Preparing for combat

[Baguamonk1]

Real life fights? Yes I am passing it off as experience. If you met me in real life, I don't think you would be able to match it with my posts, simply because I am not an old guy, or a geek, or even someone who looks like an "intellectual." As I probably sound like in my posts. I hung out with some of the rougher kids in high school, and as such I knew alot of people from different types of places. Lots of people getting jumped, or one-on-one fights, or comparisons on fighting styles. Just recently one of my old friends, who was a golden glove boxer, got into a fight with a wrestler-street fighter type, the golden glove was beaten, and part of his ear got bitten off. Anyways 4 long years later, they fought again..The wrestler was now Marine special forces, and the Golden glove was now 300lbs muscle-bound MMA. The fight ended with a throw to the ground a on concrete, and a knee to the face. You can guess who won. Nowdays, MMA is SO common and so popular, that it actually kind of annoys me, because you got every kid trying to be some UFC wannabe star, beating other people up. And BTW these are all people raised middle-upper, or upper class. Times have changed I'm telling ya

Darryl, actually the time when I mentioned getting jumped by 4 guys after defending myself was not my story. But I have been in worser situations, more than once. It is a common situation. I used it as an example because I, and most of the the guys I know have been in similar situations. Especially when you are young, even just supposedly "disrespecting" someone, like lets say ego-driven dude insults you or tries to make you look bad, or bullies you around. If you stand up to him, and do it well, there is a chance for some sort of "punishment" later on down. Yes I have been jumped by friends of a guy that I sort of beat up, and then walked away, it came back to me later. I'm not saying train to finish the guy off or be cruel to the guy, I am simply saying, hey, sometimes it comes back to you. And if you are cruel to him, he might not come back to get you immediately, but you can bet your bottom dollar if he see's you again...There are guys who learn their lessons, and some guy's who don't. In this way, fate can be cruel because you can never tell who's going to want to get revenge on you, being merciful, or finishing the fight, is often a dillema.

Also Molly, I am not trying to say you won't get attacked, I guess what I meant, is that a girl does not have to worry about lets say, the really low gritty bars because most women, especially nice pretty women, won't be caught dead in those type of areas Are you really going to go to one of those types just to cause/look for trouble like most of the guys in those bars do? I doubt it. But yes it is even more likely, especially if alone, that you WILL be attacked, or someone attempting rape. Thats why I said "knee and run," you simply don't know how many dudes are waiting, or what kind of weapons he has. Do something unexpected, and viscious to stun him while you leave, because once he realizes it, probably will anger him and make it worse.I did not mean do it because you're a woman. I was mentioning it because of legal liability, it looks alot worse, kneeing some guy in the face, or seriously hurting him, if you are a guy. Than a young girl, in the wrong place at the wrong time, doing the same thing. You might not think so, but alot of times courts are biased, towards racial preferences, or even gender based. What I'm saying, is that as a girl you can get away with more, because as a girl you are usually not questioned on your methods of self defense (unless of course you killed the guy). But if you are a well-built dude, and there are no witnesses, and you knee some guy in the face, and HE decides to press charges..you could run into some trouble. I am not trying to say I underestimate women, I am trying to say that other people do..And like I said we are human, there is a huge difference between someone sparring at you, in a mutual competition, and someone jumping you. Most people nowdays carry knives.

I have taken my beatings, I was trying to discuss in another thread, how sometimes when you have already lost and are taking a beating, is sometimes wise to not try and make it worse, and just finish taking the beating. If you piss of some cracked-out/drunk group of ruffians, after you have already been jumped and you are on the ground taking a viscious beating, there is a possibility it could get worse. Its a serious situation because you might be able to get up and do some damage to the group, and escape/finish it, or you could lose and perhaps even get killed, or beaten up visciously.

So clearly, I would say just stay away, stay alert, walk with confidence. Keep yourself away from situations like that.

[Andrew]

Real life fights? Yes I am passing it off as experience. If you met me in real life, I don't think you would be able to match it with my posts, simply because I am not an old guy, or a geek, or even someone who looks like an "intellectual." As I probably sound like in my posts.

What do you mean to say? Yes, you are talking from experience. Or no, you are not talking from experience. Why try to say in 3 unclear sentences what can be said clearly in 5 words?

I guess what I meant, is that a girl does not have to worry about lets say, the really low gritty bars because most women, especially nice pretty women, won't be caught dead in those type of areas

You won't find a Shaolin Kung Fu exponent there (whether male or female) either. So this line of argumentation is irrelevent.

Andrew

[Darryl]

Why try to say in 3 unclear sentences what can be said clearly in 5 words?

Or one

Saying ...

Yes I am passing it off as experience

... doesn't mean it is your experience. 'Passing it off' is a phrase that can mean pretending someone else's work is your own.

That's why I wanted a definite, one word answer. Short, simple, clear.

There's too many contradictions for me to take your stories seriously.

Just recently one of my old friends, who was a golden glove boxer, got into a fight with a wrestler-street fighter type, the golden glove was beaten, and part of his ear got bitten off. Anyways 4 long years later, they fought again

Just recently? 4 years later? Even if I give you the benefit of the doubt, this is an excellent example of mental confusion and contradiction.

I like threads that give practical, genuine advice. As you're giving advice regarding real life enounters, I'd like to know if you are talking from your own experiences, or just passing along urban myths and comments from other Forums. In one word please.

[Andrew]

You're right of course Darryl.

So the question is:

Baguamonk1, are you commenting and giving advice from personal experience?

Muliple Choice Answers are:

A - Yes
B - No
C - None of the above

Now the required answer is reduced to a single letter.

Andrew

[Darryl]

Hi baguamonk,

My apologies, I missed this part.

Darryl, actually the time when I mentioned getting jumped by 4 guys after defending myself was not my story. But I have been in worser situations, more than once. It is a common situation. I used it as an example because I, and most of the the guys I know have been in similar situations

Thank you for clarifying that you are not writing your own stories, but you are writing from some of your own experiences.

sometimes when you have already lost and are taking a beating, is sometimes wise to not try and make it worse, and just finish taking the beating

When I read this, I felt very sorry for you. I'm not being patronising, but Hubert wrote an excellent thread regarding common misconceptions. You can find it here.

So clearly, I would say just stay away, stay alert, walk with confidence. Keep yourself away from situations like that

I applaud your efforts to write with clarity. What is written here - in these two lines - is enough. Less is more.

[Mark A]

One facet of the Arts

Hey Folks,
I have been following this thread with a bit of interest but up until now I have had very poor access to the net.

So just to add a few things.

Reading the thread it sounds as if some people have been only looking at Kung Fu on one level, the level of combat and fighting.

Yes it is a warrior art and is about fighting. But it is so much more.

In our system you, right from the start you are taught to be calm and have mental clarity. This is taught in the very first lesson and progresses right through your training.

Most fights are won in the mind.

I dont take take this statement to mean that I visualise winning a fight before I even get into one. To me it means I have the ability and mental clarity to avoid them. A great example is buying someone a drink when you have spilt there's.

It depends on ego. If it about money then give someone money. How much is you health and well being worth?

If it is another stimulus such as a loved one in danger.................. Then my intention is going to be very different. But again I will have the mental clarity to assess the situation and commit to the right action.

Baguamonk you mention

Especially when you are young, even just supposedly "disrespecting" someone, like lets say ego-driven dude insults you or tries to make you look bad, or bullies you around. If you stand up to him, and do it well, there is a chance for some sort of "punishment" later on down. Yes I have been jumped by friends of a guy that I sort of beat up, and then walked away, it came back to me later. I'm not saying train to finish the guy off or be cruel to the guy, I am simply saying, hey, sometimes it comes back to you.


This is about action and reaction the, law of karma. This philosphy is taught in our system. To me it is one fundementals in our system. And it it took me a long time to learn it.Because I did not have the mental clarity to really understand due to previous training in other systems.

An example of this is if you hit someone hard then they are going to hit you hard back. I know, I had this mentality for a long time

We teach out students to value there training partner and to see them as a training partner.

This does not mean that we are "soft". But we know that they are there to help us get better and that if we do get hit hard then we know it is an accident.

So bringing this back to training a rounded system. There should be many facets to an internal martial system and Kung Fu. They should give you skills and abilities to enrich your life.

I have given two such fundamentals that are taught in Shaolin Wahnam. The concept of Karma ( cause and effect) and Mental Clarity. They go hand in hand, this allows you to develop and undertsand what you are being taught. These fundemantals enhance each other. This is how you training should be as a whole

Having mental clarity allows you see the results of you actions and the potential reactions ( karma) that might come from them.

Training just to fight can make you aggressive, unstable and paranoid. It can really damage your health as you lock up all you chi etc. Again this is something that I know and have experienced.

For me I am more prepared for combat now than I have ever been. This I put down to training with Sifu and in the Shaolin Arts and my Shaolin Family.

Speaking of family. I would just like to add that Molly has my respect as Kung Fu practitioner. I trained with her in febuary and found her to be a formidable opponent.

Mark

[Baguamonk1]

Oh hey I would like to add some corrections/adjustments to myself.

In no way is pre-emptively kneeing somebody in the crotch or face acceptable, It is disrepsectful and brutal. In fact fighting, or using any sort of violence towards someone else is something that should be avoided at all costs.

My advice to girls, on that subject, was only in the case of a serious predator, perhaps a rapist, and predators usually carry weapons. I said run, because you don't want to deal with someone who might want to rape you, or carries a knife.I mostly suggested it because its QUICK and effective. Very rarely does a man have to worry about getting raped, and if he pre-emptively strikes someone, it could have a legal effect, and even perhaps psychological effect.

In no way was I trying to promote this.

Keep up the Shaolin principles.

And yes, except for the one I told Darryl was not my own, I am speaking from what I have seen/been around, and experienced myself.

Also I messed up, it WAS recent, the fight between the two just happened recently, but the first fight happened 4 years ago. or so. I guess I put the word "recently" in the wrong place, simple typing error. I actually noticed it before, but it was already past 30 minutes and could not edit, oh well.

I totally agree with the above, always train with compassion and safety in mind. Try to make it as realistic as posisble if you can, without any serious accidents or injuries.

Most of what I was talking about, was in dangerous places. People nowdays are pretty messed up, in the UK from what I have heard, the Knife culture is ridiculous. I don't understand why its so hard to believe me, this kind of stuff is common among young people like me, especially if you like to go out, clubs, bars, whatever(it also helps to have dumb friends, or friends who get a little too under the influence).Oh and the answer is A!

[Molly]

Howdy Gangstas!
Gosh Baguamonk, I figured you'd understand the trials and tribulations of femininity since you're a five year old girl and all .

I'd like to swing this thread back into focus, as it's gotten a bit heavy on the real life fight scenarios. Do feel free to keep posting along that vein if those are your experiences, but keep it in the context of what you found worked for you in that situation.

So, with all that in mind, I thought I'd share some of my own successes and failures and how they've helped me. I'm a bit sleep deprived (ahh another 5 am work start today), so I'll do my best to keep my thoughts as orderly as possible. First off, I've never been in a real fight and I don't plan to be. As it was so succintly (sp?) put it:

I would say just stay away, stay alert, walk with confidence. Keep yourself away from situations like that.

Fortunately our training gives us a keen sense of approaching situations like that and most of us steer clear well before anything can go wrong.
Secondly, I've never been in any tournaments. At present, I've little interest in them, but perhaps further down the line. But, I've got a great sparring partner and I've been honing my freesparring skills since returning from Malaysia in Febuary. The first step down this path has been learning to relax the mind.
Those of us who completed last Febuary's intensive course know how spastic we got when it came to free sparring (as do the rest of us who've engaged in the Wahnam freesparring method). Transitioning from one combat sequence to the next can be quite tricky! At first, I'd no idea how to set up an opponent to go from say, sequence #3 to #9. I was eternally ending up on the wrong side and turning into a mental mess. But as you progress, the sequences become more natural and you start to get the feel for where both you and your opponent need to be. Then transitioning becomes a bit easier. But the key for me is allow myself to feel where hands and feet need to be to make the transitions. 10 times out 10, if I try and look at how the legs and feet are positioned, and intellectualize the transition, my form goes to the dogs, my shen gets scattered, and my flow is gone.
So when I prepare to spar using, say, three consecutive combat sequences, I try not to worry about how to set my opponent up. I simply choose my three sequences and go. I know if I continue to press my opponent, I'll eventually get him on the proper side for the next sequence, and so on. By remaining mentally relaxed, and simply feeling things, transitioning gradually becomes more effortless.
Relaxation of the mind continues to be important in so many other ways. Without it, you can't be receptive to any variations your opponent might make. They may respond with a different technique than what you were expecting. They may interrupt you and begin their own sequence. With a scattered shen you cannot respond to this and regain the initiative.
Regaining the initiative
So what to do if your partner interrupts you and starts their own sequence? My biggest problem in this situation is the immediate plowing forward as fast as I can to try and retake control of things. Again, this always fails me. What succeeds for me? Of course, staying calm. But basically, responding with a simple Single Tiger followed by a Black Tiger. As many times as it takes until I'm calm, confident, and able to regain the initiative as a matter of course- not from trying to force it (though hopefully not too many times! ).
The legs have it
I can regain the upper hand in the way I explained above. BUT... only as a result of moving from the legs in a good, solid, relaxed stance. In my solo practice lately, I've gone back to lots and lots of footwork. I try to ignore my hands and upper body. When I practice sets or combat sequences, I try to do so with the majority of my focus on pushing into my stances with my legs. This is only too helpful when going back to partner sparring. Without that emphasis on moving from the legs, my hand techniques are weak and useless, and I cannot control how I want sparring to go.
Interrupting
Ah...I love a good interruption. I like to Happy Bird my training partner in the stomach over and over! Interruption is of course a great skill to develop, but like transitioning it requires lots of relaxation and feeling things. All to often, we go to spar and I think to myself, Ah I'll get him with this, and then exert far too much mental effort on finding an opening. One of the last times I tried to force an opening I was promptly knocked on my butt. But when I've got my game face on, I just relax and go with the flow, and enjoy myself until an opening presents itself. I find doing things this way makes me see a lot more openings! But if I force it, I either can't find it or get myself schooled.
Knowing when to admit that you're the problem
Behold!! My biggest obstacle in life, be it kungfu related or otherwise. We are incredibly lucky to be the inheritors of such a complete system as taught to us by Sifu. Our techniques have been refined over centuries, and they are time tested and honed to near perfection. What I find over and over (and what many people, myself included, often have a hard time admitting) is that generally speaking, if one of our techniques isn't working, the problem isn't that technique, it's you (or ahem, me ). Whether it's sloppy form, a tense mind, and/or a closed heart, the success of each of our techniques is entirely up to the practicioner. This may be difficult for some to hear, as it seems so many people today refuse to look inward at the source of their woes. I think this has been illustrated numerous times lately here on the forum. Trust me folks, I didn't just mount a high horse, everyday I try to build my character to overcome this singular issue. The days I'm most receptive to admitting my wrongs both in life and practice, are the days I shine. The others, well you get the idea.
I just got another dose of this just last week while practicing 'Felling Trees' with my training partner, Josh. I'm sure those of you who sparred with him at the last special intensive course know how ridiculously obnoxious and difficult it is to knock this guy down. I mean, geez! 'Felling Trees' is not one of my stronger techniques, though it's getting there. So there I am, trying with all my might to fell him, failing miserably, getting knocked down repeatedly, all the while getting more and more frustrated and upset. A simple piece of advice helped- "Stop trying to fell me. Focus on your stance" (hey, wasn't I just going on about how important stances are?). But it took awhile before I finally admitted to myself that I was indeed trying to knock him down. Up until then, I told myself I was trying my best, focusing on my stance but it just didn't work. Only once I admitted to myself that I wasn't trying my best could I actually take his advice to heart. Up to that point, he could have said it a million times, all to no avail. Knowing and admitting to myself what I was doing wrong, I was then able to refocus on my stance, relax, smile from the heart, and introduce him to the ground repeatedly. Ha ha. Score one for the little white girl. To sum it all up in a few words, ego has no place in practice.

So these are just a few of the pitfalls and successes I've seen in my training so far. My desire is to share them here, and for others to share as well, to help others avoid or overcome some of the common problems that can hold us back from our true potential. And with that my friends, it's time for me to go practice. Best wishes to all! Molly

[Baguamonk1]

Oh I understand, women are definitely underestimated. I am a five year old girl after all, and I can kick some butt! Power ranger style! I've known quite a few women who could put me on the floor pretty easily. One of them was a serious taiji/bagua/Akido practiciioner, and boy did those joint locks hurt.I've met some girls who can hit too, its all about the waist/legs

As for finding an opening, I agree, don't over exert yourself mentally on this. Just feel it, or "see" it and take it. Or play mind games, go for one spot, make him think you are going there again, which will create an opening, and go for the opening immediately. Keep the flow going, deceive opponent. In taiji, you find openings by "feeling" it. You know when a person is overextended, or has a weakpoint in balance, or where you can find a dead angle by simply feeling it.

[Piers]

Molly, that’s a really interesting, open, honest and, especially, useful post. I’ll try and remember a lot of what you’ve written, not that I’ve reached the point you’re talking about.

piers

[Grimlock]

Si Gu Je Molly,

Thanks also from me for your post -so much of it really struck home, especially the bit about everything coming from your stances. It reminds me of a story I'd like to share.

During my last visit for lessons from my Sifu (Anthony), at lunch one day, we talked about a sparring class we'd had a day or two before. I mentioned how I'd had difficulty applying Bar the Big Boss in combat sequence #6 against a certain classmate who used a lot of muscular strength (it seems my imaginary partner at home was too much of a pushover! ). My Sifu said something like, "But you could just focus and relax into your horse stance and apply it easily, right?" I thought for a second. I thought I had eventually done that, but I really wasn't too sure. Luckily, we had another class where we sparred that night. Against the same classmate, I made a point of observing how easily I could apply Bar the Big Boss by following my Sifu's instructions. Needless to say, it was so easy, it surprised me. To be honest, the difference in my sparring was night and day from the previous session. The main difference was just that I relaxed more and let the patterns flow. I know it's been said several times here, but if you train correctly, when it's time to use the patterns, you should just *let* them happen, not force them.

I know at least in my case, I sometimes let the variables of the situation distract me. Oh, this guy throws his techniques differently. Oh, that guy's the size of a linebacker. Since I spend most of my time practicing alone, it can even just be that I'm sparring a real person instead of an imaginary one! But so far, whenever I've "messed up", the answer has always been to go back to the basics. Sink into your stance. Stay relaxed. It has never been some new, magic instruction that I'd never heard.

[Molly]

Ahoy Matie Chris,
Sorry dude, I searched in vain for the appropriate title to address you. No such luck. I'd never heard the one you used before, that was quite a curveball you threw me !
I really liked your post, particularly because I'd just worked through similar issues recently with 'Bar the Big Boss'. And of course, like most things, one of my problems I had in applying it was coming from my lack of a good horse stance. This was particularly noticeable when using it against 'Naughty Monkey Kicks at Tree'. I'll get all freaked out about the leg thats about to kick me, thus uprooting my stance and getting knocked over. Of course, this goes away easily when you just focus on your stance. Some other problems I'd had were using the hands in this technique as a block and not a strike (despite vividly remembering Sifu saying this technique was NOT a block. Sorry Sifu ). In doing this, I actually put more effort into the technique than necessary. Once you shift into your (good) horse stance, you're mostly out of the major damage zone of the kick. Plus if your stance is good, you usually wind up making contact with their leg where it's (the leg, that its) the weakest. A nice, relaxed, little whap to the thigh area does the trick. Of course, don't aim to hit that area, you should just wind up striking around there as a result of your good stance. Another problem I'd had with that technique was in using it to defend against a Black Tiger. For the same reasons as stated above, and because my preceding Fierce Tiger leading into to it was too riddled with external strength and muscular tension. If you punch hard like that, not only does it slow you down, but your hand that will execute the Big Boss strike will be in a position that's disadvantageous to carry on with that technique (uh, I hope that makes sense). It really highlights how important it is to be relaxed all throughout the combat sequence. Each technique leads into the next and is dependent on the smooth execution of the preceding technique. As you progress further into the combat sequences, it becomes even more important. Granted, nobody should be fudging any of the techniques in any of the combat sequences, but the later ones really require "every movement a work of art", as Sifu always says, for successful application against a skilled opponent.
Good to hear from you Chris. I look forward to some barring someday!
Best Wishes, Molly

[Baguamonk1]

*let* them happen, not force them.

This is very good, and what I was trying to get at in some ways with the previous "stances" discusison. I do not wish for people to discard them or anything, but rather, through the immediate response to the stimulis in front of you, "let it happen" If you force the pattern, or stance, then you might get yourself in trouble. The stances provide a framework of very solid advantages (each one), and each one can be used at the appropiate time. IN IMA, its about the direction of energy, and which way it is traveling, and how to use the body's shape and articulation of the body to achieve your end. Within the basic stance work of all CMA lies the key, all I was trying to say, that in some situations, it does not have to look "picture perfect." Because sometimes, something as easy as shifting your weight, or dropping your center of gravity can end the confrontation.

[Grimlock]

Hi Auntie Molly!

I think the term you're looking for is Si Jat (Kung fu nephew). I'm getting this stuff from the section that is my new best friend! If I'm not mistaken, Sifu Wong is your Sifu, so my Sifu (Anthony) is your Siheng, which makes me your Si Jat (I don't think it makes any difference whether I am the student of your big or little brother/sister). Just be prepared to stifle your laughter if we ever meet (to bar, of course) and I have to actually say "Si Gu Je!"

I'm up to sequence #11 now, so while what you're saying about Bar the Big Boss vs. Naughty Monkey makes some sense to me, I'm afraid I can't speak from experience about it. But I have the same problems with Fierce Tiger/Bar the Big Boss vs. Black Tiger. On a related note, I've recently gained an understanding of why you need to use something like Bar the Big Boss (or Single Knife) against Black Tiger if you're not going to get completely out of the way! I think that understanding the full potential of a given pattern/type of strike goes hand-in-hand with not underestimating your opponent.


Hi Baguamonk,
Maybe the "picture perfect stance" discussion should stay in one main thread (which one was it, anyway? I think it's come up in several now), but I'll just say that I think the goal is not so much a picture perfect stance, but, for whichever stance you're in, you should be getting all the benefits of that stance -it should always be a correct stance. So I could be in a stance that looks perfect, but if I'm not properly rooted or my weight isn't distributed as it should be, it will not be correct. On the other hand, my stance may not be too pretty (for instance, someone might consider it too high), but if it is correct, it does not matter. That said, if you look at the pictures on Sifu Wong's site, everyone is always in a correct stance (except maybe the fresh beginners, and even then, they're pretty close!). I think it's especially telling when these pictures are actually frozen frames from video clips of people free sparring.

It may sound like I'm saying our stances are rigid, but this is really not the case at all. But that's a whole other discussion in itself!

[Baguamonk1]

Good reply.

To me, a stance can be "perfect" without being elongated, or even visibly (or externally) "perfect." Like I said, you guys do Shaolin better than most of the Wushu Shaolin I see out there. The Wushu Shaolin people are the people who seem to miss the point. If you look at older, more traditional Shaolin, and then look at Wushu Shaolin performers..there is a huge difference. Even though they might move from movement to movement smoothly, or have very nice difficult stances, there is something missing. And that is the internal element, relaxed, and flowing.