The artist formerly known as...

[Andrew]

That is an excellent Post, Molly. I must agree with you in every respect and thank you for putting it so clearly.

By now it must be completely clear that this is not a case of Michael vs. Shaolin Wahnam or Michael vs. Anthony or Michael vs. Darryl, etc. What it is, is a clear and firm show of where we stand. It is for Michael's benefit (if he wishes to take it that way or not is up to him), for the benefit of our other visitors, students and instructors.

Andrew

[Zhang Wuji]

Just a quick comment as I need to fly off soon.

You would note how the instructors and Wahnam students responded to Kevin's post, as contrasted with say to Celtic Dragon.

Kevin raised a valid point and did so respectfully. Now, some people seem to think the word "respectfully" is a dirty word, and if we bandy that word around, we are merely mindless minions of the Master(nice alliteration if I may say so myself ). To an Asian and to most Wahnam students, respect is part of our culture. I personally have been utterly shocked at how some Westerners speak to their elders. So, if one is going to post here, just follow the rules, not least those relating to respect.

The responses to Kevin's posts were polite but firm, and were very enlightening. Very often, those who post get what they deserve. Those who post nonsense get an admonition, those who post with a sincere desire to know more, or to poiltely challenge Wahnam opinions are engaged with the same respect (if not more) they displayed.

[wifiabc]

Sifu Wong has plenty of real fighting experience, but Michael is not aware of this fact.

It would be a good idea to provide information of these fights to set the record straight in order to prevent others from thinking that Sifu Wong has no fighting experience.

[Antonius]

For his stuff to work, his students must approach him with a completely open and receptive mind and the discussion forum provides the initial "brain-washing" and "bowing and scraping" training needed.

More falsities. It's just plain illogical. Sifu Wong's "stuff" worked fine on Michael. Actually, it worked great. Most of us remember that when Michael returned from Malaysia, he said that Shaolin Cosmos Qigong was some of the most powerful he had encountered. And yet Michael obviously wasn't completely open and receptive.

As for the forum -- it's about 4 years old. Sifu Wong's "stuff" was working long before we had a forum. Furthermore, 70% of Sifu's student's do not post and have never even visited the forum. So much for that theory, Michael.

Obviously, Michael is out to get Shaolin Wahnam. Something happened to him (that blockage I mentioned earlier, probably). After the course with Sifu last year, he was happy, and said so on this forum. If he was so unhappy then, why didn't he ask for his money back? At some point over the past year, Michael changed dramatically. And ever since then, he's been attacking Shaolin Wahnam and Sifu.

Hopefully, my stance against him is clearer now, as the choice of words like "enemy". I see through his act, as do others here. I see exactly what he's doing, and he's not fooling me, even if he is fooling others like Kevin. Michael says awful things about Shaolin Wahnam on other forums, then pops back here to post a few pictures? And when we question his presence here, he pretends to be all enlightened and non-confrontational. It certainly puts the "Borrowing A Knife to Murder" thread in a new light.

I'm saddened that Michael's tactic actually worked on Kevin and a few others, but I hope that things are a bit clearer now. If anyone wants to engage Michael on those other forums and help to stop the spread of false information, I encourage you to do so.

[Kevin]

Sifu Korahais, no one on this Forum is "fooling me", including Micahel. No tactic has "worked on me". I have to say that I don't really like the undertone of that comment, which makes it sound like those in Wahnam are privileged to a higher wisdom/knowledge that non-Wahnam folks simply do not possess. Close to a "we're smarter/better than you". Maybe that's not how you meant it to be taken, but that's how it sounds.

I've seen on this Forum (I don't remember specifics) where Wahnam members have told others, who express a die-hard/dogmatic religious belief, that they shouldn't be so rigid, that they should at least be open to other possibilities. That maybe there's a possibility that they are wrong. That dogmatic rigidity in beliefs can be more of a negative than a positive. How is the strict, unbending obedience and defense of Wahnam rules/principles/teachings any different than saying/believing that a certain religion is correct and that those who believe it and follow its rules cannot be wrong?

Kevin

[Zhang Wuji]

My departure has been delayed - I have to finish some work, but that's good because I can now write more.

Michael (Udel, not Durkin)

We have had private communications since you left this forum and we were, I believe, on good terms. Out of respect and basic decency, I will not divulge our private communications or even hint at their contents. But I must admit I am shocked at the post you wrote (the one which Molly posted) which was the first time I saw it.

I can understand if you had an issue with forum members - when people have differing views and argue, it is easy to have hard feelings.

But why the vituperative barbs against Sifu? We, his students, love Sifu, but we know that others may not like him, his philosophy, his methods etc. But if they did not like him, they made it clear why in one way or another. You have not once on this forum or any other forum explained what is your issue with Sifu. It seems like some sort of blind hatred you are harbouring that you cannnot or refuse to express.

If you cannot say what your problem is, don't expect your remarks about Sifu to go unchallenged. It is not that we worship Sifu as a god and refuse to hear anything uncomplimentary about him. Rather, we are grateful for what he has done for us, and see him as our father figure. No good son or daughter would let his or her father be insulted by an outsider (which you are).

And don't say things like we are a cult if we stand up for our Sifu. You are an American and may be used to people critcising your country's highest authority (which unfortunately is Dumbya (oops, Dubya) Bush). Well, we have news for you - Shaolin Wahnam is not the US of A. And I will bet neither is any Taijiquan school you are attending. Why don't you try insulting any other master on this or other forum, and see if you get a response from his students? (Er, maybe not, that is the last thing I should be encouraging).

You somehow remind me of Jin Leng (of CFQ (in)fame) who inexplicably became bitter against Sifu despite Sifu having cured him of a physical handicap. Maybe Jin Leng was worse since he received a priceless gift when he was healed but you were taught everything he was taught (including the One-Finger Zen that saved him). Maybe you did not get any benefits but nothing was hidden from you - I know because I have spoken to your course-mates at the intensive course.

Hopefully, you can ask yourself what is the real reason why you are saying such things about Sifu? Do you even know?

[Antonius]

Wuji, thank you for that post.

Sifu Korahais, no one on this Forum is "fooling me", including Micahel. No tactic has "worked on me". I have to say that I don't really like the undertone of that comment,

I'm sorry you feel that way, Kevin. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seemed pretty clear to me that you weren't "getting it." If you saw through Michael's act from the beginning, then why did you ask me so many questions and take so long to "get it"?

which makes it sound like those in Wahnam are privileged to a higher wisdom/knowledge that non-Wahnam folks simply do not possess.

If you don't think that I possess skills that you do not possess, then why on earth do you want to learn from me? A teach should be at least 1 level, and preferably many levels about the student, otherwise there's no point.

Those in Shaolin Wahnam, particularly the instructors, are indeed privileged, and we do possess wisdom, knowledge, and skills that others do not. That's why people come to learn from us. Can you break a bottom brick? Can you channel chi to open a vital point in a student? Can you send chi to your lungs? Can you spar using only classical kung fu patterns? This gets back to my previous post about the horse stance. You might want to reread it.

Close to a "we're smarter/better than you". Maybe that's not how you meant it to be taken, but that's how it sounds.

You might want to ask yourself why you took it that way. Why aren't you giving my words the benefit of the doubt, particularly if you want to learn from me some day? You accused us of being overly defensive, but what exactly are you doing here? Did I attack you?

Michael is good at sowing discord. Can you see that for yourself? Can you see what he's trying to do?

[LeeWeiJoo]

I'm truly disappointed at Michael's behavior. Frankly, I won't waste my time on him. But my seniors are generous enough to attempt to make Michael be aware of his blockages.

With Shaolin Salute,
Lee Wei Joo

[Kevin]

Sifu Korahais, let me clear up a few things. I asked you, and other Wahnam members, so many questions because I was trying to understand why your position was so intensely strong against Michael Udel. I understand now why this is, I "get it". I might not agree 100%, but I get it.

Me getting it (understanding your position) has nothing to do with "Michael's act". I'm not saying I saw through Michael's act, or didn't see through it. I'm not even sure if he is giving an "act". In other words, I don't know if Michael really has some deep hatred of GrandMaster Wong and Wahnam, and is trying to fuel that..or if he merely gave his simple and honest opinion of GrandMaster Wong and the Wahnam organization on that other Forum. Yes, it is not favorable to Wahnam, but that's his opinion.

Obviously I know that Wahnam instructors have knowledge and skills that I don't, such as breaking a bottom brick, directing chi, etc. What I was referring to in my last post was that it sometimes comes across as if Wahnam members think they are just smarter, know more, about things common to all people than non-Wahnam folk. Nothing to do with Chi, Kung Fu patterns, meditation, etc. I mean having a discussion that has nothing to do with these types of specifics, but the Wahnam attitude, at times, seems to treat those with opposing views as small children whom they are humoring by listening to, but just waiting to correct, because they know best.

No, you did not attack me. Far from it. I didn't take your words to be an attack. I appreciate your time and responses on this thread. I wasn't being defensive about what you said, just stating that your words could be taken in a way you didn't intend. Of course I give your words the benefit of the doubt. I'm trying to do that with everyone, including Michael.

You ask if I can see that Michael is trying to sow discord. I can see that there is some discord with this thread, yes. But do I know for certain that Michael is trying to stir things up..that he is out to get Wahnam, that his words on that other Forum were anything but his own opinion about Wahnam..? No, I don't know that. I read what Michael posted on that other Forum. No, it doesn't speak too positively about Wahnam. But if that's how he feels, then that's how he feels.

I don't want to beat a dead horse here. Michael said things about Wahnam on another Forum that have upset you. I understand that. I understand why you think an apology is needed. I also understand that perhaps Michael was merely stating his own personal opinion, and has no deep hatred/ill-will toward GrandMaster Wong or Wahnam. I understand that you will believe what you believe, see things the way you do, and someone else, including Michael, might see it totally differently. It's not my job, and I'm not trying, to say which side is right, and which is wrong. I just wanted to throw out some opinions and observations of my own.

With respect,
Kevin

[Piers]

Kevin has for a long time been an interested, respectful non-Wahnam-member. He is a supporter.

For that reason, I believe we should pay careful attention to what he’s saying now.

I’m not referring to any specific point about Michael Udel. It’s quite clear that Michael is totally out of order. I was shocked and angry by the things he wrote about Sifu. No, I’m talking about a feeling that Kevin is expressing about the underlying attitude he sees here sometimes.

I suspect that the heart of the issue is the point about, as Kevin put it, ‘being privileged to a higher wisdom/knowledge that non-Wahnam folks simply do not posseses’.

I mean, I hope that I am learning greater wisdom as I become older, partly because of accumulating experience, and also through my kung fu and chi kung practice. I would never, however, say to someone that I am wiser than they are. How do I know? Doesn’t the practice of self-scrutiny reveal that we all have hidden egotism, weakness, fears, and so on? Isn’t it sheer self-ignorance to deny that? Surely the more one discovers about oneself and the universe, the more one is humbled?

My understanding is that those who have pursued an authentic spiritual path, whether it’s Christian or Buddhist or whatever, come to realize time and again that they are 'nothing' when compared with the glory of Supreme Reality, just like everyone else.

Do Wahnam practitioners really walk around in the world treating other people as though they’re less wise, less skilful and less knowledgable than we are? Is that really what our training results in? I hope not. In fact, I really truly doubt it. But I think we sometimes talk to other people here in that way, as if, as Kevin put, we know best. Often we do, it's just that acting like we do, believing we do as a general state of affairs, is dangerous, I'd say.

It’s a tricky business, this question of what our attitude to other people should be. Yes, I believe I am learning a great treasure which most people do not know. I am privileged because of that. Yes, I believe our practice will make us better people in all kinds of ways. Yet, I would not be happy to say that I am a better person than most of my non-Wahnam friends or my family. Would you? Is it just my problem in not calling a spade a spade?

On the other hand, other people know things I do not, they have experiences and wisdom I do not, and I don't even necessarily know what wisdom and knowledge and skills they have that I do not.

I ask all this with an open heart, not a condemning heart. This is not a veiled attack on Anthony or any other individual. It’s some questions and some concerns that I think we would do well to ‘meditate on’ a little.

piers

PS The feelings I’m expressing in this post don’t derive from this thread in particular. It’s just that when I saw our old friend Kevin getting in a tangle with Anthony, it crystallised things.

[Molly]

In other words, I don't know if Michael really has some deep hatred of GrandMaster Wong and Wahnam, and is trying to fuel that..or if he merely gave his simple and honest opinion of GrandMaster Wong and the Wahnam organization on that other Forum. Yes, it is not favorable to Wahnam, but that's his opinion.


You ask if I can see that Michael is trying to sow discord. I can see that there is some discord with this thread, yes. But do I know for certain that Michael is trying to stir things up..that he is out to get Wahnam, that his words on that other Forum were anything but his own opinion about Wahnam..? No, I don't know that. I read what Michael posted on that other Forum. No, it doesn't speak too positively about Wahnam. But if that's how he feels, then that's how he feels.

Okay so again we're back to the whole Michael is entitled his own opinion. I don't know either what Michael's deal with Sifu is. Yes, we know that his opinions are not favorable of Wahnam. We're well aware by the awful words he used. Did you read my last post here? I don't think there's alot of room in the words I quoted to misunderstand just how extremely offensive what he said was. Let me ask you something Kevin. Say we were friends. One day I stopped liking you. So I went and told all my friends (some of whom were our mutual friends) that you were a child molestor (which I'm NOT saying ). How would you feel about those awful things I said about you? Would you feel betrayed, like your reputation was injustly tarnished? And how would you feel if after all that I just popped up on your doorstep with pictures of my vacation like nothing happened? I'm thinking you just might want an apology.
Yes Kevin, Michael is entitled to his own opinion, no matter how crappy I may think it. But he is duty bound- I'm not talking Shaolin Laws now, I'm talking common courtesy- to express his opinion IN A RESPECTFUL MANNER. Doing anything less is slander, and is illegal in this country if I'm not mistaken.

I mean having a discussion that has nothing to do with these types of specifics, but the Wahnam attitude, at times, seems to treat those with opposing views as small children whom they are humoring by listening to, but just waiting to correct, because they know best.

Sorry Kevin, I had to laugh when I read this because in the very next paragraph you go on to tell Anthony Siheng that his responses to you were not attacks. You are a perfect example here. You have an opposing view point which most of us don't agree with. You expressed it in a respectful manner, and here we are having a respectful discussion.
Were you to express your opinions rudely, you'd be treated no differently than anyone else who does the same.

It always cracks me up when people come in here insulting and swearing a blue streak at us, then says Wahnam is totalitarian when dealing with people of opposing viewpoints.
but seriously Kevin, we all know Michael is entitled to his own opinion, it's just that what he did with it was in EXTREMELY poor taste.
Molly

[Mark Blohm]

PS The feelings I’m expressing in this post don’t derive from this thread in particular. It’s just that when I saw our old friend Kevin getting in a tangle with Anthony, it crystallised things.

I'm not sure what you're talking about, Piers. What crystallized?

[Darryl]

Hi Piers,

I would not be happy to say that I am a better person than most of my non-Wahnam friends or my family. Would you? Is it just my problem in not calling a spade a spade?

You'd be misunderstanding us if you think I/we are saying that Shaolin Wahnam makes you better than other people. What I said is that Shaolin Wahnam makes you a better person than you were. And yes, I am a better person than I was before I started. I can say that as a 100% fact.

When we told Michael that he needs to apologise to progress, that's a 100% fact. If he decides not to do it, that's a choice.

It’s a tricky business, this question of what our attitude to other people should be

No it isn't. What has your Sifu told you? Have you even asked him? You've already covered it in your Kungfu class. I'll give you a hint - what do you do to your partner? I'm assumming that you've also forgotten our schools initial requirement. There's 10 of them and they're also not limited to interactions with your Shaolin Wahnam family members.

[Antonius]

I don't know if Michael really has some deep hatred of GrandMaster Wong and Wahnam, and is trying to fuel that..or if he merely gave his simple and honest opinion of GrandMaster Wong and the Wahnam organization on that other Forum. Yes, it is not favorable to Wahnam, but that's his opinion.

This is what I'm talking about "not getting it," Kevin. I have already said many times that Michael is not just offering an opinion, and yet you repeatedly come back to this. Must I say it again? Must I point out that Michael is spreading false statements that contradict the facts, contradict his own statements from a year ago, and contradict basic logic?

but the Wahnam attitude, at times, seems to treat those with opposing views as small children whom they are humoring by listening to, but just waiting to correct, because they know best.

Our general attitude here is of instructors. We are teachers, and we are here to teach (although we also learn in the process). All of the instructors are donating their time to this forum -- time that could be spent practicing, teaching, or reading. Your comments strike me like this, Kevin. A visitor stops me in the middle of my class and says, "Hey man, stop treating everyone like juniors and acting like you know best!"

I read what Michael posted on that other Forum. No, it doesn't speak too positively about Wahnam. But if that's how he feels, then that's how he feels.

So if I feel that the Pope can't read, and I start spreading that "opinion" on other forums, that's okay and people should just let go and forgive?

[Antonius]

Kevin has for a long time been an interested, respectful non-Wahnam-member. He is a supporter.

It doesn't matter if someone is a supporter or not. I weigh everyone's comments equally, even Michael's. If I find truth in there, then I consider it. If I find falsities, I typically reveal them.

I suspect that the heart of the issue is the point about, as Kevin put it, ‘being privileged to a higher wisdom/knowledge that non-Wahnam folks simply do not posseses’.

Piers or Kevin -- please highlight for me where I said that I was wiser than anyone else? I believe that I said something along the lines of "I possess wisdom that others do not", and I highlighted several examples. That is significantly different than saying, "I am wiser than others." Can you see the difference? Please don't put words in my mouth.

I would never, however, say to someone that I am wiser than they are.

Nor would I. Nor did I. See above.

Surely the more one discovers about oneself and the universe, the more one is humbled?

The Shaolin Wahnam instructors I've met are among some of the most humble people I've ever met. A consistent theme runs through all of us, and is always evident on this forum in the form of respect. All of us are profoundly humbled by Sifu and our past masters. So please forgive me if I don't really see your point.

On the other hand, other people know things I do not, they have experiences and wisdom I do not, and I don't even necessarily know what wisdom and knowledge and skills they have that I do not.

Clearly, you know what wisdom Sifu Wong possess, and you are trying to learn it. Perhaps you have wisdom about car repair that Sifu Wong does not have. However, he is not trying to learn that from you. He is the teacher in the relationship.