The artist formerly known as...

[8nsteen8]

-

Michael,

I feel you posting the pictures is your way of showing you miss us all. Why not just make an apology and talk from the heart how you feel?

/Niklas

[joko]

Wow!

Hi Michael,

I am very surprised that you wrote those posts in other forum, quoted in post #43 above. Certainly that is not acceptable, if you still want to join us here in this WahNam Discussion Forum.

Sincerely, all I can say for the moment is to quote a maxim, which had helped me before.

Learn to say sorry sincerely. It costs you nothing except your ego, but solves many problems.

Best wishes,
Joko

[Michael Udel]

Niklas, thank you for your very kind words. I know you meant them from the heart. Forgive me if I don't respond to everything you said, but perhaps you have articulated the obvious about missing people, which is certainly to be expected.

Joko, I appreciate what you say, which is why my only purpose was to post a few photos. I have no other expectation or goal here.

Best wishes,
Michael

[Antonius]

Joko, I appreciate what you say, which is why my only purpose was to post a few photos. I have no other expectation or goal here.

Clearly, you didn't appreciate what he had to say, Michael. Here's what he said:

Learn to say sorry sincerely. It costs you nothing except your ego, but solves many problems.

I doubt you're going to listen to me, but I'll try anyway: have you considered that the apology is for you, not for us? I couldn't care less about your apology. As I said earlier, I know what I know from direct experience. The intellectual musings of a neophyte in the internal arts can't change that. So why would I seek an apology?

Because I wouldn't wish ill even upon my enemies. You have made yourself into my enemy with your words and actions, Michael, and yet I'm still trying to help you. Why? Because it is obvious to me that your inability to apologize is a sign of a deep blockage. I know because I once suffered from this blockage. In short, it's a sign of illness, and as I said, I wouldn't wish that upon my enemies.

I understand that you probably don't want my help. After all, I'm just one of those delued suckers who buys into Sifu Wong's marketing scam, right? But pretend for a moment that I'm not me, and that we're not enemies. Good advice is good advice, no matter what the source. So here's my advice: Do yourself a favor and meditate with an open heart on Joko's quote above.

Best,

[Michael Udel]

In unity there are only friends

Anthony, you are not in a position to make me something that I am not, and I am not anyone’s enemy, nor do I consider anyone to be my enemy. How could I, as this would only emphasize the illusion of separation between individuals and fail to understand the underlying unity of all things?

I agree that you have more experience than I do with internal arts in terms of years, but I am older than you, which is obvious in your melodramatic declaration. Saying in public that someone is your enemy does no good for anyone; this is a lesson that you may yet learn, but not from me: this knowledge will only come from your own experience through the years ahead as you grow older and wiser.

Michael

[Maxime]

Michael,

let me translate some of your 'smart' words in intelligible ones:

my Sifu is taking advantage of the dumbness and foolishness of his students (us), using his so-called writing skills to appear more skillful than he really is. My fellow classmates are asking questions which are not worth deserving a direct answer. Some of them are unwise simply because they are a few years younger than you are. (besides, this statement simply shows your lack of experience in life: wisdom is not necessary linked to the number of years, especially when the difference is only about a few years).

"Saying in public that someone is your enemy does no good for anyone": first, we at Shaolin Wahnam are martial warriors, not youngsters hanging around in nightclubs. Secondly, this forum is our School and our Sifu's home. Thirdly, we value our arts like our own lives. Four, you are the one badmouthing publicly, on others forum... Nobody, nobody from Shaolin Wahnam has done the same elsewhere.

So are you kidding or what, Mister Wiseman?

You stab us behind our back (here and elsewhere), now you come here hiding your knife again behind a smile (your smart words and your nice pictures). What are you expecting, that we welcome you as an old friend?

We might be dumb or stupid, but we are not blind.

Maxime

[8nsteen8]

Michael,

Trying to hide your emotions by using your intellect to convince you that everything is fine will just hinder your progress. Sooner or later do you have to face them.

/Niklas

[Kevin]

Ok, I just wanted to throw in my two-cents here, although I'm not sure where to start. I guess first off I just want to say that I'm not taking sides here. I don't know Michael personally, and I'm also not a Wahnam student currently.
Michael Udel comes back to the Forum to post some lovely pictures, and then not long after, he's being swarmed. I realize that before he left the Forum a while back, there had been disagreements between he and the Wahnam family. But at the start of this thread, when Michael stated he was leaving the Forum some months back, many Wahnam students and Sifus wished him well and told him he was welcome back anytime.

Now I understand Sifu Korahais' post (that had the quote from Michael taken from another Forum) is what seems to be the main cause of the current problem. I read it, and I'm a bit confused. The first paragraph, by Michael, simply states that he attended a Wahnam Intensive Kung Fu course, but was new to Kung Fu and the remote learning didn't work for him, so he found another teacher. Nothing at all wrong with those words, or actions.
The other 2 quotes have the names BaguaMonk and Kaitain in front of them, so I'm assuming that these are two other people. I can see how their comments might bother those in the Wahnam family, but they said that stuff, not Michael (again, assuming I'm reading it all correctly).

After Michael posted those pictures, Wahnam students LeeWeiJoo and Joko both were positive and kind in responding to Michael. But then Sifu Collett responds, taking major offense to what was obvioulsy an innocent, harmless joke by Michael(actually making fun of himself) about Michael being referred to as a Sifu. I honestly can't see how that could be taken any way other than the joke that Michael meant (again, a joke about himself). And then, many other Wahnam Sifus start posting about Michael in a similar fashion.

I truly enjoy, and look forward to, coming to this Forum and reading, discussing, etc. But sometimes I get the feeling that the Wahnam Sifus are just looking for insults that aren't there. Someone makes a statement, perhaps jokingly or innocently, and before clarification is made, the Wahnam Sifus present something that sounds like, "You have offended my family and the Shaolin Temple-Apologize or face the consequences".

Sifu Korahais stated that Michael's lack of apology shows that he has some deep blockage somewhere. That sounds to me like someone saying, "You don't believe what I do, you're not going along with my way of thinking-I'm right, so if you're not with me, then you must have a blockage somewhere".
Maybe Michael isn't apologizing for the simple fact that he believes that he has nothing to apologize for. And maybe he's right. Or maybe Wahnam is right. Or maybe it's somewhere in between. Again, no disrespect is meant to Michael or the Wahnam family. I'm just throwing out my opinion.

On the other hand, lets assume for a moment that the Wahnam Sifus are 100% correct in their responses to Michael's return and some of his past posts. I know that wisdom and compassion are the hallmarks around here, but what about Forgiveness. That's a pretty big one. So you take offense to something said. Why demand and try to force an apology. It has been stated that the Wahnam family believes the apology would be for Michael's sake, not their own. If that's true, and it doesn't effect the Wahnam family either way, then why not just let it go. Accept it, forgive the wrong you think was committed against you, and move on.

Anyway, those were nice pictures Michael. Hope things are going well for you.

Best to all,
Kevin

[Mark Blohm]

Now I understand Sifu Korahais' post (that had the quote from Michael taken from another Forum) is what seems to be the main cause of the current problem. I read it, and I'm a bit confused. The first paragraph, by Michael, simply states that he attended a Wahnam Intensive Kung Fu course, but was new to Kung Fu and the remote learning didn't work for him, so he found another teacher. Nothing at all wrong with those words, or actions.

The other 2 quotes have the names BaguaMonk and Kaitain in front of them, so I'm assuming that these are two other people.

Kevin,

Those are not quotes. Michael is responding to comments made by those two individuals; those are all Michael's words.

I went to a Shaolin Wahnam Kungfu Intensive Course (5 days of practice) one year ago in Malaysia. I was totally new to kungfu and the course and remote learning didn't work for me so I eventually found a local Taiji teacher here in Guangzhou, with whom I've been studying for about 8 months. Prior to that, I learned the Beijing Orthodox 24 Form Taijiquan from a teacher in Plano, TX (Dallas area) and practiced for six months before moving.

BaguaMonk: I think your comments about Wong Kiew-Kit are very accurate. He works very hard to make sure people perceive him the way you've described. His books and online stuff have all been polished to a lustery shine over many, many years to make him appear reasonable and knowledgeable in everything he says. NOT that he isn't necessarily, but his public persona is what brings in the customers, so he doesn't answer on his forum. He does this monthly Q & A on his web site where he demonstrates his wisdom. It's generally accurate, but quite simplistic and always suggests much more than he actually delivers or has experienced. Not exactly bait and switch, but just a very suggestive and creative marketing approach to kungfu sales.

He tells a lot of stories of second and third hand experiences of other people doing qingong (art of flying), people walking through walls, and fighting, but on these topics, especially fighting, he's never said he had any of his own experiences, except a general reference to having been in a few fights in his younger days. His students seem to follow his lead and obviously believe that if someone else, somewhere, somewhen has done something, it means they can do it, too. Kind of like saying, "If Michael Jordan can slam dunk after a running start from the foul line, then I can, too even though I've never trained for it or tried to do it"

Kaitain: I enjoyed reading your non-confrontational posts on the SW forum. Somehow you managed to keep something of an actual conversation going despite all the attempts at sidetracking you with various nonsense. As I mentioned above, most of the SW students think that since Wong Kiew-Kit has mentioned that someone else did something years ago, it means they can all do it today after a year or two of practicing completely unrelated skills. You kept asking them quite simply if they ever trained what they're claiming, and most evaded your questions. In recent memory, you had the most productive conversation on that forum for an outsider. The accusations of disrespect will just continue to grow and perhaps become even more creative than their current approach of taking a poll on your level of disrespectfulness. If you're really inquisitive, they'll put an insult under your user name. If you like testing your ability to neutralize conflict, there's possibly nowhere better to go than the SW forum with common sense questions.

Best wishes,
Michael

These statements are completely untrue and are very disrespectful. Sifu Wong taught Michael high-level skills, and is repayed with this?

Where did respect go? Did it just disappear?


Mark

[Kevin]

Thanks for clearing that up for me Mark. I appreciate it.

Even though I misunderstood that quote, I think everything else in my previous post (minus that one paragraph) is relevant.

Ok, so Michael said those things. He had stated that Shaolin Wahnam Kung Fu was not for him, that he found another teacher, and also that he was leaving the Wahnam Forum for a while. Everyone wished him well. He has no affiliation with Wahnam. He does not owe anything.
He said those things on another Forum. What he said is how he truly feels and is his own opinion based on his experience with Wahnam (this Forum, the Intensive Kung Fu Course, etc.). That is his right as a living, thinking human being. Just because his ideas, thoughts, opinions don't agree with or go along with those of the Wahnam Family, that doesn't make him "wrong". That doesn't mean he has a "blockage". I don't see how expressing a personal opinion, even if someone on the other side doesn't like it, makes that person an "enemy".

I have read and re-read those posts Michael made on the other Forum. I have to say that I don't find anything that should be causing such an offense. Again, he gives his own personal opinion and thoughts about GrandMaster Wong and Wahnam. I totally understand that he's not raving about how great Wahnam is, or saying how much of a better person he is for having been exposed to Wahnam. And I understand that those in the Wahnam family feel strongly about GrandMaster Wong, and the Wahnam school.
But, no matter what you're talking about, you have to understand and accept that there are going to be others out there who don't feel the same as you, believe the same thing as you. And that's ok. That's their right. It doesn't mean that it's now your duty to prove that you know best.

Someone is not automatically insulting you or your enemy because they have a difference of opinion. I see those in the Wahnam family posting (and defending) all the time about what they teach/believe, and why they do so.
But if someone comes along and doesn't believe in something near and dear to Wahnam, you usually won't hear, "Thanks for offering your side-we don't agree, but it's interesting to hear a totally different opinion-The End". Often it is taken as a personal attack/insult, and the non-Wahnam poster must be proven wrong.

I've read at times Wahnam members tell those who are offering a different opinion/belief that if they don't like it here, just leave. Surely the goal is not to drive everyone away who is not a Wahnam member? I really enjoy this Forum. I wouldn't want outsiders or first-time posters to be afraid of offering up anything that wasn't pro-Wahnam. But I know at times I've been reading something by a non-Wahnam member that opposes something Wahnam teaches/believes, and I've thought to myself, "Uh-oh, they're gonna get it now".

I hope I'm not making the Wahnam members, students or Sifus, sound like they're out for verbal fights. I enjoy reading their posts the most. And they seem like nice people.
I can see how much GrandMaster Wong and Wahnam mean to them, what it has added to their lives. I'm just saying you have to understand that not everyone is going to see it the same way, agree with you, accept what you believe. And just because they disagree (sometimes totally & completely), that doesn't mean they are trying to be rude or insulting.

The tree that doesn't bend is easily broken.

Best to all in, and out of, the Wahnam Family

Kevin

[Antonius]

Sifu Korahais stated that Michael's lack of apology shows that he has some deep blockage somewhere. That sounds to me like someone saying, "You don't believe what I do, you're not going along with my way of thinking-I'm right, so if you're not with me, then you must have a blockage somewhere".

I'm quite busy with school today, but quickly -- heck no. That is not at all what I'm saying, and I'm sorry if it came off that way.

An apology is not necessarily related to being right or wrong. An apology is an offering of peace and a way of admitting that there are multiple perspectives on an issue. Michael is entitled to his opinions, as is everyone else. He is also entitled to express them, although I feel there are better and worse ways to go about this (that part is my opinion). But making an apology is, as Joko said, a simply way to solve many problems.

In short, the blockage I see does not relate to Michael's differing opinions, but rather his refusal to apologize. Had Michael apologized upon his return here, it actually would have strengthened his argument. But his refusal tells me (my opinion, again) that he is not actually secure in his opinions.

Kevin, let's say that you were a Republican, and some of your friends were Democrats, and you made some strong political statements that hurt their feelings. Upon attending a party at one of their homes a few weeks later, would you apologize for your words? Yes, I think you would. And would that apology necessarily mean that you no longer believe what you believe? Nope.

If Michael is here, as he suggests, in a peaceful and friendly manner, then an apology is necessary. It's just basic civility. A lot of people here have met him and consider him a friend, and yet he completely disregards their feelings and refuses to apologize. That is why I call him an enemy. As I say often, I call a spade a spade. I know who my friends are and who my enemies are, and I don't mince words about it.

[Antonius]

I should add that Michael also made other strong statements on this forum, although I do not have time to go fishing for them.

Furthermore, regarding Michael's quote above, much of it is not just opinion, but false information. For example, Sifu Wong has plenty of real fighting experience, but Michael is not aware of this fact. Michael is also a marital neophyte, and has no good way of measuring fighting prowess, unlike more experienced people with real fighting experience, like me, Kai, and Ronan. Furthermore, street-fighting experience is not a pre-requisite for high-level fighting skills, so the entire argument is moot.

Instead of jumping to false conclusions and broadcasting them publicly, it would have been prudent for Michael to either keep his mouth shut, or rephrase things as questions.

[Kevin]

Sifu Korahais, I think I do understand what you are saying about apology.

Let me go with your example of a strong political, or religious, belief. Let's say I'm talking with someone (who happens to have the opposite belief as I do), and in expressing my side strongly, I hurt their feelings. A few days later, I'm at that person's home. As you stated, it would be good for me to apologize. However, here's the important thing-I wouldn't be apologizing for what I had said or for my beliefs/opinions. I would be apologizing for hurting their feelings. In other words-"I'm sorry" (that your feelings were hurt by what I said, even though I stand by it), not-"I'm sorry" (that I stated my beliefs and said what I said).

On the other side of the coin, even if Michael chooses not to apologize (and I'm not taking sides, not saying whether he should or not), can't the Wahnam Family take the initiative and just forgive, let go, and move on?

I don't think Michael was stating as fact that GrandMaster Wong didn't have much fighting experience. He just stated that GrandMaster Wong has mentioned some fights in his younger days, and that's all he has heard about.
And I don't think he said anything at all about GrandMaster Wong's fighting prowess, at least not in the quotes you posted.

Best to all,
Kevin

[Antonius]

He clearly suggests that Sifu Wong does not have enough fighting experience, and thus cannot teach fighting. Look:

but on these topics, especially fighting, he's never said he had any of his own experiences, except a general reference to having been in a few fights in his younger days. His students seem to follow his lead and obviously believe that if someone else, somewhere, somewhen has done something, it means they can do it, too. Kind of like saying, "If Michael Jordan can slam dunk after a running start from the foul line, then I can, too even though I've never trained for it or tried to do it"

He says "especially fighting", and then goes on to suggest that we just "follow his lead" and believe that we can also do such things even though we "never trained for it or tried to do it". As I mentioned, this is completely false and misleading. It totally disregards our philosophy of direct experience.

For example, I don't think that I can break a bottom brick because "someone else, somewhere, somewhen" did it. I know that I can break a bottom brick because I've done it. Michael is basically suggesting not only that Sifu Wong cannot break a bottom brick (or fight, or use internal force, or whatever), but that the rest of us cannot either, and that we simply take things on blind faith. This is not true, as I have said several times now. Not only can Sifu demonstrate these abilities, but so can we.

He's not speaking from direct experience, as you suggested. Nor are these opinions he's stating; they are falsities.

[Darryl]

Hi Kevin,

I frequently describe this Forum as an extension of the course or classroom. Staying with this metaphor, here's how I see the situation.

A junior student is rude to their Instructor and leaves. Later on, they come back, but not to apologise. When asked if they intend to apologise, they state that they still don't feel they are at fault.

Simple put, if any of my own students acted like that, I wouldn't have them as a student. If they turned up at a future class and sat down in the corner, I'd ask them to leave. If they replied "Oh, I'm not leaving. I came to hand out some pictures", I'd see them repeating the same behaviour as before. It would be pointless to attempt to teach them anything, because they wouldn't even listen. This is an example of an undeserving student.

Shaolin Wahnam is not a school where the student's whims take precedence. I only train deserving students. I value my own time. Anthony Sihing, whom you are criticising, is obviously more forgiving than I am. He is taking the time to talk to Michael, to try to reach him. When you try to defend Michael, Anthony takes the time to talk to you. I'm not interested in wasting my time on Michael. Until he realises his own actions, I see him as a a waste of my time.

If he does apologise, I would be very happy. Not because I had "won", but because he would be a better person. By apologising, he would improve both his own life and the lives of those around him. By not apologising, he demonstrates the same negative qualities that he had before.

The last time he was here, Michael insisted that he wasn't using the strategy "Borrow a Knife to Murder". And now?