The artist formerly known as...

[Kevin]

Sifu Collett, you say that Sifu Korahais is more forgiving than you. "More" forgiving? It doesn't appear that you are showing or expressing any forgiveness at all.
Surely the ideal, and practice, of forgiveness isn't that terribly far from the wisdom and compassion that are Shaolin hallmarks.

I don't think Michael was rude. I think he stated his opinion about Wahnam, and that upset many, if not all, in the Wahnam family. I understand your desire for an apology for his having upset you with his words. But I don't think that has anything to do with Michael being kind, rude, or in between.

Isn't there a time to just let go? Who is being negatively affected by Michael not apologizing? Obviously not him, because he sees no need for it. He's not dwelling on it. He's left it behind, right or wrong. So that leaves you, and perhaps other Wahnam members, still thinking about it, dwelling on it, wanting that apology. How is that good for you? How is that affecting your life positively at all?

Why is it pointless to talk to Michael, why is he not deserving? Because he doesn't agree with you or see things your way? Is someone a waste of your time unless they flatter you, agree with you unconditionally?

I wasn't criticizing Sifu Korahais. And from what I can tell, he didn't take it as criticism. And I'm not "defending" anyone. I'm trying to get the basic point across that Michael isn't wrong, isn't the enemy, simply because he's not agreeing with you or doing what you think is appropriate. Is there no chance on this earth that you could be wrong in this, or other, situations? I know I'm far from perfect.

And finally, you state that by apologizing, Michael would be a better person? Are you in a position to judge who is better or worse, good or bad, worthy or unworthy? How would he be a better person? Because he did what you wanted him to?

Respectfully,
Kevin

[Darryl]

Hi Kevin,

I actually found your post quite amusing, in a nice way.

To set the record straight, I'm not losing any sleep over Michael and I doubt anyone else is either. My concern is to do with only teaching deserving students. Flattery and unconditional agreement is also not neccessary.

The criteria for being a 'better person' is not mine, nor did it come from me. Maxime's previous signature beautifully yet eloquently decribed what I meant by a 'better person'. As far as I remember, it was "Learning to be a better father, husband and son". He's changed it now, so I can't be sure of the exact wording but hopefully you get the point.

Is it my place to decide if someone is a 'worthy person'? No. Is it my place to decide if someone is 'worthy' of me teaching them? Yes. Is my decision up for debate? Not really, no.

Kevin, you're confusing 'forgiving someobody' with 'being a deserving student'. I have no personal animosity towards Michael, nor do I bear him any ill will. I sincerely hope he does become a better person. At the moment, he is not a deserving student, certainly not for Shaolin Wahnam.

[Antonius]

Kevin, did you even read my last post? Can you at least acknowledge that Michael was not just expressing opinions, but rather spreading false statements about us? It's pretty close to libel.

And yet you keep saying the same thing, and how you don't see what we're going on about. Fine. But don't blame us for not trying to help you understand. I've gone out of my way explaining things to people recently, and so have my colleagues. I think we've been more than fair. If, after all our efforts, you still don't get it, then the ball is in your court, not ours.

You also mention forgiveness, which I find irrelevant. To me, what you describe isn't forgiveness, but rather, allowing someone to walk all over us. As someone said recently, we are warriors. There are times to walk away, and times to stand your ground.

For your information, I practice forgiveness every day. If someone cuts me off in traffic, I forgive them later during my practice. If someone insults me, I forgive them. I also forgive people who hurt me long ago. Similarly, I also ask for forgiveness for my trespasses. But this has nothing to do with the situation at hand. I can forgive Michael, and yet still stand strong and refuse to let him walk all over us. Similarly, a woman can forgive her husband for abusing her, but that doesn't mean she should allow him to continue abusing her, nor does it make the abuse right.

[Michael Durkin]

But if someone comes along and doesn't believe in something near and dear to Wahnam, you usually won't hear, "Thanks for offering your side-we don't agree, but it's interesting to hear a totally different opinion-The End". Often it is taken as a personal attack/insult, and the non-Wahnam poster must be proven wrong.

What usually happens is that the person that comes along with a different opinion is actually rude by the way they express it. That is what Shaolin Wahnam takes exception to, not the alternative opinion.

What usually follows is that Shaolin Wahnam members make effort to point out the rudeness, and explain a more appropriate response. But that advice often falls on deaf ears.

[yeniseri]

et tu Brutus

freinds, countrymen, neighbours, etc

As I read it, Michael was extended an invitation to come back and share and the only thing he did was post his fotos as part of sharing. He did nothing more than share with fellow brethren.

[Maxime]

Yeniseri,

thank you for giving credit to Michael (Durkin) Sihing.

Yes, your last post just proved (if necessary) he was right when he wrote

What usually follows is that Shaolin Wahnam members make effort to point out the rudeness, and explain a more appropriate response. But that advice often falls on deaf ears.

Best,

Maxime

[Kevin]

Sifu Collett, I didn't mean to combine or make similarities between "forgiving someone" with "being a deserving student".
The concept, and requirements, of being a deserving student in Wahnam are totally up To GrandMaster Wong and the Wahnam family. Obviously an outsider has no place to attempt to change them. However, an outsider should be allowed to disagree with them and give their opinion of why they disagree without simply being humored with the "You're wrong, we'll tell you why in a moment after we've listened to your side". Wahnam sets those criteria and the student, to be deserving in Wahnam's eyes, must follow them. But the deserving student topic could be in a thread all it's own.
I'm not really talking about that particular issue.

As far as forgiveness, I'm just not sensing that it's at the top of the list of ideals around here. Compassion, wisdom, patience, even tolerance I can see clearly in place on this Forum. But when someone speaks in the opposite direction of a Wahnam rule, teaching, thought, etc., from start to finish, I really haven't seen forgiveness and letting go flourishing that often.

Everything seems to be very peaceful, joyful, and status-quo on the Wahnam Forum until someone comes along with a (strong) belief or opinion that is contrary to Wahnam's. More often than not, this person will eventually be told they are being irrational, disrespectful, etc. Sometimes they are, but sometimes they aren't. They will generally be told that they are wrong, why they are wrong, how they weren't respectful, and so on.

Sifu Korahais, yes, I do acknowledge that Michael's words could be taken as fact instead of opinion by someone reading them, and that that wouldn't be fair to Wahnam. But I don't think his intent in writing it was to spread false statements about Wahnam.

And I do understand why and what you are going on about. You have explained it very clearly. There is no ball in my court, because this debate/discussion is between Wahnam and Michael. I'm a third party here. I was just trying to give an alternate opinion than that of Wahnam, and perhaps different than that of Michael. Do you see that by doing that, by giving an opinion opposite of Wahnam, I am labeled as "not getting it". Sifu Collett called my one post "amusing". I'm sure he probably didn't mean that in a negative way, and I don't take offense, but the very word attempts to lessen any credibility of my post. Is Wahnam never wrong?

I realize that you may find forgiveness irrelevant here, but just because you find it irrelevant, doesn't mean that it is. Again, Michael stated his opinion of Wahnam. You stated that it's not his opinion you want the apology for, but for how it made the Wahnam family look/feel. How did he walk all over you? How did he "abuse" Wahnam?
It just seems that Wahnam members on this Forum are awfully quick to take offense and go to battle.

Always open to, and looking forward, to hearing more,

Kevin

[Antonius]

When I say that you are not getting it, it's because I have already explained myself. In many cases, I've explained myself several times. And yet, despite being highly intelligent, you resist (or completely miss) the explanation. For example, you asked...

How did he walk all over you? How did he "abuse" Wahnam?

...despite my having just explained it in the last post. Shall I explain it again? Michael was making false statements about us in public. In some situations, that is considered libel, which is illegal. To simply "let go" and not take a stance would be akin to letting him walk all over us.

Is Wahnam ever wrong? No, not as a school, we're not. Of course, right and wrong are subjective, but according to our set of ethics and morals (The Ten Shaolin Laws), and our set of beliefs (about chi, etc.) we never do what we consider to be "wrong". We have a core set of beliefs, and as a school, we stick to them. Of course, as individuals, we are human and make mistakes. When I make mistakes, I try to acknoweldge them and learn from them. I have done this countless times on this forum. But I'm not doing that now. I'm taking a firm stance.

But I don't think his intent in writing it was to spread false statements about Wahnam.

This is where we disagree. Am I entitled to my opinion? And if it is my opinion that Michael was intentionally spreading false statements, and that, even now, he feels no regret about it -- wouldn't you consider my stance the "right" move?

[Akemi]

Dear Kevin,

Your last post made me think of something. Our instructors have spent quite a bit of time practicing, which means that they've spent plenty of time getting to know themselves. They've spent hours in zhang zhuang, learning how to relax, and more importantly, how to feel when their stances are correct. From my understanding (which is quite limited here-I'm very new at this), once you "get it," that is, once you find your stance, and feel the qi flowing correctly, there is no way you will be comfortable taking a misaligned stance.

My seniors have taken their stance here. Their strength may seem unnecessary to you, or other observers, but I believe this is an external manifestation of years of training. In class, we're taught when retreat is necessary. Obviously they believe it's important to stand their ground.

As far as forgiveness, I'm just not sensing that it's at the top of the list of ideals around here. Compassion, wisdom, patience, even tolerance I can see clearly in place on this Forum. But when someone speaks in the opposite direction of a Wahnam rule, teaching, thought, etc., from start to finish, I really haven't seen forgiveness and letting go flourishing that often.

It may be very true that you have not. I have.

I've seen my seniors quickly 'let go' as soon as an individual apologizes for rudeness and takes responsibility for their actions. In fact, my seniors are well known for having no trouble with differing opinion as long as the explanation makes sense (the person can back up their information) and they present that information respectfully. They will then make sure that Wahnam belief is clear for the sake of younger members who may not know, and for those who come to this forum seeking good information.

Sifu Korahais, yes, I do acknowledge that Michael's words could be taken as fact instead of opinion by someone reading them, and that that wouldn't be fair to Wahnam. But I don't think his intent in writing it was to spread false statements about Wahnam.

How did he walk all over you? How did he "abuse" Wahnam?

Sifu Anthony and others have written several posts here and in other threads explaining this in much detail. Maybe you should go back and re-read them. One note: Sifu Anthony said nothing about Michael having walked all over Wahnam. He simply stated that he would not allow Michael to do so.

For once, Yeniseri's random quotes come in handy . "et tu Brutus." If our Sifus did not force Michael to acknowledge what could be considered a deceiptful stance, we would be aiding and abetting a Brutus. He goes to other forums and spreads misinformation about our Sigung, and comes here and pretends to be a loving and forgiving person who rises above those rabid Wahnam Sifus. Please. We can see right through it.

Best,

[yeniseri]

thanks be to all

Take it easy Michael, hope to see you here again soon

Have plenty o' fun with your travels in China, keep me posted.

Take care,

27Mar2006

Vanessa,
You are welcome

[Kevin]

Sifu Korahais, I get it now. Honest.

I was, perhaps, missing the "abusing" and "walking all over" notion because I personally don't see those statements from Michael as abuse or walking all over. I understand now, completely, that you do see it that way.
I guess in my mind, Michael made statements about Wahnam. You see them as false because you are within, and a part of, Wahnam.
I personally can't judge them as true or false, because I don't have direct experience with Wahnam Kung Fu or Chi Kung practice.

I understand your desire to defend your Sifu, your school. I understand that that is your firm stance. Yes, you are entitled to your opinion about Michael, what he said, and how damaging you think it was.
I just see Wahnam taking offense, firm stances, rushing to battle/defend, etc. against those who think differently quite often.

As far as right and wrong, and whether they are subjective or objective..well, that's a Major topic that could probably fill up many pages. I'm not really wanting to go there.
I'll just say this-you state that according to Wahnam's set of ethics and morals, and its set of beliefs, you are never wrong as a school. You yourself state that right and wrong are subjective. Therefore, can't another person, or school's, opinion/teaching/ideas be different than yours, and still be just as right, as long as they are following the morals, ethics, and beliefs of their school? If so, then when according to your rules you think someone verbally abused you and owes you an apology, then that person, according to thier rules, might not see anything wrong with their words, and see no need for any type of apology.

No one can know what Michael's intent was in writing those things except for himself. As I said, I totally understand you taking offense, and stating your position and disapproval. That's fine. That's expected.
But it's like Wahnam goes into overkill/overdrive to "avenge the wrong". Maybe I'm the only one that sees it that way. But hey, that's just my opinion, and everyone is entitled to theirs, right?

Best,
Kevin

[Darryl]

Hi Kevin,

I'm glad that you didn't find my usage of 'amusing' as offensive. It wasn't intended to weaken your position, it's just that I was amused while reading your post.

Similarily, I was amused when reading a post recently where someone was taking offence to 'being attacked by the Wahnam Instructors'. I was idly wondering what would happen if we did attack them on the Forum, pondering that maybe we should attack someone so there would be a template for people to compare it too. The absurdity of it made me laugh, especially when I was considering having to explain my actions to Sifu afterwards.

I don't find your observations absurd, but I do find your view of our [lack of]forgiveness amusing.

You stated that it's not his opinion you want the apology for, but for how it made the Wahnam family look/feel.

This isn't entirely true. Personally, I'd like the apology to show he had moved on. There will always be people insulting Shaolin Wahnam, but if any of them ever intended to have a productive conversation with us, I'd expect an apology first. A sincere apology would be an indication that they were ready to move on.

An insult is a measure of where someone is, mentally and emotionally. So is the apology. If someone insulted you once, would you stand there and let them continue? Or would you take preventative action? What if your family was standing behind you? Or a school full of young children? Would you just stand there? Assuming you're a nice person, you wouldn't beat them senseless with a steel pipe. But you would find a way to either make them stop, or take the situation elsewhere.

Welcome to Forum Moderation

[Antonius]

My horse stance is solid.

Thank you, Vanessa, for coming up with such a meaningful analogy. I think pushing that analogy will help to answer several questions, including your latest one, Kevin.

Bad Stance, Bad Student

A new student once showed me a horse stance he had learned from another instructor. I told him that it was wrong because his tailbone was tucked in and tense, his spine was not straight, and his chest was collapsed. I was 100% sure that, if he practiced that stance diligently, he would develop deviations.

The student began to argue with me. I did not argue back. There was no point. I had already explained myself clearly. I said there was nothing to argue about. Either he respects me enough to learn from me, or he should find another instructor.

I know what I practice, and I know what I teach. People are welcome to practice whatever they want, but in my school, they must do it my way. Period. There is no room for argument. Questions, yes. Argument, no.

It's ridiculous for a student to argue with me about the horse stance. I'm not going to change my methods for him. Like I said, I was 100% sure that his stance would cause problems. If he doesn't want to listen to me, fine. If he wants to test my theory on his own, fine. If he wants to learn from me, fine. But if he wants to argue, I'll show him the door.

I am Always Right

In that situation, I am always right. I am not going to condone or convert to another school's incorrect horse stance. In some situations, another school's horse stance could be both correct and different than ours, and that would be fine, but I'm still not going to convert to it. In that case, I'm right, and so are they. Nevertheless, if a student wants to learn from me, he must switch to my horse stance.

Of course, the instructor who teaches the bad horse stance will also say that he's right, and perhaps passionately defend his own stance. In the end, it's up to people to decide for themselves, hopefully by asking poignant questions. Do the students and instructors practicing that bad horse stance look healthy? Do they have internal power? Do the exhibit mental clarity? Do their eyes have shen? Are they happy? Etc.

My students are healthy and/or getting healthier. They have considerable power for the time they've spent in the art. They are happy inside of class and out. And they exhibit mental clarity (just look at Vanessa's post). Of course, I also exhibit these qualities, otherwise I would not be qualified to teach.

[Michael Durkin]

Yenisiri,

I was sad to see Michael Udel leave Shaolin Wahnam as I was on the same Kung Fu course that Michael Udel attended. We trained together, shared meals and discussions. I also enjoyed reading Michaels updates on his travels in China, which he did kindly keep me posted on.

With Michael's recent return, I was surprised to see him here, but also genuinely pleased to hear that he was so happy. But I also wondered why he didn't make amends for speaking like he did on another forum.

[Molly]

Hey Kevin and others,
I've been watching this discussion unfold over the last few days, and would like to point out a few things to clarify our position. I've never met Michael, but I read his statements on the other said forum awhile back and was very surprised to see his disresprectful responses. Sheesh- all did just now was a little bit of homework and I'm finding even more disrespect in his words. Firstly, I encourage anyone here to do a search of all of Michael's posts on this forum. I didn't even have to look at them in detail- almost all of them within the last year began with some rude tone or another.
Leaving aside Michael's words that Anthony Siheng quoted here, I'd like to share something else I found on that same forum, posted just a few short weeks before he reappeared here and started posting

Unfortunately for a lot of the truly nice rank and file people at SW trying to improve their lives, the answer is no. The shaolin wahnam Discussion Forum is an inculcation chamber engineered by Wong as a necessary part of his "teaching". For his stuff to work, his students must approach him with a completely open and receptive mind and the discussion forum provides the initial "brain-washing" and "bowing and scraping" training needed. Wong has a long list of rules for behavior in his presence, all of which are needed to maintain the right mood of never questioning, always assuming Wong is 100% right about everything, including apparently unimportant things like table etiquette. But Wong plays it so well, 'cause when you make a fauxpax in his presence, he's so gracious and forgiving, always the "good guy" who is helping you learn the right way to live.

You should have seen the blood pressure rise, I mean the British instructor absolutely flipped when I sat down to eat with Wong and I had the nerve to put my chopsticks in the main dish on the table. They informed me I'm supposed to use serving spoons to get the stuff to my own plate. I was criticized for not knowing Chinese (Cantonese no less! Dude, I live in Guangzhou, duh.) etiquette by several people who've never been to China. This all occurred in Malaysia. Nevermind if I was wrong or not, it's just the way Wong has such a tight control over their minds. They don't dare disagree with him.

Kevin, I'm not sure how familiar you are with traditional kung fu culture, but speaking of a master just by their name is extremely rude, for moreso if you are or were one of his students. Whereas this may seem extreme to most modern Westerners, this is quite the norm in Chinese culture and they are just as entitled to their opinions as you are to yours.

Moving along... "inculcation chamber"?! I don't dare criticize because my sifu has such a tight control over my mind?! Of course I and all my brothers and sisters would find that offensive. Sifu has never suggested we take his words as gospel. We are encouraged time and again to follow the instructions to the best of our abilities and make our own conclusions based on the results. I do not, nor do I believe anyone else here appreciates being referred to as automotons who are unable to think for themselves. I find it very insulting indeed. Michael has a lot of gall to say such words and then begin posting here again as if nothing had happened. Whether he means to or not, in doing so, he is insulting everyone in this school, including the "truly nice rank and file people" he likes so much.

I'd also like to point out here that many students here trained with other masters before they started training with Sifu. Some of them have even surpassed the skill levels of their previous masters. Yet, inspite of that, they still show respect for their previous masters and would never speak ill of them. This is a bit of courtesy that Michael quite flagrantly lacks.

But it's like Wahnam goes into overkill/overdrive to "avenge the wrong".

As for your statement here Kevin, I'd like to point out that that's what we in Wahnam here do. "Avenging the wrong" is part and parcel of our Ten Shaolin Laws,

Required to respect the master, honour the Moral Way and love fellow disciples as brothers and sisters.

Required to train the Shaolin arts diligently, and as a pre-requisite, to be physically and mentally healthy.

Required to be filial to parents, be respectful to the elderly, and protective of the young.

Required to uphold righteousness, and to be both wise and courageous.

Forbidden to be ungrateful and unscrupulous, ignoring the Laws of man and heaven.

Forbidden to rape, molest, do evil, steal, rob, abduct or cheat.

Forbidden to associate with wicked people; forbidden to do any sorts of wickedness.

Forbidden to abuse power, be it official or physical; forbidden to oppress the good and bully the kind.

Obliged to be humane, compassionate and spread love, and to realize everlasting peace and happiness for all people.

Obliged to be chivalrous and generous, to nurture talents and pass on the Shaolin arts to deserving disciples.

Obviously, Michael is no longer a part of this school is not duty bound to obey these laws, but we are. I believe we are in this case upholding righteousness, and being wise and courageous. We would not let Michael say the things he did and return here as if nothing happened without a public apology. Were we to ignore this, we would be abasing these laws.
Many students here find that upholding these laws helps them in their daily life to be better people. So I'd like to highlight some things about Michael's above quoted post, in derefence to our laws- that he went against, and therefore will hinder, not help him to become a better person.
-Michael did NOT respect the master, as we have already seen at numerous points here, nor did he honor the Moral Way, nor love fellow disciples as brothers and sisters. Again, search his previous posts, see the tone of his words. To insult our Sifu and us brazenly in public, then return here expecting open arms.
-Michael WAS ungrateful to Sifu for receiving such a priceless art from him in his words and actions.
-Michael associated with- okay maybe those other forum members are not wicked, but they're certainly not nice folks with a good influence- people. Hanging with jerks turns you into one.

As I said, Michael is not duty bound to uphold these laws. But I think Michael also knows and understands that bad actions breed bad karma. I wish he'd think a bit more about what he has said and why he should apologize. We're not just parading around on moral high horses here. We're people with feelings too.

As for why we can't let it go. Well, we can. Nobody will loose sleep over this. I've had fair-weather friends like Michael before who've treated me like garbage, never apologized when I asked them to, then came worming around later as if everything was hunky dory. I didn't hold onto my anger, but I certainly didn't act like their friend either. Whew, that's one long post. I hope that sheds a little more light on the subject at hand for you Kevin.
Just another "rank and file" , Molly