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You mentioned Chin Na, and about "breaking". Surely dislocation and breaking of bones isnt particularly compassionate?
There have been a few wondeful discussions about this, unfortunately it looks like I need to work on my forum searching skill. Maybe someone can find some links?
Sometimes it is compassionate to break an arm, for example if the alternative is worse. If someone attacks you with a knife and the intent to kill and you break a few of their bones, instead of killing them (assuming you have the skill to do so) then you are being compassionate.
Now, despite my lack of skill with searching I have found this thread. Countering takedowns with Kungfu techniques _and_ a bit on compassion!
You mentioned Chin Na, and about "breaking". Surely dislocation and breaking of bones isnt particularly compassionate?
Hi Chris,
Here is a small quote from Sifu's Q&A:
But when you successfully apply a qin-na technique, you can release him immediately yet putting him out of combat -- and without hurting him seriously. The hallmarks of qin-na, therefore, are effectiveness and compassion. It is no surprise that Shaolin Kungfu is well known for qin-na, as effectiveness and compassion are also the hallmarks of Shaolin teaching.
As to ground fighting in Shaolin, it is my understanding that ground fighting is simply less desirable than standing. If it happens we flow and deal with it, there is much within Shaolin to deal with ground fighting, something most people are not aware of.
I'm sorry that I haven't had time to respond to this sooner. Most of this is in response to Paul's post here. I apologize in advance for the length of the response.
Antonio - this conversation isnt really going anywhere is it? You are clearly of the opinion that you train a superior system to anyone else - an attitude which gets a bit wearing.
Where did you get this, Paul? I never said my art was superior to yours. If anything, you're the one saying that our art is not good enough to counter a shoot. I'm saying it IS good enough to counter a shoot. That's the entire point of this discussion -- that Shaolin Kung Fu is a complete art and does not need to borrow techniques, like the sprawl, from other arts.
Jabs - I dont know where you get the idea that my stance is no good for evading a jab.
I think you're getting in the habit of putting words into my mouth. I never said you couldn't evade a jab. I said that your stance does not allow you to move (my definition of move) faster than a jab, and you seemed to agree that you cannot move faster than a jab. That's where deep stances come it. They allow you to swerve and move your body in ways that are impossible with high stances.
This doesn't mean you can't evade or defend against a jab. It means you train differently, which is what's being discussed here. Different means different, not worse. You train with high stances and have your responses to a jab. I train low stances and have mine.
What a ridiculous thing to say! Have you not heard of duck and weave?
What's with the attitude, Paul? Your statement assumes that I have no experience with such things. I feel like you're making a lot of assumptions here, and not just with me. Yes, I'm familiar with boxing. I've got 15 years in the arts, and I've been around the block once or twice. I practiced kickboxing for several years with a top-notch fighter.
For me, evasion isn't just slipping and ducking punches. It can also be retreating directly backwards. And yes, I can do that faster than a jab. I pointed you to an article which explains this concept further. I also asked you if you read the article. Have you?
Your technique would not work against a single leg - you are not dealing with the hands, you have to deal with the forward momentum. If you do not move your front foot then you are leaving yourself open - you are relying on a strike to stop it.
Did you not see me move my front foot backwards about 3 feet? That's how I deal with the forward momentum. And it does seem to work much of the time against a single-leg takedown, although these days I generally prefer a different response.
You're not as deady as you think you are.
We have a different concept of internal force. I am comfortable with my concept of force, as well as my methods for assessing it. You are welcome to underestimate me, if you like. I have no problem with that.
s for the tiger claw bit - that's predicated on getting to the position to apply it in the first place, which in _all_ cases was due to sprawling.
My typical defense to the shoot is similar to a sprawl but maintains a stance (not shown in the videos). This response gets me into the proper position to apply a claw (or a strike). Whether or not my claw has enough force to crush your trachea is a matter of debate, but whether or not I can land the claw really isn't. I seem to be able to do it effectively against grapplers, although it's true that I haven't yet tried it against a Gracie.
What you think of as deadly, just plain isnt.
Okay.
I think you'd be surprised how difficult you'd find it to make your sharp pencil stop me in a ground-fight. It's untested and unproven.
Stabbing someone in the neck with a sharp object is untested and unproven?
**Most importantly - if you do not train to do the things you describe against the attacks described, it will not come out when it needs to.
Where do you get the idea that we don't train sparring? Do you think we're one of those kungfu schools that just do pretty forms?
Internal Force, Tiger Claw, Iron Palm, Sharp Pencil - even if you think of them as valid techniques/methods, they're not going to work without a structure to place them on.
I have 15 years in the martial arts. I consider that a reasonable "structure."
Go to a BJJ/MMA gym and say you want to work some takedown defence - at least see and feel for yourself what Im talking about.
I've sparred with my share of MMA guys. I could always use more practice, but my defenses work well enough. Or did you think that I was just talking out of my ass?
Currently we're stuck in your theory versus my practice. "A guy who trains with us now used to be a good grappler" doesn't wash - how do you know what constitutes a good grappler?
No, we're not, Paul. That's your assumption. Quite frankly, I found this comment, along with some of your comments about my sihing Kai, to be on the disrespectful side.
For my part, if I somehow came off sounding disrespectful somewhere, then I apologize. That was not my intention. As I said earlier, I am enjoying the discussion, and I would hope that you are too.
Antonio - I didnt come here to argue with people, so Im going to leave your post alone for the most part, aside form some clarification. I was having a bad morning when I wrote that, so my tone was a bit pissy - for that I apologise.
By structure I mean that if you cant fight on the ground, then the techniques that you describe will not do you any good. You would not get the opportunity to stab me (as a reasonable ground fighter) in the neck with a pencil - without the basics of position and escape you just wont have the opportunity. I drill this with guys - they put a knife in their pocket. I take them down and they try and get to it - it doesnt work. However, when they apply the same to me I get to a position where I can safely get to it (mount). I was not saying your system or experience was worthless. This what I mean by untested and unproven - unless you've trained to do it, you wont do it. So no Im not suggesting you dont spar, Im suggesting that unless you train to do the specific things you describe, you cant depend on them.
Regarding Kai - I do have some issues regarding the claims he makes. I am looking into this at the moment as some of it strikes me as unlikely (hence me researching it rather than just pointing the finger). I will PM the relevant questions to Kai when I have finished looking into them. Having said that, I do not believe I was disrespectful in my post - I just said that the article posted was not a discussion on grappling and therefore shouldnt be held up as evidence of such.
Thanks for the clarification. I always appreciate efforts at clarity.
I was having a bad morning when I wrote that, so my tone was a bit pissy - for that I apologise.
Fair enough. I understand.
By structure I mean that if you cant fight on the ground, then the techniques that you describe will not do you any good.
Obviously, I'm trying not to go to the ground because it's not my forte. But if I do, then I have a few skills that I can use to not get owned in 5 seconds.
Most of what I was talking about, however, I was thinking about applying either before the takedown, or during. If I don't have a pencil (maybe I'll start carrying one ), then I feel that I can get in at least a few strikes before I'm on the ground. Similarly, if I do have a pencil or a weapon, I feel that I can get in a strike or two before being mounted. I haven't tried pulling a weapon from my belt while being taken down, but that's an interesting suggestion, and something that I will try in the future. But that's not really relevant to me because I don't carry a weapon. I would prefer to spend my time training something that I carry at all times, like my Tiger Claw.
So no Im not suggesting you dont spar, Im suggesting that unless you train to do the specific things you describe, you cant depend on them.
Yes and no. We don't train to hit full power in sparring, and yet we can deliever full power blows in combat. This is an age-old argument, and possibly another point of disagreement, but many of us have taken our sparring skills successfully to street fights, so we know that it works. Similarly, others have taken their controlled-contact skills to full contact sparring with good success.
My point is that sparring is a tool. Nothing you do in sparring, even if it is a competiton in a cage with very few rules, can exactly simulate combat. It's still an exercise. But if you are well trained, you can adapt your skills to any environment. If you are well trained to defend against a knife, then you can handle a broken bottle.
Earlier you said that, because you didn't see us training against a good shoot, we can't be sure that our defenses would work. Now, I could say the same thing regarding the videos you posted of yourself. I could say, "The guy punching you is not punching correctly. He's off balance and not rooted. Your defense would never work against a real punch." But I won't say that because I can see throught the sloppiness (no offense to your student) of the punch.
Regarding Kai - I do have some issues regarding the claims he makes.
I don't really understand your problem, but I can clearly see the disrespect in your posts. You say that you weren't disrespectful, but I say you were. For example, you made an aside about his title of "Jujutsu Grandmaster." It was a dig, and we both know it. Instead of making a snide comment like that, why not just ask?
For your information, Kai gets the title "Grandmaster" for several reasons. In the Chinese martial arts world, you are generally referred to a grandmaster when you have students who are masters. Kai does, but those are jujutsu students, not Shaolinquan students. If the term "grandmaster" isn't usually used in Jujutsu, fine. This isn't a Jujutsu forum. The point is that Kai, despite having master-level students of his own, dropped everything to learn from Sifu Wong. He doesn't even teach Jujutsu any more, focusing instead on Shaolinquan. Sifu Wong acknowledges Kai's vast experience in Jujutsu (and other arts), and accords him the title of grandmaster.
All of us who have met and trained with Kai know that he is everything he claims to be, and more. He is actually a very humble man. He is also incredibly powerful. If you have a problem with him, it's best to tread carefully, because he has earned a ton of respect from members of this forum.
So he is a grandmaster in JJ due to the title being given to him by a CMA Sifu? I find that bizarre - I will ask the CMA guys that I know (including those who are disciples of established masters) if this is something they have heard of.
OK - so I'll ask my questions publicly. As you state elsewhere on this forum, one should not take anything on face value or because someone told you it. You're asking me to do the very thing you exhort your own school not to do.:
1) How does someone get to be Guru in Muay Thai boxing? It is not a title used within the MT world. If he did train MT, did he compete? If so when/where? If not, how can he be a Guru in an art that verifies all ability through fighting.
2) Which students of Kai's recently won the German National championships in BJJ? Where was the championship held?
3) What are his qualifications to declare himself a BJJ Instructor? He says he trained with one of the Machado's, was that to a belt level? Is he a qualified coach within the Machado structure?
4) What competitions has Kai fought in to talk about 130 matches? They must be verifiable on some level. No other MMA competitor has ever had a problem naming their opponents, win or lose, so I fail to see an issue of respect here. Especially the "50 prizefights".
5) who did Kai train with in the arts he lists? It should be easy to verify his level in each of the arts he declared.
6) what is his legitimate JJ grading and with what organisation? Again it's easy to verify.
I have no problem with asking questions about something that strikes me as strange - the fact that he has a title of Grandmaster in JJ that is not from the organisation itself, is frankly misleading and disingenuous. Therefore I think that the other information needs to be clarified in order for it to be believable.
The fact that I'm warned to "tread carefully" is comical. I'm not slandering him - all Im doing is requesting evidence of what he claims to be - I think it important given that he is held up as someone who dropped 8 MA's that he was a master of to take Wahnam.
I have nothing invested in Kai as a teacher, so it's no skin off my nose whether he is what he says he is or not. But when he's presented as the evidence against what I'm commenting on, I think the questions are valid.
As for my student - he's an ex-marine, ex-policeman that's been with me for 4 months. I've spent the entire time trying to soften him up, but he makes for a great demonstration dummy as he hits hard and straight. I take no offence at all if you think his technique is sloppy since I havent worked on his striking yet. I would say that his 10 years in Kyokushinkai might give a clue as to his ability level (I dont know what belt he got to - I will find out) - of all my sparring partners, he is the one I would least like to fight for real.
In any case, I would say the difference between his punch and mine is mostly mechanical. His would knock me out if it landed. The shoot in the videos I posted would take someone down, the slow motion demo one in one of yours would not. That was the basis of the entire discussion.
Just to make myself _very_ clear - I am questioning the claims made, not the martial ability. He may well be an exceptional martial artist and a credit to your system - that is not what Im querying or implying.
"If he means the BJJ and Subgrappling Internationale Deutsche Meisterschaft (IDM) I would ask for names because the man who runs it was my first BJJ BB and I attended them in 2003 and 2004. Still I could get the results for 2005 form Micheal.
This is the biggest BJJ tournament in Germany and Michael is a member of the German Top Team and AFAIK the only German BB in Germany."
That from someone I contacted online who was based in Germany and is big on the BJJ/Judo scene (amongat other things he is a Judo BB). So some names will suffice for him to be able to check this claim out.
I fail to see the problem with asking these questions, nor any issue with the way Im asking them.
Forums allways a place to speculate and to have sometime a big mouth to anybody.
Rude and disrespect words are showing the reader the mental level of the writer.
High class or high level martial artists I met arround the world were never using rude words against others only the one who are not on that high level have in order to prove.
Some of the readers of the thread are not able to read in a right manner what is written, were is the awarness of a martialartist.
I never sayed I´m a Grandmaster of BJJ so what to discuss about I got the title Grandmaster in JJ (Ju-Jutsu).
Anyway my old school I found is Budocan Frankfurt (24 years ago) and Michael Hasselein the Nationalcoach of Germany in BJJ have been there I think last weekend to test my ex students in 3rd level white belt and few of them where winning the submissou and the international german championchip and where invited from the National Couch (as white belts) to the national team for european championchip. My old school and my old classes Ju-Jutsu, BJJ/Grappling and Jeet Kune Do are running now with my educated black belts. And they are doing there job very well.
Attending on tournaments and winning a tournament is a very big different.
But very often people saying I attend on MMA, UFC, BJJ tournaments respect but to compete 5-7 time and after that winning the final, great respect. Some of the writers should have more respect for such benefits. To teach students how to win the knowledge is a bit more then "do you know how to shoot?"
I start to train Grappling /BJJ in USA before the run swash over to Europe but I never have done any test on it even the masters were asking me for. Because JJ includes also Groundfighting but more in the selfdefense manner. But to train under the best of the word since more then 10 years gave me the opportunity to train my students very well.
And why should I gave me titles who people can improve that sounds for me like childthoughts. If I name people like GeneLebelle, Gokor, Richard S. Bustillo, Machados etc. I must be a stupid to do so if this wouldn´t be right.
One true story about forums; one of my groundfighting masters were bad titled and the speech was very bad in few forums but only from one guy. In any forum the one guy were talking bad over him, like "I will beat him, he is not as good as he is saying etc.", a IT specialist could found the adress of the man, my master went to place/adress and ring the bell. A old man arround 60 opend the door behind the man he saw a steps and a arround 16 year old saw him,stock turn and runs up. My master explain the situation to the old man. After 2 minutes the computer was flying out the windows because the father was schoked about the action of his son.
Action - reaction some people losen the meaning behind.
How to become a member of the International Hall of Fame were also Ed Parker, Bruce Lee, Chuck Norris, Jacky Chan, Richard Bustillo..... are members.
1. take master titles from somewere
2. telling lies and fary tails
3. thinking the Grandmaster Jury of the Hall of Fame are not improving you
4. no need of martial arts knowledge or any knowledge
5. no need of any fighting expirience
6. can discuss in low level form
7. you have to be unknown
These are the reason why I´m a member of "International Hall of Fame" the 1st in Germany and thats why everybody can title me "Kai"
For whom I post it?
GeneLeBelle would say:" If he doubt joke him out"
Sorry to be out of topic. But it must be sayed here in our Forum everything is allowed if its in a nice manner, we don´t like to get into the level of other forums were rude words and disrespect the normal tone is.
So some have to think before open the mouth and the discussion will run nice and smooth like a flow this is our intension.
This will be the last time I´m talking over me and my now 30 years expirience in different martial arts because I´m bored to explain myself to any who are thinking they got the key like:"... I know how to... bla,bla and how can you know bla,bla, anyway were you are ?I never heart about you.... I´m close to 50 know and have to discuss and explain myself for people are younger then my expirience. And I have to talk to them about championchips, tournaments from over 20 years ago etc. because they are thinking only now on TV and Videos from the last few years are the real ones.
I will discuss further on topic but without to explain myself anymore.
I fail to see the problem with asking these questions, nor any issue with the way Im asking them.
I think Anthony Sipac was correct in saying its not what you ask but how you ask it. Tai Sipac Kai is a very humble and reasonable guy. I think it would have been more appropriate to have personal messaged him with your questions, Im sure he would have been happy to settle your doubts. It would be the equivalent of me challenging the credentials of one of Master Gokor or Master Bustillo students on a forum before speaking to them personally, which to me seems very wrong.
Incidentally many of my classmates have met the two masters above with Tai Sipac Kai and enjoyed Beers with them! Would world renown Masters be friends with a Master they believed was fraudulant (not to mention Tai Sipac Kai's place in the martial arts hall of fame), I think not.
The original discussion on our methods of defending against grapplers was a good and informative one. We can't rely on Tai Sipac Kai's level to answer all the questions from other practitioners, but it certainly gives us faith in what we are training.
Originally Posted by J-Say: my classmates have met the two masters above with Tai Sipac Kai and enjoyed Beers with them! Would world renown Masters be friends with a Master they believed was fraudulant
I am one of those classmates and met Master Gokor about this time last year. I have not yet had the pleasure of meeting Master Bustillo, but may do so someday. I was invited to take part in a seminar with Master Gokor that Tai Sipak Kai organised, it seemed to be primarily for Tai Sipak's JuJitsu senior's but not exclusively of course. Myself and one other Shaolin Wahnam student took part in the class and it was an extremely revealing, informative and enjoyable experience for everyone involved.
The highlight for me was having the priviledge of witnessing two Masters "playing" together. Namely Tai Sipak and Gokor grappling not three feet from where I was standing.
It was inspiring to say the least, and left me in know doubt as to the skill of both masters. Not that I had any doubt to begin with anyway.
Thanks again to both Tai Sipak and Master Gokor for an amazing day. I may have forgotten much of the techniques from the day, but I will not forget the day itself.
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