Grappling & Kung-Fu--Myth & Reality

[grammatoncleric]

Hi Sipak Luo Lang,

What is semicontact, when people never have been thought systematically with a profound methology to use semicontact or whatever contact?
I am curious about this, as someone needs to learn systematically this skill.

Semi contact to me is hitting with only fraction of full power, but enough that it will provoke a real reaction. That's probably not a good articulation, I'm thinking back to when I used to spar, we hit hard enough so that it was unpleasant to be hit and compelled defence, but without full intent.

Most other Martialartists have never learnt this. That's a fact.

I disagree, alot of clubs engage in light sparring.

If someone hits his students intentionally, tell me how can this person control his intention?

When I mean intent, I mean frame of mind. Paul was hitting to demonstrate, when sparring we hit so that we can learn. In full contact sport/match fighting you spar to incapacitate your opponent, usually.

The point is that Jamie pointed out that he was taking care to have to use an Internal strike as his opponent probably could not control himself and his emotions. Then as it would end in full contact, well then you use the best stragedy which would assure safety.

I think that is unfair to Paul. He listened to requests to change his manner of writing, and came across to me as a nice guy to me by the end. He seemed level headed enough to me, and he even stated that his reason for not wanting video taping is that it may invoke ego, and turn a friendly session into 'proving something'.

I'm was unsure wether to write this I understand how serious questioning seniors can be, but the challenge (to me) has become ominous.

I personally if I was presented with a challenge - that I had the option of not engaging in, and thought it may result in lasting injury or death of my opponent, I'd decline.

Sihing Jamie, is probably more emotionally balanced than me, and wiser but having being 'offered' similar challenges often as a security guard, and now disliking unneccesary violence.

But we are talking about an avoidable situation that may result in the death of another human being, surely we should avoid such a situation at all costs?

This is not a forum for dreamers and talkers.
Please keep your un-informed and often rude comments to yourself.

Dear Sihing Jamie,

I have failed to do as you requests - I knew my outspoken attitude would get me in trouble here - but I did it to prevent a possible tragedy. I await the consequences.

You probably are more spiritually cultivated than me, I recall you on the summer camp you were confident and friendly.

May I ask a question, is this a common way of accepting challenges in Wahnam?

[Antonius]

This is all very amusing to me. Truly.

A while ago, we discussed why genuine internal masters are generally not interested in MMA competitions. One of the reasons offered was that masters don't want to hurt anyone. That answer was laughed at by several visiting grapplers and MMAists. It was viewed as a cowardly excuse not to fight. Basically, they viewed it as BS.

What I find amusing is that we now have the opposite scenario. Jamie has gallantly stepped forward to defend his school and his Sifu from what he (and others) perceived as disrespect. Whereas before we were being called cowards, now we're being called immoral!

It just goes to show you that you can't please everyone.

Folks, I hate to break it to you, but challenge matches are a traditional part of martial arts culture. Things have calmed down a lot today, and challenges are rare. But even back in my Karate days in the early 1990s in New York City, challenges still happened. Injuries, sometimes severe, were not uncommon in those challenge matches.

One of the problems with the grappling fad is that the shoot almost requires a powerful response. Even the great Taijiquan master Cheng Man Ching, who would normally just bounce away his challengers, said that if someone tried to tackle him, then he would be forced to strike the head, possibly killing the person. Can we really expect more from Jamie than from grandmaster Cheng Man Ching?

For me, friendly sparring is always preferred. I know that I can control my strikes, and I'll do it happily. However, I also know that there are certain situations where I would not hesitate to "unload," so to speak. Generally speaking, I try to avoid those situations. But you know what? If someone walked into our school and disrespected my Sifu, I would be the first to step forward to take the challenge. And if he tried to tackle me, I would do everything in my power to stop his shoot.

[onetwo12]

God bless you all

Dear Grammatoncleric and Onetwo12


I am tired of hearing your comments.

I had posted twice before you wrote this. I am sorry to have tired you so quickly. Sincerely, I am.

I know for a fact, that you and many others do not train and if you ever bother to train, it is wrong and nothing like the way our beloved past masters practiced.

I am interested as to how you know for a fact that I do not train; I have written very little here, and certainly nothing about my experience, if any, in the martial arts. Think what you will.

Please keep your un-informed and often rude comments to yourself.

Having reviewed both of my posts, I am surprised that you consider them rude. This was not my intention. I am sorry that you have found cause for offence in them.


As for uninformed? I do not consider myself uninformed on what does or does not constitute right and moral behaviour.
I believe, and I should think many share this view, that life is sacred, and that violence and harm are to be avoided where possible. Yes, I believe that there are times where violence and harmful acts are justified, to avoid a greater harm for instance, but I believe that such actions should always be proportionate.

I strongly believe that faced with the option of engaging in a sparring match that one is deeply concerned may result in the death of one of the participants, or not taking part, the latter should be the only right choice for JamieR. I do not believe that defending your school, your master, your fellow wahnam students, or your reputation against insult, justify risking killing a man.

I am saddened, and concerned, that Wahnam believes otherwise.


JamieR, please accept this sincere advice: You have expressed your serious concerns that you might kill or seriously injure an opponent in friendly sparring. If, nonetheless, you do pursue this encounter, and you do seriously injure or kill him or her, I do not think that any written disclaimer from your victim will ease the guilt and regret you would feel. If I have misjudged you, and you believe you would feel absolved of any responsibility, then I apologise for being presumptious, but you have my sympathies all them same.

Antonius, you said:
"If someone walked into our school and disrespected my Sifu, I would be the first to step forward to take the challenge. And if he tried to tackle me, I would do everything in my power to stop his shoot." (sorry, I cannot always get the quote function to work)
I have a suggestion. I hope you take it in the way that it is intended: as an attempt to avoid uneccessary pain or suffering. I someone insults your Sifu, and they try to tackle you: do not do everything in your power to stop their shoot. If faced with a choice between allowing the shoot to succeed, and seriously injuring or killing your opponent, then (unless your own safety is at risk) please opt for the former.

Please keep your un-informed and often rude comments to yourself.

This is your forum, and I am only a guest here. I am sorry then that by making this last post I have not complied with your request.
However, such is my belief in the sanctity of human life that I could not, with good conscience, leave without at least trying to promote this message:

Life is sacred.
Life should never be risked without very good reason.
Avenging a verbal insult against yourself, your master or your school is not a good enough reason.



It is clear that my comments are not welcome; I have been asked to keep them to myself. As you have requested it, I will refrain from posting here in future.

I wish good health to you and all who post here.

[Antonius]

Dear onetwo12,

Your comments are not unwelcome, and you should feel free to continue posting on this forum. In fact, I encourage you to keep posting. Please. I find your posts intelligent and interesting.

I agree that life is sacred. I truly believe that. I sincerely hope that I will never have to maim or kill another human in this lifetime. I would much prefer shame or humiliation to fighting an avoidable fight.

I think the basic flaw in your thinking is that you presume that JamieR is actually going to kill someone. He's not. The fact that he is capable of killing someone is the best guarantee that he won't actually do it. That's the beauty of these arts.

The first step along this path of non-violence, which I believe is what you are "preaching" (for lack of a better word), is awareness. JamieR, although still a relatively young student in the arts, is fully aware of the devastating power of his art. Without meaning to be disrespectful, Paul doesn't seem to be as aware as Jamie. Paul does not seem to acknowledge, for example, the devastating power of a Phoenix Fist to the neck.

I think this is one problem with the modern MMA competition fad -- it gives a false sense of security. Real fighting is not the same as sport fighting. Anyone who has ever been in a fight knows that. If you truly believe that a Phoenix Fist backed with 9 years of internal force training will not stop a shoot -- well, then there is only one way to convince you, and I'm not interested in going that route.

Back to the example of a challenge in class. I said that I would do anything and everything in my power to stop the shoot. I didn't say that I would kill. However, in certain situations, I would not hesitate to break a shoulder blade, or an arm, or even a jaw. All of these injuries can heal. Often, an injury like that can actually lead to emotional or spiritual progress.

We've never met in person (have we?). Although I would be the first person to step forward to accept a challenge for my teacher, I would also be the last person to actually hurt someone unnecessarily. When I say I would do "anything in my power," that also includes cracking jokes, buying beers, and anything else that might diffuse the situation.

However, these things don't always work, just as walking away from a street fight doesn't always work. In the end, if someone forces me into a situation where I need to use my force, then that is their bad karma. If someone corners me and my 6-year-old nephew and threatens us with a knife -- then I will do whatever I have to do. And yes, that includes killing, although I train daily to make that less and less of a necessity.

Best,

[Charles David]

Ten Shaolin Laws

Dear Siheng,

Thank you for your clarification.

Dear OneTwo12,

May I echo Anthony's words: you are indeed most welcome here. I admire your
reverence for human life. I hope that Sifu Anthony's clarification has helped to allay any misgivings or misunderstandings you may have about our school and our moral code.Speaking of which, this thread on The Ten Shaolin Laws may be of interest to you.

Thank you for your blessing. Please allow me to return the same.

With Shaolin Salute

[Pascal]

dear onetwo12

dear onetwo12,

if you take a look at the "dispelling ignorance and restoring the glory of Kung fu" thread you may find the answer to your questions. Jamie is not only challenging kaitan/paul because of the disrespect he has shown to our sifu but also for Shaolin Kung fu as a whole. The more people like Paul slander our glorious art on forums like this which are read by thousands of people the worse the situation becomes. People like Paul need to be dealt with quickly and efficiently and in some cases the only way will be confrontation. In Pauls case words were not enough because in my opinion his ego was controlling his typing fingers. It is clear he did not expect to be challenged and when he was he hastily retreated. He talked an awful lot about how powerfull he was but in the end his words seem empty. So infact absolutely no physical conflict happened and the required result was delivered. The difference is that Jamie fully intended to back up his words and kaitan cleary didnt. Strong shen against weeker shen

i hope this gives you some explanation as to why on occasion we must walk the walk as well as talk the talk.

best regards

pascal

[Ronan]

I'm greatly inspired by Jamie’s post (Post 165). Those who don't know beyond the surface of this thread, may think Jamie's over-reacting. But to those who know, Jamie wrote with honesty and couragously.


Grammatoncleric, you're kind but naïve. Do you think Kaitain became respectful when people pointed out his lack of etiquette? In response, he said he would do and say what he liked. (These are not his exact words, but as close as I could get from memory.) If you examine how ferociously and concertedly he attacked Kai, Sifu and Shaolin Wahnam, it would just being naïve to think he changed due to people’s request. Then why did he change his mood? I'd leave that for you to figure out the “why”, but I'll tell you that his change came about after he received a private message from Kai, and when he discovered that Kai was really what we said he was.


You're naïve again to think Kaitan would spar gently. The following was what Kaitain proudly told the public in his very first post in our forum.

I can hit people very hard and 'internally' .. http://www.eternal-internal.com/video/bad_demo.AVI is a blurry clip of me doing a demo last weekend. The second half shows some of the striking I do - the last one injured my student quite badly, through the armour he was wearing (you can see him crumple from the pain in his liver.)

You've sparred with Jamie. You know how gentle and careful he is in his sparring, despite his good internal force.


You're still very new in Shaolin Wahnam, and therefore may not know about our philosophy regarding challenges. We don't accept challenges lightly. We only do so if the cause is noble and after we're sure we'll win. Jamie is one of those accepted to defend Shaolin Wahnam against Kaitain’s challenge. Looking at Jamie’s time-table you'd have realized how much Jamie has sacrificed for defending the honour of our Sifu and our school.


I was involved in the training because I too was accepted to meet Kaitain’s challenge. Our preferred counter is to strike the attacker on his head as he shoots. You should know this technique very well because you practiced it at the last Summer Camp. Jamie would just gently tap you on your head.


But this was precisely what Kaitain was laughing about at us. Kaitain also laughed at our internal force. He said our counter would be ineffective on him. Even if Jamie tapped him on his head, Kaitain wouldn't concede defeat. Kaitain might then go all out to harm Jamie. Make no mistake about it. This “friendly” sparring would in no way be friendly. Kaitain has openly said that there's too much at stake.


So we had a “problem”. Should Jamie use our preferred counter on Kaitain when he shoots? Jamie was concerned that it might hurt or even kill Kaitain. But Jamie had no choice. Unless Kaitain was disabled from further fighting, he would not concede defeat.


Grammatoncleric, we're training a martial art, not toying with a dance. To be compassionate doesn't mean not hurting your opponent if you have to. Sifu once said, “If you break your opponent’s arm instead of killing him, that is being compassionate.” To go a step further, if for any reason you have to kill your opponent, you kill him in one clear strike, instead of torturing him to death, that is being compassionate. This doesn't mean I'm gonna go out and start killing people, but this is our Shaolin philosophy.


Actually Jamie has given you very good advice. Why can’t you see all these when we can? It's because you lack the mental clarity that we've derived from our dedicated training. If you train more conscientiously, instead of just talk, you too will derive such mental clarity.

Best wishes

Ronan

[Ronan]

Hi Onetwo12,


I hope I'm wrong, in which case please clarify, but I suspect that you're using the tactic of “Borrowing a Knife to Murder”.


Do you have any grudges against Kaitain? Or do you have any grudges against us?


Please know that we've nothing personal against Kaitain. As my brother, Robin, has mentioned in the “What is Genuine, Traditional Taijiquan” thread, the difference between Kaitain and us is purely professional.


Kaitain has stated that he doesn't wish to have sparring sessions with us, and we respect his wishes. Please don’t instigate us to fight.


We'll fight courageously if we have to, but when given a choice we prefer not to.


And also don’t subtly insult Jamie with such uninformed or irresponsible statements like

A more responsible course of action would be to stop pursuing a needless encounter that you believe could result in your opponents death, or at least wait until you have acquired sufficient skill and control to vastly reduce this risk

If you want to test Jamie’s skill, you can mention it in this forum, and Jamie will consider whether to accept it.


Best wishes

Ronan

[Andrew]

My my --- what has been going on whilst I was working with my wife in the Garden and my internet connection wasn't working?

We have a new moral teacher on our forum it would seem.

Onetwo12, who doesn't give his real name nor any information about himself (except that he is from UK -- I assume that is true -- and has not learnt from Sifu Wong -- I know that's true ) suddenly comes into our forum and starts giving moral lessons to us, particularly to Jamie.

Some may not realise it, but he is subtly attempting to paint Shaolin Wahnam as having low moral standards whilst disguising himself as a caring moralist. How do I know? I am sure many other Shaolin Wahnam Instructors as well as students have also seen through Onetwo12's hidden intention - thanks to our Shaolin Wahnam training which gives us mental clarity.

Jamie saw it for sure even though he did not say it explicitly. Qinqui (in Post 7 of the "So long and farewell" thread) warned Shaolin Wahnam members about such tactics, and we are naturally grateful to Qinqui for highlighting it. I am also sure Anthony saw it. But being a very kind and patient person he didn't reveal it either. Instead he took time and care to explain courteously to Onetwo12. I'm going to be more blunt.

If Onetwo has followed this thread, he would have seen that it was Kaitain who concertedly and aggressively attacked Kai, my Sifu and our school. He publicly declared that our techniques were useless and he would show us what he said. But when HIS challenges was accepted, he backed out and suddenly left our forum. That's fine of course and we accept Kaitian's choice not to spar with us. This is not the issue here. The issue is that Onetwo12 distorts the facts and attempts to suggest we are immoral. Having done this, he leaves the forum as suddenly as he appears.

As Onetwo writes clearly and coherently it is more than likely that his distortion of facts intentional rather than a mistake. If my judgment is wrong, of course, then I apologise. But this point is important. And as a Shaolin Wahnam instructor, it is my duty to make the facts known -- especially to our Shaolin Wahnam members.

Kaitain did not explicitly say that he was proud to hurt his students, but his statements revealed it. Just as Onetwo12 did not explicitly say Jamie was immoral - his statements revealed it.

In his very first post, Kaitain said:

I can hit people very hard . The second half shows some of the striking I do - the last one injured my student quite badly, through the armour he was wearing (you can see him crumple from the pain in his liver - last time we use that armour and no gloves).

He repeated his statement of hurting his student a few times in the thread, even though there was no obvious need for the repeat of such a statement.

Kaitain has clearly stated that he does not want sparring sessions with us.
In the open forum, he said:

As per shoot counters, I am currently not doing any grappling work at all due to injury . I won't be risking my knee for a few months yet Im afraid.
......
If you want to challenge me, Im not interested. As a start point I wouldnt spar with you anyway until I got to know you.

Despite these statements, Onetwo12 asked whether Kaitain expressed his wish not to spar with us in private messages. Is this a possible trick to get us to reveal Kaitain's private messages? We wouldn't do that, of course, but can say that Kaitain categorically stated he did not want to spar with us in his private messages.

But what is more damaging though subtle is Onetwo's distortion of Jamie's concern in the possibility of hurting Kaitain to Jamie's intention of hurting Kaitain.

Jamie said:

But what I am really concerned about full contact sparring with you is as follows. When you shoot I may (or may not) strike your head. I am really concerned that this may kill you. I don't believe your skull is thicker than a brick. Even if I fail to break your skull, the internal force of the strike may damage your brain, regardless of whether you believe in internal force.

Of course I would not like to do this, even though you claim that our Shaolin Wahnam strikes are too ineffective to hit you.

Onetwo12 gave the impression that Jamie intended to kill Kaitain.

He emphasized that

I do not believe that defending your school, your master, your fellow wahnam students, or your reputation against insult, justify risking killing a man. I am saddened, and concerned, that Wahnam believes otherwise.

He then disguised himself as a moralist teaching our whole school how to behave:

Life is sacred. Life should never be risked without very good reason. Avenging a verbal insult against yourself, your master or your school is not a good enough reason.

Thanks for the lessons onetwo12. But the lessons to be learned from you are not of morality but more of deception. I think Ronan got it right.

Andrew

[chris3212]

Dear all,

Something that I believe one of the Sifu's who browse this forum started (I think it may have been Sifu Andrew?), was a thread on how inadequate words are in expressing our views and intent, especially over the internet. Onetwo12 I believe that if we had all been standing next to Jamie when he made his original statement we would have a completely different view of the whole thing.

Jamie I believe is an Assistant Instructor (please correct me if I'm wrong, memory lapse ). If he was willing to kill someone in sparring to prove a point I very much doubt he would still be in the Wahnam Institute at all, let alone being an Assistant Instructor.

Lastly I have found every Sifu, and of course their students, on this forum to have been compassionate and they welcomed me onto this forum warmly and with kind hearts. These people are speaking well of Jamie, this I believe, is something to also consider.

Sorry about the long post everyone. Out to enjoy the sunshine now .

Chris

[Darryl]

Childs Play & Lowly Dogs

Hi Paul,

I'm also sorry you are leaving/have left. I hope my post might change your mind not to participate in a lively debate between you and Robin, as well as a “friendly” sparring session between you and Jamie.

Within our school, the mighty Shaolin warriors mockingly sneer at the childs play that manifests as Taijiquan. We then have to remind everyone that we are just joking, sometimes even passing out tissues and blowing some noses -- while maintaining the greatest respect for Taijiquan, of course . I was waiting keenly to see how my little brother (awww) would debate with an instructor of “Boxing-Wrestling” Taiji, ironing out whose is more genuine and traditional. I am sure there's a lot to learn in such a debate, hence one of my reasons for wanting it to happen.

Surprisingly, I'm not very concerned regarding the sparring you might have with Robin and Ronan, because I already know how it would have ended. I am more interested in the sparring you might have with Jamie. I also know the outcome, but I'm interested for another reason - he's a “lowly dog”.

In case you - or anyone else - are ignorant of kungfu culture, “lowly dogs” is an affectionate term traditional masters used for their pet students. I (as well as TaiSiheng Kai) have invested a lot of time on this particular lowly dog, so naturally we (I'm sure Kai will agree with me) would like to see how Jamie performed his counters on you.

My warrior-brother Ronan gave you an answer and generously shared with you a secret when you asked:

It's fascinating how 3 different people all suddenly want to have a 'friendly spar' with me and two of them want to video it

Actually Ronan answered only part of your question, the part concerning “all suddenly”. Not wanting to be left out, I thought I'd elabourate on the other two parts concerning 1), “3 different people” and 2), why Ronan didn’t ask for the video recording, as well as sharing an important lesson.

You insulted my Sifu (Sifu Wong) and our school. Sifu has more than 6000 students (and grand-students) all over the world, including some top police officers and army commanders. If only 10% come forward to defend Sifu, we would have 600 volunteers.

But we would not let the 600 volunteers visit your school to accept your challenge. It is not a question of space, it is a question of the secret Ronan has generously shared with you as a parting gift. We must make sure that those who accept your challenges WILL (not could) win. Based on our assessment of you, I am sure we can readily pick 36 people (which is just 6% of the 600 volunteers). If we spread them out over a year, you would have 3 visits every month, making your school very lively indeed.

For logistic reasons (you live in Brighton) we start with those staying in England. I lobbied to have my “lowly dog” (who lives in Edinburgh) included, for two reasons. Firstly, I see Brighton not as part of England but as a part of Shaolin Wahnam UK. Secondly, it was a cover up because I wanted him to test the skills that I have taught him. (Sorry folks )

Now, why didn’t Ronan ask for a video recording? As we expect this friendly sparring to be full contact (or "friendly yet forceful" if you prefer), Ronan felt that asking for a recording would be redundant because he was confident my “lowly dog” would end the fight in such a way that the second sparring session would not be necessary or possible. Then why did Robin -- who was to spar next with Kaitain -- ask for a video recording?

Could it be that Robin is extremely greatful for his Art and his Sifu? In my opinion, this has more to do with the friendly rivalry between Shaolin Kungfu and Wahnam Taijiquan within our school. Robin wanted to hit back at us, the great and noble Shaolin warriors, for calling his art “child’s play” (which it is ). Although he knew he would not have to spar with Kaitain after Jamie had done so, Robin is actually teasing us; “When you Shaolin guys fail to stop Kaitain, I shall have a video to show you what Wahnam Taijiquan can do.”

Naturally, this would be a completely unacceptable situation. What next - old women scolding me for jumping in puddles?

[Robin]

Jovial

Hi all,

SiHeng Darryl's post is both 'jovial' and 'cheeky' which are both attributes of the Monkey. I am sure he is 'monkeying' around when he refers to Wahnam Taijiquan as 'childs play'

Actually, I didnt accept Paul's challenge because of a friendly rivalry between my Taijiquan and Shaolin brothers. I accepted it because Paul insulted our Sifu and Wahnam Taijiquan. Although I must say I cant really summarize how much I have benefited from my Shaolin brothers collective knowledge.

Whether collecting gems of advice from Siheng Kai on force training, learning how to put on a stonking 'Warrior project' from Siheng Darryl, or having a constructive sparring session with my Kung-Fu brother Ronan. All of these are priceless.

[Charles David]

Priceless

Not to mention learning great new slang from around the world!

Stonking!!