Reincarnations of Jesus

[grammatoncleric]

Can any people familar with buddhism comment on this?

Can anyone familiar with hinduism look at this?

[Antonius]

The idea that Siddhartha's mother, Maya, was a virgin is not widely accepted among Buddhists. Maya was married to King Sudhodhana (spelling?) for roughly 20 years before giving birth to Siddhartha. I don't think there is much evidence to suggest that she was a virgin, or that Siddhartha's birth was conceived without sex.

And don't get me started on the concept of the "virgin" Mary. The word "virgin" is simply a mistranslation of the word for "young lady." I'll stop there.

So much for that parallel between Jesus and the Buddha. Or is it? Wait! There's still a parallel between the two -- neither of them was born to a virgin mother!

[Kevin]

Not to turn this into a debate on the virginity of Mary, Jesus' mother-but I just thought I'd throw out the opposite end of Sifu Korahais' statement.
Just as Sifu Korahais obviously believes strongly that Mary was not a virgin, his statement, "neither of them was born to a virgin mother" is by no means the authoritative, definitive, final answer on the topic. And before I finish my post, I just wanted to say this is one topic where neither side can put in the hands of the other side 100% concrete proof. All that can be offered are individual (and collective as I'll mention about below) beliefs supported by history and Tradition.

The perpetual virginity of Mary is a basic doctrine of the Roman Catholic (and I believe Orthodox Catholic) Faith. Basically that means that it is believed that Mary, Jesus' mother, remained an actual virgin before, during, and after the birth of Jesus. This belief has been taught throughout history by the various councils of the Church, the early Fathers of the Church, and expressed in the creeds of the Church.

Of course it's one of those teachings that non-Catholics (and probably a fair number of Catholics themselves) have trouble with.

It's a beautiful day where I'm at..hope everyone is having an equally enjoyable day today.

Kevin

[Antonius]

Hey Kevin,

Fair enough. I'm not an expert. I base what I know on what I've read, which isn't that much. But as a stickler for grammar and semantics, the issue of the translation of the word "almah" fascinates me. For those who are interested, this is the argument.

As for the possibility of a virgin birth (Buddha's or Jesus') -- well, I've heard of crazier things. Actually, I've seen some pretty crazy things, so I can't really rule anything out. After you've watched clouds being dispersed, your definition of "impossible" starts to change a bit.

Best,

[DarkCosmoz]

The near death experiences mentioned on the same page sound a lot like Buddha's personal experiences.

The link on the page was: http://www.near-death.com/experience...rnation04.html


Also, on the topic of reincarnation, read the strikingly parallel lives of Lincoln and Kennedy: http://www.near-death.com/experience...rnation08.html

[Damian Kissey]

The Spirit of Siddharta,Krishna and Jesus?

Why all the debate within and without the Christian ( and Roman Catholic )church over the Doctrine of Virgin Birth ? Are we too confused/embarrassed/obsessed with sex because it’s both dirty and divine ? Were there mistranslations of earlier christian writings ( as Siheng Anthonius pointed out that earlier texts simply imply “maiden” or ‘young woman’ and not necessarily a virgin )? Were some early church leaders ( they were the minority and persecuted then ) anxious to give Jesus divine status compared to the predominant Greco-Roman pantheon of gods of those times because Zeus and other gods are known for their exploits with mortal woman to produce demigod offsprings? Or are we ( the laeity and priesthood )probably not qualified to comment intellectually on things which need the transcendant knowledge of the enlightened ones ( the Christ and other Christ-like mystics) ?Maybe we need to ask the Humble Carpenter from Galilee Himself.

Nevertheless , myself coming from a catholic family ,lets intellectualize for what it’s worth : God is the Father , while His creative Power is the Mother of all things; She is pure and virginal for She gives birth without any intermediary.A Son of God is hence born of the pure and virginal Mother or Holy spirit , through the will of the Father.So Jesus , truly, was born of Virgin …..but not a virgin of this world.Is this where the story of Jesus’ birth originated?Or the stories of Siddharta , Krishna , Dionysus , Perseus , Ra and Atys ( all born by union between a god and a virgin) ? What is so wrong about a Master taking birth in the normal human way ? Jesus has claimed to be “The Son of man” , then surely a man has been involved?Indeed , if he could avoid the father , why need he have selected a mother ?Why not simply descend from the sky as an adult ready to begin ministry ?Why choose the one means of miraculous entry that would have been most difficult to prove ?

Pick up the Bible ( in Malaysia & Indonesia , we have the Bahasa Indonesia version …..but you may also check older versions like the Latin Vulgate or Greek version if you know the lingo) and check for yourself : The doctrine of the virgin birth is absent from the entire New Testament of the Bible , except for two stories in the Gospel of Luke ( Luke 1:26-38)and Matthew (Matthew 1:18-25) which is contradictory to the Gospel of Mark ( Mark 6:3-5) found in the same Bible which speaks of Jesus’ brothers and sisters ( usually documented as 4 boys and 2 girls by bible historians , namely James,Joses,Juda,Simon and Lydia , Lysia );Luke and Mathew also make the curious attempt to trace Jesus’ family tree ( two entirely different genealogies in which practically all the names differ ! ) which sit awkwardly alongside stories of the virgin birth although the tracing of Jesus’ ancestry to David and all the way to Adam ( the first man …..where did the first woman or first grandchild come from is a different topic) was too important to omit if Jesus have to fulfill the Messiah prophecies of earlier Jewish prophets documented in the Old Testament of the Bible.Historically , there is no doubt that Jesus did have at least one brother , James, because Paul and other writers speak of him and there is even a letter attributed to him in the New Testament.Some early Christians also believe that Didymos Judas Thomas ( corresponding to the Juda of Mark’s list of Jesus’ brothers ) is not only Jesus’ brother, but his twin brother too!In fact , the Greek ‘didymos’ and the Aramaic ‘Thomas’ both mean ‘twin’.

It is unlikely that we will ever know the true history of Jesus and his family by mental gymnastics or intellectualization , nor does it make any difference to the spirit of his teachings .Likewise with Prince Siddharta’s or Krishna's conception in correlation with the Zen spirit in the Shaolin Arts or Genuine Yoga.God bless you , God willing .

[beggarsu]

Being a little familiar with Hinduism, I thought I would comment on some of the things in the webpage about similarities between Jesus and Krishna. I have never heard of Krishna being a carpenter. The two stories I know related to this say his father was either a cowherder or another King (Krishna's mother's brother took his father's place as King, so was a King). This brother is the tyrant the page refers to in (5). He didn't kill thousands of children. He killed the seven children Krishna's mother became pregnant with in jail (he imprisoned her because of a prophecy he heard from angels that she would have a child to overthrow him). Krishna was the eighth one and his murder was saved by the intervention of Vishnu. There weren't any wise men or sheperds who visited him, but these various gods such as Vishnu were in the story of his birth.

Aaron

[Kevin]

Sifu Korahais, I read the article from the link you provided. It was pretty interesting. I've never heard of that particular virginity debate (almah) before.

The following Q/A from http://www.catholic.com/ does a pretty good job of clearing the matter up-

["Q: A friend of mine contends that the Bible nowhere makes the prophecy that Mary would be a virgin, only that she would be a young girl. He says that's what it means in the original Hebrew. Is he correct?

A: The controversy surrounds the translation of Isaiah 7:14 "Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Emmanuel." This Old Testament prophecy is quoted in the gospel of Matthew (Matt. 1:23) and specifically applied to the virginal conception of Christ.

Christians have always cherished this prophecy of Isaiah and its miraculous fulfillment in the virgin birth of Jesus the Messiah. Likewise, non-believers have attacked this prophecy in an attempt to discredit Christ and his Church; the attack is a weak one that is easily refuted.

The Hebrew word translated as virgin, almah, can also be translated as "young woman" but as Strong's Hebrew Lexicon notes "there is no instance where it can be proved that almah designates a young woman who is not a virgin."

Additional evidence that the correct translation is "virgin" is supplied by the Septuagint version of the Bible, a Greek translation of the Old Testament made several centuries before Christ. It was translated by Jewish scholars for use by Greek-speaking Jews, mainly in Alexandria.

The Septuagint translates the Hebrew almah into Greek as parthenos. This Greek term has the precise meaning of "virgin." So several centuries before the birth of Christ, before there was any reason to attack his Church, the meaning of Isaiah 7:14 was clear: almah = parthenos = virgin."]

Best wishes,

Kevin

[MoMoJuice]

Hello everyone,

I've found this thread to be interesting, thanks to everyone who participated in it

The word "virgin" is simply a mistranslation of the word for "young lady." I'll stop there.

According to our Holy book the Qur'an, the prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) was born without a father, this was one of his many miracles. Actually, there is a whole chapter in the Qur'an called "Maryam", which is the arabic word for Mary. I hope you guys don't mind, I will post part of the chapter here:

019.016 Relate in the Book (the story of) Mary, when she withdrew from her family to a place in the East.

019.017 She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them; then We sent to her our angel, and he appeared before her as a man in all respects.

019.018 She said: "I seek refuge from thee to (God) Most Gracious: (come not near) if thou dost fear God."

019.019 He said: "Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son.

019.020 She said: "How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?"

019.021 He said: "So (it will be): Thy Lord saith, 'that is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us':It is a matter (so) decreed."

019.022 So she conceived him, and she retired with him to a remote place.

019.023 And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a palm-tree: She cried (in her anguish): "Ah! would that I had died before this! would that I had been a thing forgotten and out of sight!"

019.024 But (a voice) cried to her from beneath the (palm-tree): "Grieve not! for thy Lord hath provided a rivulet beneath thee;

019.025 "And shake towards thyself the trunk of the palm-tree: It will let fall fresh ripe dates upon thee.

019.026 "So eat and drink and cool (thine) eye. And if thou dost see any man, say, 'I have vowed a fast to (God) Most Gracious, and this day will I enter into not talk with any human being'"

019.027 At length she brought the (babe) to her people, carrying him (in her arms). They said: "O Mary! truly an amazing thing hast thou brought!

019.028 "O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste!"

019.029 But she pointed to the babe. They said: "How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?"

019.030 He said: "I am indeed a servant of God: He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet;

019.031 "And He hath made me blessed wheresoever I be, and hath enjoined on me Prayer and Charity as long as I live;

019.032 "(He) hath made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable;

019.033 "So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)"!

019.034 Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute.

This was just to point a different (or similar?) view. Thank you for taking the time to read it.

Respectfully,
MoMo.

[HugoDarien]

Reincarnations of Jesus

Good Day! I dont belive in Reincarnation, in fact I know that Reincarnation dont exist, but if you are intresting in Reincarnation and the life of Jesus Christ in other countrys like the Himmalaya see here:
Thanks bye!

http://www.atmajyoti.org/sw_q&a_reinc&karma.asp

http://www.atmajyoti.org/spirwrit-downloads.asp

[grammatoncleric]

Christianity and Reincarnation; food for thought

When it came to religion in the past that all of them taught the same thing in different appearences. I accepted that apart from christianity, it seemed the odd one out.

I believe that until I was exposed to Gnostic Christian Mystics Edgar Cayce, and Omraam Mikhael Aivanhov.

In a collection of his speeches in book form called Cosmic Moral Law, Omraam Mikhael Aivnhov, it has 4 chapters dedicated to linking christianity to reincarnation. Just a few snips from the chapters;

'On one occassion, when Jesus and his disciples met a man who was born blind, his disciples asked, ' Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents that he was born blind?' Why would anyone who did not believe in reincarnation ask such a ridiculous question? how could the man have sinned while he was still in his mother's womb? When could he have spent his night carousing? how did he manage to swindle others? Who did he murder? Either the question is absurd or it implies a belief in a previous existence.

Perhaps you will object that the disciples were simply fishermen who had never been to school, so they might well have asked some very strange questions. But if that had been the case in this instance, Jesus would have pointed it out to them. The Gospels tell of the several occasions on which Jesus reprimanded his disciple, but this not one of them.
... Jesus answered, therefore, 'Neither this man nor his parents sinned, but that the works of God should be revealed to him'.

There is alot more in the book.

Here is a section from a website about reincarnation evidence in the bible,

Here is pioneer Dr Ian Stevenson who Scientifically assesses children who claim to remember past lives.

[Sifu Stier]

Dear Marcus:

Before anyone gets too agitated by my presence here, I felt compelled to post a cameo appearance reply on this subject for those who were not raised from childhood with a strong Jewish, Christian, or Muslim background, since the example you refer to may indeed seem confusing for such individuals. As a Greek Orthodox Christian Deacon, I would like to clarify this issue.

The parable regarding the blind man, and the question it poses, does not refer to a belief in reincarnation, but refers instead to the ancient Jewish belief from the the Holy Scriptures of the Pentateuch, specifically Exodus 20:5 "...I, the Lord your God, AM a jealous God, visiting the sins of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generations of them that hate Me, yet showing Mercy unto thousands of them that love Me, and keep my Commandments."

Hence, the question to Jesus regarding who's sin was responsible for the man's blindness. Was it his own sins? Or the sins of his parents? Jesus assured everyone that neither the man nor his parents were to blame for a 'cause and effect' retribution of this man's blindness, but rather in order glorify God through his subsequent Divine Healing through Lord Jesus.

Sifu Stier

[Charles David]

Dear Sifu Stier,

I'm glad to know that even if you aren't posting regularly, that you are still listening at the window, so to speak.


Still,

[Zhang Wuji]

A quick post...

Obviously, as a Catholic, I follow the Church's official teachings on this. But when I read "Holy Blood, Holy Grail" and later "the Da Vinci Code" and their bold assertions / innuendos that Jesus was not born to a virgin, and was in fact married, I did not see a real problem.

Like the good drsanmat, my wonderful senior who is, other than Sifu, most responsible for my qigong attainment, I ask the question, so what if Jesus was married or Mother Mary was not a virgin. God made us to procreate through sex. Sex was His idea, and when not abused like people today do (with "free love" ie, casual sex), is a beautiful act that both unites and creates. The liberals here may have something to say about the homosexual person's right to sex, but I am still going to take my stand - sex is meant to to be enjoyed between a man and a woman, not a man and a man, a man and an animal or a man and a corpse. What I am saying is, there is nothing taboo about sex for the purpose it was designed.

The point is, Jesus' birth or Mother Mary's birth are really not important to me, once I had experienced their love and mercy for myself. If Jesus was married, does it change my belief that He did for me? If Mother Mary did sleep with Joseph after Jesus' birth, how does that change the sacrifice she made for God, a sacrifice that even Abraham was not required to follow through.

If one's faith can be shaken by inconsequential details or social conventions (that a non-virgin is dirty), then I can only say one's faith lacks the experiential touch of the divine.

[grammatoncleric]

Dear Sifu Stier,

It is probably better that you read the book because it goes further into detail and I don't do it justice by repeating it in a condensed form here. I understand there a several other books examining christian scriptures that point to reincarnation.

Hence, the question to Jesus regarding who's sin was responsible for the man's blindness. Was it his own sins? Or the sins of his parents? Jesus assured everyone that neither the man nor his parents were to blame for a 'cause and effect' retribution of this man's blindness, but rather in order glorify God through his subsequent Divine Healing through Lord Jesus.

After that excerpt from the book, he goes in into that very same explanation, that the man was born blind so that Jesus healed him so people could see the miracle.

He also goes into analysing that belief you accord to the Jewish faith.

Why is so difficult for me to articulate a viewpoint fully ?