it is always better to run if possible. I feel that if you avoid the fight altogether than you have won the fight ( as well as a different fight inside yourself ).

"With all due respect, combative efficiency should be the most important thing in any true martial art..." - Schermitore

That is opinion . I personally disagree . I think it all depends on what you would like to gain from your chosen art .

I did not say that combat effieciency was unimportant , or not very important . I said that when compared to some of the other benefits of Internal Arts , combat efficiency is significantly less important ( but still important in it's own right ) .

Quite honestly , if someone attacked me to take my life ( and I had no other choice other than to fight or die ) , I would grab their testicles and squeeze as hard as I could , or give them a snake fist to the throat , or grind down their shin with my heel ( all of which are Taijiquan applications for real combat ). Then I would still run . If they tried to tackle me low I might just knee them right in the face using my free arm to pull their face down as I strike . If they tried to tackle me high I might press my thumbs into their eyes .

" Being happy , compassionate , and full of energy are considered far more important .

That, I suspect, is simply reflective of the dilution of modern Kung-Fu. " - Schemitore

I do not mean 'quite' happy , compassionate , and full of energy . I mean being more happy , compassionate , and full of energy than most professional athletes ( even when it is during the worst day of your life ) . I can already see the insults flying to me from this statement ( I am not directing that at you personally ) . If though , such benefits are at the sacrifice of combat efficiency then I would agree completely that it cannot be called Kung Fu or MA .

" However, don't you see the obvious contradiction here? I mean, we have various Wahnam members talking about "real combat" (and criticizing combat sports in the process), and then you mention how combative efficiency is not even at the top of the list in the Internal arts!" - Schermitore

I see no contradiction at all . Please elaborate . I think you are thinking too dualistically on such statements . Just because we say that combat efficiency is not the most important , doesn't mean we are automatically implying that it is not important . Up can also be down .

" I'm having a slightly hard time picturing what happened, since I don't know what the "bow-arrow stance" is. You say this guy was a black belt? " - Schermitore

And here is another example of the difficulty of explaining physical movement with words and no pictures . Remember that although my explanation was quite long , this all happened in seconds . The way I was taught Bow-arrow is this . If you stand with your feet shoulder width apart and then slide one of your feet ( say the left ) back a few feet ( depending on how tall you are ) . The front ( right foot ) is slightly turned in ( to prevent snap kicks at the genitals as well as to add further solidness to your stance ) .The back foot points out at about 45 degrees . This stance is common in many styles ( i learnt it first in Karate ) . In fatc I'm sure by now you know what I mean and wish I would stop explaining the stance.

I started with shoulder feet apart . As he tried to trip me I moved my foot back to form the bow arrow . This caused a slight turning of my waist which also helped for a wind up for my push . He was a blackbelt . I am no pushover . I used to win tug-of-war competitions against people much bigger than me all the time when I was younger . You fail to believe he was skilled in Judoka because I beat him reasonably easily . I used to beat older students in Karate class all the time . Not because I was more skilled always , but because my brute strength was more , and I could take more hits without too much pain .

Anyway , belts mean nothing to me at all . Although someone should feel proud of their accomplishment , it does not always mean they are actually that good .

These days I would rather start in a False-Leg stance .

" C'mon, you can't blame me for that! So much of this Internal stuff centers around demonstrations of the master's own choosing--surely you can see where this would bug a skeptic!" - Schermitore

My Sigung did not show us these things to go " Yeah , look at me! Aren't I sooo cool ? " . He did it to show us some of the depth of the skills we are training in . There were many first timers at the seminar , who like most people , think of Taijiquan as a gentle exercise for the elderly and lazy .

" Perhaps you should try a double-leg takedown (hey, I'm just kidding--I would never advocate doing such a thing to a senior citizen). " - Schermitore

Ummm , it's been done . She constantly gets the students to try various attacks on her to demonstrate various applications form the form . Once she asked me to tackle her any way I liked ( I was a Prop in Rugby at school for a while so you know I can tackle ). At first , I tried to go easy on her because of her age . She laughingly told me to attack her properly . I pretended she was my old Maths teacher , and I tried to take her out . After I hit the floor ( and stopped sliding along it ) , I realised that I did not even touch her . She used the roll-back technique of grasping the sparrows tail .

" Still, as far as the cracking spine bit goes, I admittedly don't have an answer. " - Schermitore

The answer is that she used Internal Force . She sent healing Chi into my spine which caused the blockage to dissolve . Of course , I know that it is not the answer you want . I was very skeptical about 'Chi' energy for a long time . How can you use strength without using your muscles and momentum ? In fact , if I had not gone along when my friend asked to see one of my Sifu's classes I would probably still be a skeptic . Her energy presence is very intense . When she talks to you all you can do is smile from ear to ear for no apparent reason . Sifu Wong is far more powerfull .

Just recently , I have cured Infuenza within three days using my Taijiquan form , and Lifting the Sky . I am no stranger to Flu . I had it once so badly that I would pass out if I tried to sit up in bed . This felt like the beginning of a bad one . I went every morning to the Dam by my house and did the Yang-style short form . I would literally feel the sickness in me seeping out through my skin . I would sweat a lot and get uncontrollable shaking in my whole body ( even my hair felt like it was vibrating ) . When I finished I felt like I had never been sick at all . Interestingly , since I have started practising Qigong , this is the only illness I have had in almost 2 years now . ( i normally get sick up to 3 times a year )

" Why on earth would your Sigung find such a request "silly"? "

Because he would better spend his time teaching people who NEED the Art . He does not just sit around all day waiting to be armbarred . He is very busy teaching the sick , depressed , and spiritually unsatisfied . Also he is very humble , and does not like showing off at all, and discourages it in his students ( many of which are Masters themselves ) . That is what he would be doing . What practical benefit is there to showing Internal Force to people who already seem to know it isn't real , other than to say " Hey , look at me . I'm so cool " ? Internal Masters do not indulge in showing off their skills because it would hamper their spiritual developement .

Also , do you think that one demonstration would ever be enough to the masses ? He would constantly be challenged with new ridiculous tests of his Chi . He would find this quite annoying and a waste of his time .Even if everyone in the room was convinced , those who saw a recording would still wonder .

" I highly doubt that, if only because there are so many variations of similar attacks. For example, defending against the "grips" of a BJJ player could be a bit different from defending against the "grips" of a catch wrestler, because, while they have similar submission holds, their tactical approach is completely different. "

Yes , there are unlimited variations in which an attack can come towards you . The forms learnt in Taijiquan and Shaolinquan have been refined for a very long time of trial and error in real situations . When one uses an application in combat he would not move exactly the same regardless of the variation of the attack . He would make adjustments to the form to make is usefull in that particular situation . The forms are considered to be profound ,because they are in the best position from which to be modified to suite a situation, in the least movement possible . While in the form green dragon shoots pearl is done in a bow-arrow stance in the form, if the need be it can be executed from a false-leg stance as well ( or any other variation ) . But , although the movements may vary , their principles remain the same . Nobody said defending against all attacks was easy or takes a short time to learn .

Hmmmmm , I talk too much . I must go eat now .
All the best ,
Kevin

[Schermitore]

Armbars and Slamming

Hello Kevin,

Also , when you are armbarred , what is to stop you from just dropping the guy head first onto the canvas ? Is this not allowed due to the fact that you could easily break the guys neck in that way ? Surely that would also take away some of the strain on your arm at the same time ? I ask ,not to insult these techniques ,but rather because I see a lot of openings for counter moves . Maybe someone with more grappling knowledge could fill me in on something important I might be missing .

Actually, it's hard to drop the guy on his head, since he will naturally tuck his head forwards.

However, it is fairly common for those being armbarred to try to slam the opponent on his back (which is similar to what you described). Sometimes it works to break the lock, and sometimes it doesn't. It's actually a bit of a gamble, since, if you fail in the slamming attempt, you're most likely going to piss off the guy who's executing the armbar, and he may very well decide to apply the lock that much more. There are many fighters, particularly BJJ men, who really frown upon the slamming bit (for one thing, it's not fun to be slammed--but also see below), and some will not hesitate to literally break the opponent's arm in that case.

Also, a properly applied armbar should have the opponent's arm locked out before he even has the chance to slam you. That is another reason why the BJJ fighters look down upon the slam--it is something that is frankly more applicable to sports competition, because you are literally granting your adversary more time to slam you, because you are waiting for him to tap out. If it was a real fight, you could simply go for the armbar and break the guy's arm, without waiting.

I'll add more commentary later.

Peace,

David Black Mastro

[juszczec]

Hi folks

Originally posted by Daniel
a true traditional martial art practicioner,

I submit this doesn't exist. What is tradition? Do we train the same way as someone did 2000 years ago? 500 years ago? 100 years ago? 50 years ago?

Should we?

The folks from 500 years ago and earlier didn't leave an awful lot of records - so we have no way of telling.

The folks from 100 years ago left some records as did the folks from 50 years ago. What does a comparison show?

I submit traditional or not doesn't matter - there are only effective and ineffective training methods. The Danaher article and my own experience supports this.

Mark

[juszczec]

Originally posted by subclock
There are many famous generals ( ie: Yun Fei ) who were not only Kung Fu masters , but successfully implemented Kung Fu principles in times of war.

Please describe. Otherwise you run the same risk as saying the Mongols wrestled, their armies conquered much of the known world, therefore they did it with Mongolian wrestling principles

or

Some members of the US armed forces do BJJ. They applied BJJ strategy to the last war with Iraq.

Yes , they were . And the training of these well organised armies ( with and without weapons ) was done with Kung Fu .

Ok. Did any Chinese armies claim their successes came from development and application of internal force by their troops?

I too , find the claim that a wrestler could handle any one of the street kids down the road from me in Hillbrow ( who sniff more glue than train MA ), very ,very funny . Wait a minute , actually it is not funny once someone gets killed

This is an important point. We should be very careful about how we train because ultimately our lives or the lives of some innocent could be at stake. We should constantly evaluate our training in terms of this fact.

Yet ,as you tell me you are being polite , you add more insult at the same time .

Schermitore is just trying to stir things up. Although I don't express myself as he does, he raises valid questions.

That makes as much sense as an Internal Master entering a competition fight .

I'm not asking for this. I think the idea of any normal man competing with some of the monsters found in MMA competitions is insane. I would, however, like to see some examples of how internal force training can be of benefit. I've heard the testimonials now I'd like to see some demonstrations of internal force and ask questions as to how the result was achieved.

Since you ask , it was an impromtu challenge from the Judoka exponent . There was no formal competition . He simply came at me , and I beat him . There were no rules imposed ( although I did not expect to get one to the family jewels ) .

Sound like you were attacked. Why wouldn't you expect someone to try and kick you in the groin or worse?

Because they have already achieved what they wanted and do not really care what you think

Why? I've achieved a great deal of what I want and I'm happy to answer questions. I'll listen to anyone's opinions and even act on them if they back them up with sound reasoning.

Fair question . I know it was real because I experienced it for myself . When I felt my Chi it was not like some airy fairy barely felt sensation . It was stronger than anything I have physically felt before . I have been shaken by Chi flow, while performing the Yang Style short form, so much that once I almost fell over .

Please describe this more. How long had you been training? Were you sick, tired, hungry? What was the weather like? How much sleep had you gotten?

it helped me completely cure an 8 year drug habit

All argument aside - good for you. And I don't care if you did this thru internal force, force of will or if aliens landed in your living room and told you to stop

However you did it, you did a good thing. I wish you luck in your continued sobriety.

The reasons for him not demonstrating his skills to you are for the same reason that I would not demonstrate paint colour mixing techniques to the blind . It would be pointless .

Why? I think ultimately one of the things people want out of this is some deeper knowledge of how this works. I'd be willing to listen as long as I could ask questions.

Mark