Mind Training

[Dan]

Let go of That!

Non-thought is not thought or no-thought.

For example; I think of a book, this is thought, then I empty my mind, this is no-thought. Non-thought comes before the thought or no-thought process arises.

But, from another perspective, non-thought can both be thought or no-thought, and can occur during, before or after these processes.

Non-thought transcends dualistic thinking, whereas thought and no-thought are still dualistic.

No-thought is still in the realm of attachment to phenomena, let go of ‘that’ and achieve non-thought.

As one famous Zen master said “You still have that!”

There is a detailed, but concise, explanation in the Platform Sutra by the 6th Patriarch Hui Neng, and there is also excellent commentary by Sifu in the Complete Book of Shaolin.

A fundamental point is not to intellectualize about these distinctions, because then you are at the thought level. Just let go of your thoughts, do not try and suppress them.

I am not sure if this will help of not but picture a calm pool of water with no disturbance, this is original mind. When a mental process arises, be this an active thought or the act of suppressing thought, then it is like dropping a stone into this pool.
The ripples caused by the stone are what we perceive as differentiated and separate phenomena, i.e. our phenomenal world. No-thought is still a thought process so is the same as a thought.
When we let go of the thought process then the pool is calm and flat and we see that ultimate reality is undifferentiated and encompasses all which we previously perceived as individual phenomena.

The 6th Patriarch would call this ‘seeing your original mind/face’.

So, non-thought is important, and is a very important part of Zen, so stop thinking and start ‘doing’!

[TommyC]

I'm tempted to get deeply philosophical about how everything is inter-connected and that we are all One [But] this would be conjecture on my part and not based on my own experience

I’m constantly there at the moment. I try not to get bogged down in analysing an individual experience but try to look to its wider implications for a big picture answer. Mainly, I think (and as a bit of a tie in ) from the fact that standing in stances trains my mind how to overcome an individual muscular discomfort in favour of an overall gain in both physical and mental health.

When we let go of the thought process then the pool is calm and flat and we see that ultimate reality is undifferentiated and encompasses all which we previously perceived as individual phenomena.

Many thanks Sifu, this really gets to the essence of my, if not all, questions. The Platform Sutra is definitely going higher up my reading list.

[Yevin Orion]

Re: Let go of That!

Originally posted by Dan
So, non-thought is important, and is a very important part of Zen, so stop thinking and start ‘doing’!

Thank you Sifu for your clarification. I'll have to get to reading 'The Complete Book of Shaolin' as soon as I'm done with 'The Art of Chi Kung'

[Darryl]

Here we go ..

does energy just flow freely when we think of nothing?

I would say yes and no. Yes, because chi is always flowing, always in motion and no, because by the very nature of constant interaction, blockages and deviations are created, implemented and then influence everything else around them. Continuing Dan Sihing's example, thinking of 'nothing' is still thinking of 'something'. If you are doing 'nothing' while doing 'nothing', then your chi will flow freely and uninterupted.

Is this, then, the art of self manifested chi flow and stance training?

Much bigger question and one that I can't and won't really be able to answer. Again, I would say yes and no, depending on your interpretation and experience. This is the sort of question that is best asked in person, to ascertain your actual question. If you mean that by thinking of nothing, are we training to have an empty mind, then your answer is in your Sifu's post. If you are asking if 'doing nothing' is Self Manifested Chi Flow then I would say no, although I would certainly say it is one of the keys. Also, I would say that Self Manifested Chi Flow is one of the keys to doing nothing. Alternately (or far simply), Wu Wei - 'Do nothing and the universe will come to you'.

I also used to have the 'rational mind' supplying all sorts of perfectly reasonable (and in some cases downright ridiculous) theories and explanations in regards to my practice and experiences. Now, 'mentally relaxed' and 'Wu Wei' are the cornerstone's of my personal practice.

[TommyC]

Thank you for this reply Darryl Sisook (please let me know if this relationship is incorrect)

If you are doing 'nothing' while doing 'nothing', then your chi will flow freely and uninterrupted.

I see the ambiguities in my question now, this is the answer to the question I was asking.

If you mean that by thinking of nothing, are we training to have an empty mind, then your answer is in your Sifu's post.

Yes, indeed.

If you are asking if 'doing nothing' is Self Manifested Chi Flow then I would say no, although I would certainly say it is one of the keys. Also, I would say that Self Manifested Chi Flow is one of the keys to doing nothing.

Yes, I was wandering about that too.

Wu Wei - 'Do nothing and the universe will come to you'.

This has significantly more meaning to me now, many thanks.

[Darryl]

Family Terms

Originally posted by TommyC
Darryl Sisook

Yes, this is the correct term. Dan is my Sihing (Elder Brother), he is your Sifu (Teacher/Father) so I am your Sisook (Younger Uncle).

In the London class, Marcus Sihing is learning from his Sidai (Younger Brother), making him your Sipak (Elder Uncle).

In the class you would also be training with your Sije (Elder Sister) and Simui (Younger Sister).

Recently your Sigung (Grandfather?, your Sifu's Sifu) visited London and talked of your SiTaiGung's (Great Grandfathers?, your Sigung's Sifu's).

Also in London, one of my Kungfu Todai's (Student's) met some of Dan Sihing's Todai's. My Todai was then meeting his SiTaiHing (Big Elder Brother), since they were learning Kungfu from his Sipak.

Hope this helps clear up some of the terminology for other members of the Wahnam family.

[Marcus]

Thankyou very much Darryl or should I call you Sidai? I shall print this off and stick it on the PC, Memorise it and then eat it before it self destructs

Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Buddha

[Chiahua]

I still have it, trying to let go....

Originally posted by Darryl

I also used to have the 'rational mind' supplying all sorts of perfectly reasonable (and in some cases downright ridiculous) theories and explanations in regards to my practice and experiences. Now, 'mentally relaxed' and 'Wu Wei' are the cornerstone's of my personal practice.

Okay, this is a question that arises only because I've not had anyone show me the difference but here goes. When you say "mentally relaxed" or "wu wei", are we in danger of having our mind turn into "a dead fish"? So borrowing from Sifu Anthony's analogy of the fist, the couldn't be a) a clenched fist nor b) a totally limp, "dead" one, but somehow in between? I mean, there's thought, no-thought, and then something in between, non-thought? From browsing my copy of Complete Book of Zen, what I am thinking is that non-thought constitutes thoughts arising, but not sticking or abiding in the consciousness (alaya-vijnana?)... Practically speaking, what should I be looking out for? I know one is supposed to enjoy the practice, but my sifu says that if you are comfortable your brain "gets limp" or scattered or whatever; intention becomes lost.

[Antonius]

my sifu says that if you are comfortable your brain "gets limp" or scattered or whatever; intention becomes lost.

I'm lost. Are we talking about meditation, kungfu practice, combat, or fishing?

I don't bother with all this intellectualization of non-intellectualization. I like what Sigung Ho said:

"Sit in lotus. Think of nothing and do nothing."

Of course, if we're talking about combat, there must be intention. If not, then I think Sunyata is right -- we're dealing with dead fish.

[qingui]

Re: Family Terms

[ Also in London, one of my Kungfu Todai's (Student's) met some of Dan Sihing's Todai's. My Todai was then meeting his SiTaiHing (Big Elder Brother), since they were learning Kungfu from his Sipak. ]


This one is a bit tricky.

My understanding of SiTaiHing (Should it be TaiSiHing ? or DaShiXiong in Mandarin) is the most senior student of Sifu.

Do you mean any students of yours should address the students of all your SiHings as SiTaHing irrespective of their age and the time they join the training ? Again my understanding is slightly different, it is polite to address others in the family (students of one's SiPak or SiSook) as Sihing or SiJe if you think that they are older or more senior (strictly speaking the seniority should be the deciding factor), otherwise SiDai or SiMui may be used.

The above are only my understanding and I stand to be corrected.

[Antonius]

Qingui, you're correct.

Sitaihing (or Dashixiong) should be the most senior of the Sifu's students. I'm not clear whether this means active (still practicing) students, or if it means the absolute, senior-most student.

Of Sifu's foreign students, I think Douglas would be the Sitaihing. If we include his Malaysian students, I think Ng Kowi Beng is most senior, though I'm not sure.

[Chiahua]

Originally posted by Antonius
I'm lost. Are we talking about meditation, kungfu practice, combat, or fishing?

Um, I guess all three. But there's sort of a fuzzy distinction between qigong, meditation, or kungfu practice?

I don't bother with all this intellectualization of non-intellectualization. I like what Sigung Ho said:

"Sit in lotus. Think of nothing and do nothing."

which would be apt for sitting meditation, of course. But not thinking of nothing, doing nothing is not applied to qigong (like lifting the sky etc) or kungfu practice...

Of course, if we're talking about combat, there must be intention. If not, then I think Sunyata is right -- we're dealing with dead fish.

which is also true of qigong, since you have to use your yi. But your yi is not used in sitting meditation?
Sorry if this is getting bogged down in words. I'll just go ahead and hit myself with the stick....

*THWACK*

[Darryl]

Clarification

Hi folks,

Sitaihing (or Dashixiong) should be the most senior of the Sifu's students.

I stand corrected .

Back to Mind training ...

... if you are comfortable your brain "gets limp" ...

The important part here is what exactly 'comfortable' is being taken to mean. From a view of 'complacent/lazy' then I fully agree with your Sifu. 'Relaxed yet focused' is the best description for what I would refer to as being Mentally relaxed.

[Dan]

Of Sifu's foreign students, I think Douglas would be the Sitaihing. If we include his Malaysian students, I think Ng Kowi Beng is most senior, though I'm not sure.

I believe that the senior student would be our Sihing, or rather SiTaiHing if I’m correct , Goh Kok Hin. I think Jeffrey visited him with Sifu recently, and I agree that Douglas is our largest, biggest brother outside Malaysia.

[Dan]

Okay, this is a question that arises only because I've not had anyone show me the difference but here goes. When you say "mentally relaxed" or "wu wei", are we in danger of having our mind turn into "a dead fish"? So borrowing from Sifu Anthony's analogy of the fist, the couldn't be a) a clenched fist nor b) a totally limp, "dead" one, but somehow in between? I mean, there's thought, no-thought, and then something in between, non-thought? From browsing my copy of Complete Book of Zen, what I am thinking is that non-thought constitutes thoughts arising, but not sticking or abiding in the consciousness (alaya-vijnana?)... Practically speaking, what should I be looking out for? I know one is supposed to enjoy the practice, but my sifu says that if you are comfortable your brain "gets limp" or scattered or whatever; intention becomes lost.

A good analogy (maybe) would be when at the start of practicing dynamic pattern Chi Kung Sifu will say ‘stand upright and relax’. Students who collapse on the floor (I don’t know if there have been any cases like this; it is just an example) would missing the first part of the instructions and therefore be the ‘dead fish’ or ‘limp’ analogy. Those who are upright but not relaxed represent the tightly clenched fist of my Sihing . Those who follow both parts represent non-thought.

The sixth patriarch says something along the lines of;

“Non-thought is to see all phenomena but not be attached to any phenomena, to be everywhere but not attached to anywhere….this is the samadhi of prajna. It is spontaneity, it is liberation. It is called the cultivation of non-thought.”

“If you stop thought this is the bondage of phenomena and it is a perverse view.”

(apologies if I have badly paraphrased the great man)

Non-thought would represent detachment from phenomena, merging with the cosmic wholeness of the universal mind.

Consciousness no longer conditioned by attachment to phenomena flowing freely to and fro the 6 senses, perceiving relative phenomena non-dualistically.

I hope this helps a bit.

It seems the limitation of words make shockingly simple things shocking complicated, and therefore cause us to spend a lot of time thinking about words and meaning, whose ultimate intention are to help us stop thinking!

It is almost amusing!

I think I can hear Hui Neng sneaking up behind me with his staff!