Yang Style Masters and Variations

[MoMoJuice]

I have started this new topic to continue the "Chen-style Taijiquan" thread that was started by Wuji, but here we'll be talking more about the Yang Style and the different transmissions that certain lineages have received.

SifuStier wrote:

The first two generations of Yang Family Tai-Chi Chuan were known to have created, practiced, and taught at least three different Form Sets prior to the creation of third generation Yang Cheng-Fu's 'Improved Large Frame Set' which has become the Yang Family's Standard Set in recent decades.

Wuji wrote:

It is believed that Yang Banhou went the "fajing" route and Yang Jianhou the "sticking" route, and "neutralizing" route was taken by Quanyou.

These are very good points to highlight, as they are the reason why descendants and students who learned from Panhou, Jianhou, Shaohou, and Chengfu all may have styles, forms, force training methods, skills that are different from one another. We have this big (small?) difference in transmission even though what the students had learned was Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan directly from the Yang family masters themselves. Could it be said that the Yangs understood the essence of Tai Chi Chuan? As long as you follow the same principles and rules, practice diligently and correctly, the route that you take would not matter much. And you would achieve high levels of skill and mastery in the end.

beausimon wrote:

According to Wei Shuren, author of "The True Teachings of Yang Jianhou's Secret Yang Style Taijiquan", Wang Chonglu was taught a secret style by Yang JianHou. Could this be the secret style which Yang Luchan and his sons practiced?

Continuing from the point above, Yang Jianhou, like other Yang family members, had different emphasis and a preferred "personal" style that he practiced. The form that he had practiced and taught was not the same as his older brother's (Panhou) form. This is not to say that Jianhou's methods and form were worse than his bother's form, I'm just pointing out that there was some variation. And even though his form may have been softer, it had all the correct "energies", and it was not weaker martially.

Having said that, I do believe that the 1st and 2nd generation Yang family members taught a more standard "public" form. This was a good way to protect their family art, and also gives them time to do some screening for deserving students. From what I know, Wang Chonglu was a dedicated student that Jianhou liked and taught his personal style. Since Yang Jianhou did not teach many students his personal style, there would be a certain correctness when saying that Chonglu had learned a secret style.

Wuji wrote:

On Chang Yiu-Chun, I assume you are referring to Master Erle Montaigue's teacher. Well, according to him, "Chang Yiu Chun" may not have been his teacher's real name and to date, no one can authenticate this particular lineage. This is not to say I doubt what Master Montaigue is saying but as he states on his website, their relationship was not what we have commonly come to expect of a traditional martial arts school or family. From his own accounts on his website, they met by chance in Australia and simply trained together informally until Chang left just like that.

Yes, I was referring to him. The story that master Erle had mentioned about how he met his master is not really important. His master's name might not be the same name mentioned, but that is not important either. What is interesting though is that his website contains extensive information about a seemingly complete system of Tai Chi Chuan. By complete I mean that his system contains, what he calls the "Yang Luchan Old Form", Small Frame Form, Basic and Advanced Chi Kung, Push Hands, Da-lu, Small and Large San-Sau, Cannon Fist Form, and Dim-Mak Applications among many other things. There is no way master Erle could have "invented" all this stuff, as some people have claimed that this is what he had done. As to whether his system contains the "essence", then I don't know, as I have not learned from him. But I am curious to see his old Yang Luchan and Cannon Fist forms performed, that's why I was thinking of ordering a few DVD's from his website

Does that mean that Yang Jianhou and Yang Chengfu did not learn this lingkong jing and the fast form?

I do not know about lingkong jing, and as far as the fast form goes Yang Jianhou definitely learned it. Yang Chengfu did not practice as hard while his father Jianhou was still alive, so he may not have gained all the essence and the secrets that his father had to offer. One thing that is sure is that Yang Chengfu at first taught a style that was somewhat different from what he had taught later on after he made the modifications. Chen Wie Ming, who was an senior student of Chungfu, learned the older style but was also taught the newer version later on.

I recently came across the original form used by Yang Jianhou known as Lao Liulu (Old 6 routines), transmitted to Wang Yongquan, in a set of 7 books that describes in excruciating detail the training methods. The physical postures are the same as the Wu style Long form but the transitional movements are all different. By a stroke of coincidence, I saw a demonstration of this form by one of Wang Yongquan's descendants recently and indeed there was this ethereal quality about the form that did not resemble the other forms i had seen.

What you saw being practiced may be very similar to what Yang Jianhou practiced 100 years ago, you should check and see if they practice real Tai Chi Chuan and if they have the whole "secret" system preserved and not just the external form. And this reminds me, seeing Sifu perform Grasping Sparrows Tail last year was enough, and my jaw almost dropped to the floor. When Sifu performed the pattern, it wasn't him anymore, and there was a certain quality that I had not seen before. My lowly mind can't explain it or express it, so I'll just stop here

beausimon wrote:

Wang Yongquan happens to be the son of Wang Chonglu and the teacher of Wei Shuren. Incidentally, there are another two Wangs, Wang Yennien and Wang Dianchen who claims to have inherited secret Yang transmissions. I had seen a demonstration by Wang Yennien and Wang Dianchen. Their styles were not the same, so it looks like the Yang's passed different secret styles to different people.

Wang Yennien (1914-200?) was a student of Zhang Qinlin, Zhang was a student of Yang Jianhou, and he was said to also have learned a secret style. Zhang had great ability in Tai Chi Chuan, Chen Manching was easily defeated by Zhang when they competed. Wang was said to be the only person (in the 60's) in Taiwan who could hold his own against Cheng Manching. I do believe that this lineage is also correct when saying that they practice a more "true" style of Tai Chi Chuan. As for master Wang Dianchen, I have not heard of him.

Wuji wrote:

Just a disclaimer - just about everything I have written here (except the para immediately above) is second-hand, so please take it with a pinch of salt. I am only writing these things so that someone more qualified can correct any errors I have committed in my research.

I like the information that you have posted, I think it is very correct, and I'm impressed with how much you know Wuji.

Thank you Sifu Stier and Wuji for the information, it is always a pleasure to learn fron your great knowledge and wisdom.

Respectfully,
MoMo.

[Sifu Stier]

The Unbroken Circle!

The great masters of the past certainly imprinted the performance of the Form Sets with their own unique personalities, but within the parameters of an easily recognized, standardized 'style'. This is still the case among fellow practitioners of the same style today. Each of us adds a bit of our own personality to the movements, but within a range of interpretation which is still readily identifiable as Yang Style, Chen Style, and so forth.

Thus, the preference of a particular master to practice and teach a 'large frame set' or a 'small frame set' is often irrelevant since both lead to the same end. In this way, similarly, the emphasis placed on a particular skill such as 'neutralizing', 'sticking', or 'issuing' may also be seen as expressions of individual personality. Be assured. however, that these skills were highly developed by all of the masters who have been mentioned by name here. By varying degrees, each man may have been more talented in one of these energy skills than others were, but each possessed expert abilities with all of the skills in question. This holds true for the genuine masters of today, too!

The 'neutralizing', 'sticking', and 'issuing' energies are really only varying expressions of the same energy at different places on an unbroken circle. The ability to properly interpret an opponent's energy in order to evade the power and speed of his attack, allowing no place for it to be applied, is the 'neutralizing' skill.

Following the movement and the momentum of the attack around a circle back to where its energy started from with at least one hand on the opponents body at all times after initial contact is the 'sticking' skill.

Once this circle has been completed, the attack will have been 'neutralized', its energy and power and momentum will have been followed back to its starting point by 'sticking', thus allowing the circle to be completed by returning the energy and momentum of the attack to the opponent and releasing it, or 'issuing' it back to them.

All of these things happen automatically and spontaneously as part of an unbroken circle of defense and counter-attack!

[Zhang Wuji]

The Fast or Usage Form

I think there is still much potential in this thread.

For this post, I want to talk about the fast form. I was quite delighted when this came up because hitherto it was a very well-kept secret, and though I have not seen the real fast form being performed in full before, I have seen what I think are imitations. In my Taijiquan school, demonstrating the usage form in public is punishable by expulsion, so I guess this secret must have been really well-preserved.

But since that rule was instituted, 3 very authoritative books on this form have been recently published in China (and one with less authority). To my great delight, I obtained the third one today after a fortuitous search (I already have the other two). While i have no experience of this form, I can extract the interesting stuff from the books for this thread. The books were published by the master of the school's grandmaster and his shidi (zhi?).

The form as described in the books is from Wu Tunan, one of the most famous of the Chinese Taijiquan grandmasters, who is relatively unknown in the West. He was one of the few disciples of Yang Shaohou who specialised in this form and lingkong jing.

As was said in another book, the fast or usage form is not the standard form done quickly. In fact, the physical postures are very different, but the great difference is internal. The form can only be attempted after a very high level of qigong has been attained, and this includes mastery of embryonic breathing. For the form to work, the exponent must also be able to use lingkong jing or empty force (the term popularised by Mr Paul Dong). Many people can and have learnt the physical form but it is obvious the execution was not done according to the principles.

One easy way to tell is the speed and agility of the demonstration. The form must be done in less than 3 minutes, and the exponent must dart from place to place almost faster than the eye can follow. The full demonstration I saw took 5 minutes and had a fair bit of muscular effort.

Actually, I think that Sifu's demonstration of the Dragon Strength Set is the quintessential example of how the fast form should be performed. In that demo, Sifu's movements were so fast that they were blurred and after a while, no one could see where they began and ended. For those who have not seen it, it is here. Sifu's demo also underscores the basic principle in the fast form that the qi must move the body. Also, one of the training methods in the fast form is to be able to hold incredibly tiring and low stances for sustained periods which is certainly something the Shaolin Wahnam Kungfu students can identify with when doing the Horse stance

[Zhang Wuji]

Let me stop talking about the fast form and instead about the earlier posts about the 3 types of jing - explosive lingkong jing, sticking jing and neutralising jing.

I appreciate StierSifu's comment that all masters exhibit all 3 skills to some degree but any individual master may emphasise one over the rest.

I would like to share, however, my experience with a Taijiquan master from Beijing I met only yesterday. It was by sheer coindence that my Taijiquan seniors and I could meet this very esteemed master (whom I will not name for he wants his privacy). Suffice to say that he is descended from Wang Yongquan (Yang Jianhou's old style) and Yang Yuting (the famous Wu2 style master).

Some of us had the great honour of pushing hands with him, while others like me who have not learnt push hands yet stood one side. He was reluctant to let most of us touch him because of the effect it may have on us. I was wondering what he meant until I saw him toying with my instructor like he was a puppet on strings. Once their hands made contact, the other person was held fast and the more he struggled the further he was thrown. If he did not resist, the master would just lead him anywhere through that minimal skin contact. They tried touching him lightly on the tummy, the neck, the ear. It was all the same. Each one who tried was stuck to a powerful magnet. It was fascinating to watch. This was the sticking jing that Yang Jianhou was famous for, and which I mentioned in my earlier posts.

Earlier, the old master who was about 80 plus gave a 2 hour monologue. He said a lot and i don't have time to record everything down here. But it was notable that at 80, he had bright eyes and perfect hearing (he could hear me asking my questions from across the table over background music and in a different Chinese accent from his).

One thing I must share here is a point he made about the health benefits of the various styles. He made the point that Yang and Chen stylists were comparatively less likely to live long lives (an assertion backed by historical observation - Yang Banhou, Chen Zhaokui/Zhaopei etc). The reason is the fajing tendencies of these styles which tend to injure the internal organs. I came across this point before in a book "Esoteric Warriors" but could not verify it. The Wu2 style however focuses on neutralising (hua4) or redirecting the enemy's force and does not shock the body with explosive emission. I cannot perform fajing myself but I understand that it involves the whole body acting as one unit with the qi from the dantian (and from the ground, according to some schools) exploding into the enemy.

I would like to hear from our Shaolinquan exponents on this since I think among others, One Finger Zen requires the practitioner to send qi or energy out of the finger several times. But I am quite sure the effect on one's own body is not the same as the apparently damaging effects of fajing.

The most interesting thing i learnt is that the training principles and methods of mastering this master's powers of sticking jing were exactly the same as what Shaolin Wahnam and my Taijiquan school teaches - relax, do not use strength, move from the waist, basically every principle most of us have already come across. So, how is it that the same principles can lead to different kinds of power? Or is there something at the higher levels that leads to different paths?

Whatever the case, I am convinced the old master was not hiding anything - he is in fact on a crusade to prevent Taijiquan from slipping into a debased dance form, something which Sifu fervently believes in and fights for as well. But he did say (and Antonius would agree, I am sure): 道可道非常道 and a lot he wanted to say could simply not be expressed.

[MoMoJuice]

Hi there,

Sifu Stier wrote:

Thus, the preference of a particular master to practice and teach a 'large frame set' or a 'small frame set' is often irrelevant since both lead to the same end.

Really? I had thought that a small frame set may be better suited for people who are interested in self defense, and so for that purpose it would be better than say a large frame set.

Here is a quote that I read somewhere: "Moreover, to achieve mastery, one seeks the compact. From large circles come small circles; from small circles come no circles. This is what is called "unroll it, and it fills the universe; roll it up, and it retires and lies hid in mysteriousness." (thank you laoshi)

Wuji wrote:

One easy way to tell is the speed and agility of the demonstration. The form must be done in less than 3 minutes, and the exponent must dart from place to place almost faster than the eye can follow. The full demonstration I saw took 5 minutes and had a fair bit of muscular effort.

I've read about this Yang Shaohou fast form in Peter Lim's (great) Tai Chi Chuan resource page, sadly that website seems to be gone now. It mentioned that Yang Shaohou performed it in less than three minutes, with a grim smile on his face, and darting from one spot to the other.

Check out the videos on this website: http://www.taijizlin.cz/texty/ruzne.htm

The first list of videos are by master Vincent Chu, son of master Gin Soon Chu. Grandmaster Chu is one of the only few (4?) disciples of Yang Sau-chung, the oldest son of Yang Chungfu. He is also the only disciple (of Sau-chung) from this lineage who is teaching in the U.S. He's been teaching in the U.S for a long time, maybe Sifu Stier has had a chance of meeting him? Their lineage seems to have a fast form (there is a short video there), but I'm guessing that it's not the same as the Yang Shaohou fast form.

Back to the videos, if you scroll to the buttom of the page, you'll see some videos of Cheng Man-Ching, download them all, they are interesting

There is a Yang Panhou form there too, it's the 15MB file that is called "xiaojia, sabre and paochui". After downloading the file, skip the first 2 minutes, cause that's when the Yang Panhou Pao Chui form starts.

Wuji, I'm not sure if this Panhou form has any similarity with the Shaohou form that you saw (part of), but at least you can watch it and compare. And Sifu Stier, you can watch it and compare with the Yang Panhou fast form from your lineage I'm very interested to know how similar or different all those forms are.

Actually, I think that Sifu's demonstration of the Dragon Strength Set is the quintessential example of how the fast form should be performed. In that demo, Sifu's movements were so fast that they were blurred and after a while, no one could see where they began and ended.

That's an amazing demonstration by Sifu, I'm sure the people watching were in shock. But when I had first watched it, I really wished it wasn't so blurred.

I would like to share, however, my experience with a Taijiquan master from Beijing I met only yesterday. It was by sheer coindence that my Taijiquan seniors and I could meet this very esteemed master (whom I will not name for he wants his privacy).

That is very interesting Wuji. And I get from your post that this master and his students may not want to teach just anyone they meet. Do you think you would have a chance to learn from him? If you do learn something, then you have to teach me someday

The most interesting thing i learnt is that the training principles and methods of mastering this master's powers of sticking jing were exactly the same as what Shaolin Wahnam and my Taijiquan school teaches - relax, do not use strength, move from the waist, basically every principle most of us have already come across. So, how is it that the same principles can lead to different kinds of power? Or is there something at the higher levels that leads to different paths?

I would like to know the answer to that too. Maybe you can ask Sifu about it, so that we might get an answer for that on his (great) Q&A series.

I know that many of you have already checked this website, but for those who haven't, you can read about Wang Chonglu, his son Wang Yongquan, and some Tai Chi Chuan principles at (again) Jarek Szymanski's excellent web page: http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/taiji/weishuren1.html

As always, thank you for sharing your wisdom and knowledge Sifu Stier and Wuji, I enjoyed reading your posts very much. Take care.

Respectfully,
MoMo.

[Sifu Stier]

Comparing Apples and Oranges!

The Form Set demonstrated in the video clip from the link posted here is not the same Set as the Yang Pa-Hou Small Frame Set. It is different both in its sequential arrangement and list of postures, as well as different in its stylistic appearance in the interpretation of the postures.

What was shown in the video clip looks to me more like a Large Frame Set performed at a faster speed, and with somewhat smaller circles, but not at all like the true Small Frame Sets!

[Sifu Stier]

Principles not Patterns!

In response to previous posts by others, it should be said that practicing with proper internal 'feeling' of the Forms is more important than the sequential arrangement of the postures, or the stylistic external appearance or 'signature look' of any particular style. This is true of all Internal Styles of martial arts. It is a prime agenda priority in all such methods to acquire an 'internal feeling' of the Foundation Principles of Soft/Internal Boxing as the fastest and most efficient path to mastery. Once such 'feeling' is experientially understood though much practice, any style or set of forms which employs the same principles both internally and externally can be quickly learned and performed with expertise.

Secondly, it has been most common in the past, and remains so now, that the best Masters of Chinese Internal Boxing Arts are the older generation of Masters still alive today. The vast majority of these Masters have not lived in China for more than 50 years, due to an inhospitable political environment, and most prefer an old fashioned 'Secret Brotherhood' manner of practicing and teaching their Arts. It has been my experience that the most skilled teachers are quite often those that nobody has even heard of before, or that their reputation is public knowledge, but they choose to live in seclusion to pursue their spiritual self-cultivation and to avoid the scrutinization of others. They rarely teach anyone, if ever, and may be quite inaccessible to anyone other than family and close personal associates.

Lastly, I laughed when I read about people accusing Sifu Montaigue of inventing his entire system. I have had would be detractors make similar accusation of me and the Shen Men Tao System. I know that they meant to invalidate both me and the System in making such statements, but it really made me think about how much true genius it would require to actually invent such complete systems of kung-fu. I couldn't even imagine it! I thought to myself....."boy, they must think that I am a really smart and talented guy to have invented all of this material". Having been down the arduous path to mastering the Shen Men Tao material, I can clearly recall that it was all I could do to learn it from repeated viewings of my Master's performance.

Inventing these methods seems impossible to me, except perhaps through 'Divine Inspiration' or 'Spiritual Illumination'. How often does that happen to most of us? But I guess it could come around. After all, miracles do happen every day! All around us...everywhere! So why not be open minded about it?

[MoMoJuice]

Dear Sifu Stier,

The Form Set demonstrated in the video clip from the link posted here is not the same Set as the Yang Pa-Hou Small Frame Set.

This is what I had thought, but I had to check just to be sure. The internet is filled with lots of information, lots of it is wrong or bad, and some of it is correct and good. We have to figure out which is which.

it should be said that practicing with proper internal 'feeling' of the Forms is more important than the sequential arrangement of the postures, or the stylistic external appearance or 'signature look' of any particular style. This is true of all Internal Styles of martial arts.

Thank you for the illuminating words and advice, I think (hope) that I know what you mean by having the proper internal feeling. I believe the daily practice of high level Chi Kung such as what we learn in Shaolin Wahnam is an excellent way to develop and "know" this feeling. I know it helped me with my Tai Chi Chuan practice, and I'm sure many others here feel the same way.

I laughed when I read about people accusing Sifu Montaigue of inventing his entire system.

I'm sure Erle Montaigue is a real master, and that he had learned from a real master too. But there are a few things that I'm not sure about. For example, Sifu Montaigue stresses the importance that Tai Chi Chuan students should use protective gear when sparring. He says that this is the only way students will become combat effective in a real fighting situation. Past masters did not use protective gear, and they did not need to kill their Kung Fu brothers either to reach high levels of skill. I was a bit disappointed, after I had found out that he had posted a few posts on this forum, and when the Shaolin Wahnam instructors pointed out some mistakes in his teaching, he decided to leave.

After all, miracles do happen every day! All around us...everywhere! So why not be open minded about it?

This is very true, and well said

Respectfully,
MoMo.

[Sifu Stier]

The Gloves Are Off!

Yo, yo, MoMo!

There are other Tai-Chi Chuan Masters who have their students wear protective equipment, boxing gloves, head gear, etc. for sparring with full-contact. One example is Master William C.C. Chen of NYC, New York, who has done this for several decades at his school.

I believe that there is some value to overcoming the fear of getting hit with full-contact force by training in this way, but aside from that it is difficult for me to see much real benefit in it. Sensitivity of touch for feeling changes in the opponents use of speed, power, direction of movement, etc., and the ability to both receive energy and discharge energy from the hands and fingers is pretty much eliminated when one is wearing boxing gloves, Safe-T-Chop, or other hand coverings. The sparring is thus reduced to a comparison of external power and technique, with little or no internal aspect to the fighting. I am not saying that those Masters who choose to train their students in this way are wrong to do so, as there may very well be benefits in such training that I am unaware of. However, most Masters do not use these training methods for the reasons mentioned earlier.

No such equipments are ever used in the Shen Men Tao System as we are more interested in developing skills which do not depend on overwhelming an opponent with superior strength and power, superior speed, superior tactics, and so forth. Superior sensitivity, alertness, and 'feeling' are the agenda priorities instead.

[PhilH]

Hi MoMoJuice,

When I trained with Erle's association (WTBA) we used strike pads to practise full power punching and kicking. Another way of practising this is to spar with body armour. The techniques are meant to disable or kill your opponent, so cannot be fully employed without protection. We actually spent only a small amount of time using pads.

There were naturally great differences in the opinions of the Wahnam instructors and Erle. The discussions on the forum were cordial and respectful, and in the end they agreed to disagree. Erle did not leave because he was offended by having the errors of his ways pointed out.

Erle's instructors and senior students have great internal power, and do not rely on brute force. Have a look at his website - it contains masses of information about taiji and qigong.

Taiji World

I know of a Wahnam member who regularly travels from Holland to attend Erle's monthly seminars in Swansea, as well as to train with Sifu Wong when he is in Europe. It would be interesting to read his views!

[MoMoJuice]

Dear PhilH,

When I trained with Erle's association (WTBA) we used strike pads to practise full power punching and kicking.

This is a method employed by boxers all over the world, as you said, it is used to practice full power punching and to increase "external" striking power. Though you may be talking about issuing internal force (Fajin) on the pads or bags, if that is the case, then I'm assuming that Sifu Erle has a method(s) to develop and build this force. A person usually needs a few years of Chi Kung and Zhan Zhuang practice before being able to Fajin correctly, otherwise striking the pads will only be using pure external strength.

Both Sifu Wong and my teacher here stress the importance of practicing static stances as a method to develop internal force (there are other methods). Please correct me if I'm wrong, Sifu Erle and his students do not do any stance training, and on his website, he says that internal force can only develop if a person "fasts" from time to time, the longer he fasts the better. It's a new concept to me, as I haven't heard or read about this anywhere else.

The discussions on the forum were cordial and respectful, and in the end they agreed to disagree.

I'm glad that it ended in a rescpectful manner, I hope he decides topost here again in the future.

I know of a Wahnam member who regularly travels from Holland to attend Erle's monthly seminars in Swansea, as well as to train with Sifu Wong when he is in Europe. It would be interesting to read his views!

Yes, it would be nice to hear his experiences learning both systems.

I've been thinking of ordering a few of Sifu Erle's videos, I'm really interested to see how his Old Yang Lu Chan and the cannon fist forms look like.

Thank you for sharing Phil

Respectfully,
MoMo.

[Antonius]

When I trained with Erle's association (WTBA) we used strike pads to practise full power punching and kicking. Another way of practising this is to spar with body armour. The techniques are meant to disable or kill your opponent, so cannot be fully employed without protection.

What do you think would happen if sihing Kai and I put on pads and then went at it full power?

The whole point of internal force is to penetrate beneath the surface. That's why it can be used against things like Iron Shirt. That's why you can target the breast plate and do massive damage even without breaking the bone (the heart is right behind it). That's why you can break the bottom (and not the top) of two bricks.

Also, without meaning to be disrespectful, I feel that anyone who encourages full-contact sparring knows very little about Chinese medicine. The ramifications of taking blows -- even blows without internal force -- are quite serious and should not be ignored. To give you an example, it's been 8 years since I've done full-contact sparring in Karate, but I'm still overcoming blockages from those blows.

I'm not saying that Erle's way is wrong; he's a grandmaster and he's entitled to his opinions and his methods. But it's definitely not my way, and I won't teach my students like that.

[PhilH]

Hi Antonius,

Your point about the effects of internal force on even a protected body is very appropriate. Clip 169.WMV shows a strike with internal force on a wooden man, and Erle talks about the tone or vibration of an internal strike penetrating the wood.

http://j-zone.org/erle/

I never did any full contact in my class. One of the guys was an ex Australia tae kwondo international, another ex-English international amateur boxer, and another a semi-pro kick boxer who once split open a motor bike helmet with a single punch when being attacked. I think you'd need more than body to survive their attacks!

[Zhang Wuji]

Hi Stier Sifu

following your post below, I thought it may be helpful to extract some of your earlier posts

Apparently......I am not only Invisible here......but some folks don't remember what I posted previously either!

I have repeatedly stated on this and other Forum Threads that the 'Old Yang Long Imperial 108 Forms Set' is taught in the Shen Men Tao System as part of the Standard Curriculum.

And yet...regular contributors to these Threads continue to post the opinion that nobody teaches this older Set anymore except Sifu Erle Montaigue. This simply IS NOT true! I have personally practiced the 'Long Imperial 108 Set' for the past 40+ years.....and have taught it to others for 30 years this month.....beginning in June of 1975.

Back then.....it was the most commonly encountered Tai-Chi Chuan Forms Set of any style worldwide.....primarily so popular due to the huge reputation of the 1st and 2nd Generations of Yang Family Masters who created...practiced...and taught this Set. They were considered the best of the best in the Tai-Chi Chuan world of their day.....and so most enthusiasts wanted to learn and practice the same Sets that they did.

The traditional style of performance of the 'Old Yang Long Imperial 108 Forms Set' reflects its Chen Style Lao-Jia roots in the overall sequential arrangement of the Form Set.....as well as in its lower stances and more difficult legwork.....the inclusion of Fa-Jing techniques and changes of speed at Advanced Levels of practice.....and so forth.

Most of these features are absent from Yang Cheng-Fu's 'Modified Large Frame 88 Forms Set' which has become the Official Yang Family Standard Set following World War II. Yang Family Masters in recent decades have even officially denied the existence of some of the older generation of Yang Style Sets.....insisting that Yang Cheng-Fu's 'Modified Large Frame 88 Set' is the ONLY legitimate Yang Style Tai-Chi Chuan Set. This also is quite simply NOT true!

The extracts:

Yes. As stated elsewhere here....the Old Yang Large Frame Long Imperial 108 Forms Set....and the Yang Pan-Hou Small Frame Fast Forms Set.....both incorporate fa-jing in the performance of the obvious kicking and striking techniques. And in fighting application.....even 'defensive' methods such as Seizing and Controlling (chin-na) and Throwing/Tripping/Sweeping methods (shuai-fa) may potentially employ fa-jing in their execution.

The Large Frame Long Imperial 108 Forms Set does so only after the entire Set is completely learned....corrected....and refined to proper Standard while performing slowly and softly.....in order to insure that the student's body usage doesn't become too muscular and 'hard'.

Since the Small Frame Fast Form Set is only taught to advanced students who have already completed the process of learning...correcting...and refining the Large Frame Long Imperial Set.....they generally do not develop such qualitatively incorrect usage of the body when practicing the fa-jing methods in either Set.

Those of us who were fortunate enough to learn from Masters who received their Art from the designers and creators of these older form sets are practicing the same material....with the same manner or style of performance....as the older generations did. As such.....the potential to obtain the same benefits and skills from practicing are a viable reality. For us.....the Past is Present.....in the direct transmission of these Arts to us!
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Not all Yang-Chia Tai-Chi Chuan is practiced without Fa-Jing. The Form Sets created by the Founder, Yang Lu-Chan, and his sons, Yang Pan-Hou and Yang Chien-Hou, are practiced with obvious Fa-Jing application in much the same way as the 'Old Frame/Lao-Jia' Chen Style Form Sets from which they derive.

In the 'Long Imperial 108 Forms Large Frame Set'.....this is especially true of those postures expressing overt kicking and punching techniques....such as 'Step Forward to Deflect, Parry and Punch' and 'Turn to Kick with Heel'. Many of the older generation of practitioners.....mostly deceased or long since retired from teaching now.....will even employ Fa-Jing in performing postures like 'Press Forward of Grasp Bird's Tail'...or 'Brush Knee and Twist Step'. In each instance...there is a sudden increase in speed and power issued forth on these postures....followed by a return to the softer...slower fluidity of movement preceding the Fa-Jing. My Sifu has stated repeatedly over the years that this was how Yang Chien-Hou and his son...Yang Shao-Hou...performed the Long Imperial Form Set as a normal course of practice.

The 'Small Frame Combined Styles Fast Set' of Yang Pan-Hou is replete with Fa-Jing......manifested in virtually every striking or kicking posture posture throughout the routine. Both of these older Sets....Large Frame and Small Frame alike.....also employ more obvious circularity and spiral 'silk reeling' energy than the modified modern Sets of Yang Cheng-Fu...and its derivatives.....which are normally performed only softly and slowly throughout.

Threads: Chinese-Gov-created Tai Chi and Tai Chi principles & Core differences between Shaolinquan and Taijiquan

Some quick points:

1) Among the "orthodox" Yang family teaching Yang-style Taijiquan, as represented by Yang Zhenduo and Zhao Youbin, the Yang Chengfu form is gospel truth. They have stated publicly that this is the only form they teach and they have not changed Yang Chengfu's form at all. I can supply the references but I don't have the books with me, so if you trust me, just take it that they said this in so many words.
It is not true that the Yang-style descendants do not teach the Yang Luchan form, only that the teachers may not have the surname Yang.

2) One reason why Mr Montaigue's name is mentioned all the time in relation to the Yang Luchan form is because he uses that term. Not many realise that the Yang Banhou form is the same as that of his father. Many assume a difference, and rightly so, since Yang Jianhou did practice a different form. His was known to be a gentler, flowing style closer to Yang Chengfu's final form than his father's "fajing" form. I think, to be clear, Yang Banhou's form is for all intents and purposes, Yang Luchan's form.

My Sifu has stated repeatedly over the years that this was how Yang Chien-Hou and his son...Yang Shao-Hou...performed the Long Imperial Form Set as a normal course of practice

I would not dare to dispute Grandmaster Lee on this, but I would like to present some additional information. Yang Shaohou was the son of Yang Jianhou but his teacher was Yang Banhou. This factoid comes down from both written and oral tradition in my school. In other publications, it has been said that Yang Shaohou was much like Yang Banhou in skill and temperament.

Yang Jianhou's form as I have seen it is certainly slow throughout but I am quite sure that in his early days, before he formalised it, he must have done it the way his father taught it - fast with slow, and with fajing. As I said earlier, the form I did see being demonstrated had this distinctive "sticking" nature. The master I met, a descendant from Wang Yongquan, a student of Yang Jianhou had this marvellous ability to cause his opponent to stick to him. Wang Yongquan, as both he and his student Wei Shuren wrote in their books, never learned fajing from Yang Shaohou although he wanted to, but he learnt everything from Yang Jianhou the former's father. Yet the form passed down from this lineage does not have fajing. This suggests that even if Yang Jianhou did his own form with fajing, he did not incorporate this in his own style of the form.

This is why I say that Yang Luchan's form has generally been split into 3 types: the fajing (Yang Banhou/ Shaohou lineage), the sticking (Yang Jianhou) and the neutralising (Wu Quanyou). As far as I am concerned, the Yang Chengfu form is not a marital form, but an excellent entry-level form to learn the basics. Fajing is certainly not basic - one year after beginning the form, I have not been exposed to fajing yet. But the basics of "moving from the centre, all parts moving together, using the mind not muscles, yinyang" etc are crucial before you want to use fajing. Hence I am personally in no hurry to start fajing if my instructor thinks I am not ready. Try fajing too early, and it will only be some muscular force disguised as a fajing movement.

The 'Secret Style', if any, is in my humble opinion the 'Small Frame, Small Circle, Fast Form Set'. Among the various Form Sets known to have been created, practiced and taught by the first and second generations of the Yang Family, the 'Fast Form Set' is certainly and by far the least known and least often taught or even demonstrated of all the Sets to date.

Supreme efforts were exerted to make the 'Imperial Long Form Set' a superior exercise which would produce superior training results for the Imperial Prince, since any disappointment in anything presented to the Royals could be a personal disaster even for the Yangs. It proved to be a superb style which pleased the Prince immensely, endearing the Yangs to him, and resulting in Yang Lu-Chan's appointment as Head of the 'Divine Skills Battallion'. This is the Set which Sifu Yang taught to the Imperial Bodyguard as well. After the fall of the Imperial Dynasty system of government, it is the Form Set that was most widely taught by the Yangs in their 'public' Tai-Chi classes. It is estimated that a greater number of people have been taught Yang's Imperial Long Form 108 Set than any other single Tai-Chi Chuan Form Set.

The 'Small Frame Set', in contrast, is probably the least widely taught Tai-Chi Chuan Form Set of all the different Sets of every Tai-Chi Style. This is understandable as this Set represents the epitome of the Yang Family Tai-chi Chuan genius. It combines the best ideas and the best methods of the best Masters of the era in which it was created. The cumulative genius and insights of Chen Chang-Hsing, Yang Lu-Chan, Wu Yi-Hsiang, Chen Ching-Ping (Wu's Teacher), and the Yang brothers, Pan-Hou and Chien-Hou, were all blended together to create this 'Reserved Set'. It was compiled for personal, 'closed door' only, private family training practice, and was never intended to be a Set which would be taught at the public group classes. And in fact, since it combines the 'stylistic interpretation' of several separate styles within one routine, it is not a Form Set that a beginner to advanced level practitioner would even be capable of performing correctly. It is truly a 'Master Set', created and designed by Masters for practice by Masters of Master Grade methods and material! It is a humbling routine to learn, but one which leaves those who know it in awe of the total expertise and mastery that went into its creation!

Thread - Chen-style Taijiquan

3) For those who have forgotten about the distinction between the Long form and the Small/Secret/Fast/Usage set, the above is reproduced. I have seen Erle Montaigue's Yang Luchan Long form and it is NOT the one referred to above. The small/fast form remains unvailable for public viewing though as I said earlier, 3 books have been published on it. But I do not think the writers exposed anything. The pictures will never convey the majesty of the form itself, or so I am told since I have never witnessed the full form. StierSifu has said that he was taught and practises the form so I would be grateful if he could tell us more about it.

Yang Cheng-Fu's 88 Forms Set.....the so-called 'Improved Large Frame Set' created in the 1930's prior to his death.....and the 'Large Frame Long Imperial 108 Forms Set' created by his Grandfather Yang Lu-Chan prior to his death in 1872.....are in fact two totally different Sets. The connection is Yang Cheng-Fu's editing and modification of the older Set to create his 'Improved Large Frame Set'.....although practitioners of the 'Long Imperial Set' generally do not consider the newer set an improvement! Master Cheng-Fu not only eliminated some postures contained in the older set.....as well as eliminating some of the repetitions of postures.....but also advocated a uniquely different 'stylistic interpretation' or style of performance for his 88 Forms Set. The 'Long Imperial Set' employs 'fa-jing' methods for the kicks and punches.....which are completely absent from Cheng-Fu's set. There are numerous other differences which I will not elaborate on now.....but be assured that these are separate Sets!

- Thread: somewhere to discuss things in a friendly way
4) Following from para 2, what then is the difference between Yang Chengfu's form and Yang Luchan/Banhou's form if the postures are similar, other than the fact that one has fajing and the other does not? First, the mere fact of fajing does not make the sets all that different. I mean, the Shaolin Bagua set can be performed slowly as well as fast with explosive movements. I would see it this way - the older form can be performed the same way as the Yang Chengfu form but the converse is not true. It is like a higher version of MS Word, only in reverse. Someone who can do the Yang Luchan form well can easily do the Yang Chengfu form well, but someone who only knows the Yang Chengfu form can never do the higher form, although if he has learnt his Yang Chengfu form well, it would be easier to pick up the advanced form. In his old age, Chen Changxing was said to practice his form in a slow and relaxed manner much unlike what he taught Yang Luchan. Your Taijiquan form changes with you, with your age, with your attainment and your skills. But if you are tied to a fixed notion of what the form must be, then you will never move on. I am sure that Yang Luchan himself changed his form to a more Yang Chengfu style as he grew into his 70s.

I have loads more to say but I sincerely believe I am most unqualified to comment more. In fact, some of my posts seem to have this somewhat categorical quality which is out of place, and I apologise for that. I can only say I have my own opinions which I have formed independently but I realise that they can certainly be wrong.

[Zhang Wuji]

Oh, and this is from Master Wong Doc-Fai's column:

In the March 2004 issue, I talked about choy li fut’s jing or ging. I mentioned that I learned my fa-jing from choy li ful kung-fu, not from tai chi. Some people think that I put fa-jing into choy li fut, because most other choy li fut practitioners don’t show jing when they do their forms. When they see me using jing, they believe my tai chi training might have become mixed with choy li fut and that now I am doing a chop suey kung-fu!

They wonder if my choy li fut style is still pure. I pointed out that Yang tai chi players don’t do fa-jing. I wrote: ”As most tai chi practitioners know, Yang tai chi does not practice fa-jing.” Right away a couple of readers fired off e-mails, insisting that Yang tai chi does indeed use fa-jing. They mentioned a tai chi instructor from Australia who wrote that fa-jing is part of Yang tai chi. They were concerned that I had misled my readers: therefore I want to clarify the issue here.

Yes, the Yang family has fa-jing training. When I wrote my last column (entitled “Jing in Choy Li Fut”) I was focused on choy li fut kung-fu. I didn’t want to get side-tracked into a complete discussion of tai chi. What I wanted to communicate is that most people who practice Yang tai chi are not supposed to show any fa-jing in the form practice. This is because very few Yang tai chi players practice the small circle form. This also holds true for other styles of tai chi (with the notable exception of Chen style).

Let me explain. Fa-jing is for martial arts training. However, 95 percent of those learning Yang tai chi do it for health and relaxation, not for fighting. Today, a vast majority of Yang style instructors are not trained for fa-jing. The fa-jing training of the Yang family is not taught using the regular forms most people practice. The Yang family has another form the fast form, also called the small circle form — that is specifically for fa-jing training. I teach that form to my students once they have mastered the regular forms. But aside from the instructors I teach in the Plum Blossom International Federation, few tai chi instructors learn the fast form today.

In ancient times, fa-jing was not taught to outsiders of the Yang family. Therefore, the teachers of today’s instructors had never learned fa-jing and could not have taught it. If a modern-day instructor knows fa-jing, he probably got it from other martial arts training. Besides the lineage of my teacher, Dr. Hu Yuen Chou, other great teachers of tai chi such as Fu Zhong Wen, Dong Ying Jie, Yang Zhen Duo, and Cheng Man Ching didn’t show fa-jing in their forms. Has anyone seen the Chinese contemporary Yang 24 form, the 40 form and the 88 form with fa-jing? Please let me know (of course, not counting the videos from the Australian instructor).

And, it’s not only the Yang tai chi style that doesn’t show fa-jing in the form. The Guang Ping Yang style, Wu, and Sun styles of tai chi (as well as some other branches) don’t show fa-jing. The Chen style is the exception. That doesn’t mean those tai chi styles have no fa-jing teaching for their closed- door disciples. When tai chi is taught for fighting then fa-jing training is essential. I am sure that all advanced tai chi levels have fa-jing training.

Forty-five years ago when I was a tai chi student, I saw no one from Chen or Yang style that could show me fa-jing. That was what I meant to say in my previous column. I wish that this Australian Yang tai chi instructor was around when I was learning to show me his Yang fa-jing. I could have learned it from him. I wish I had met him 45 years ago. Where was he at that time?

The point is, regular Yang forms, when practiced, should not be done with fa-jing. That’s not the same as saying that the Yang family didn’t teach fa-jing.

In the old days, no family names divided tai chi into different styles. From Yang Lu Chan to Yang Cheng Fu, only one name was used: tai chi chuan. When Yang Cheng Fu promoted tai chi and it became popular, Wu Jian Quan started to call his style Wu tai chi. Now when we talk about Yang tai chi, we are talking about Yang Cheng Fu’s teaching. The teaching style of Yang tai chi in Australia might very well have come from the Yang family, but it is not what most people practice in China. However, I am happy that in Australia there is an instructor who is able to promote the real essence of tai chi chuan (that is to say as a fighting martial art). I also want my readers to understand I was not misleading them, because regular Yang tai chi forms should be practiced without fa-jing.

http://www.plumblossom.net/Articles/Inside_Kung-Fu/July2004/index.html

NB: He must have been talking about Mr Erle Montaigue....