What is genuine, traditional Taijiquan?

[DarkCosmoz]

Great kung-fu is a matter of developing a specific force or skill to such a high level that you are almost unstoppable except by another master. This is the guy with such a good punch that you get hammered every time you spar with him. No matter what you do, you get finished with that one technique.

That is very nicely put Joe . Your statement reminded me of the stories of Guo Yun Shen and his Divine Crushing Fist.

[Mark Blohm]

Interestingly, new is often better in MA. Sifu's style may be better than the styles of older masters, because it is geared towards modern needs, what happens in modern fights, etc.

I don't think Wahnam Taijichuan is better than what masters taught in the past. I recall Sifu saying that his level comes nowhere near what Yang Lu Chan achieved. It is because modern Taijichuan has been watered down so much (as evidenced by absurd claims that Taijichuan forms are not for fighting) that Sifu teaches it. I think Sifu is in a unique position to restore the essence to Taijichuan because he has reached such a high level in Shaolin-chuan. Taijichuan comes from Shaolin. Masters of Xingyichuan, Baguazhang or other internal arts(not to mention external martial arts) wouldn't be in such a position.

Mark

[yeniseri]

el jefe

Ronan,

I am an authority-no better nor worse. a legend in my own mind, no doubt but expression of ideas and differences is part of the dao. your taijiquan is probably better than mine so i give benefit to you since your speech is spoken adroitely and to the point.

Let each man show his art by how he repsonds to life! That is the best kungfu!

[Jonny Say]

Shen-Fa

I am enjoying reading this thread very much, nice work Rob Sisook.

One thing that stuck out for me was the way Kaitan described his Shen-Fa. He talked alot about it being a representation of the internal mechanics, but he did not talk about energy flow (a main characteristic of Tai Chi Chuan), he talked about core muscles etc.

We know in Shaolin Wahnam that the forms have been crystalized by the past masters the way they are because of many factors. Two major factors are the advantages they present in combat and secondly to allow the optimun energy flow for health, vitality and combat efficiency.

Therefore if an exponent is using internal force then his external form will represent this, and when sparring it will be clearly defined as Tai Chi Chuan like the photos of Rob Sisook. I personally did not see this in Kaitans footage, he may be using his core muscles very well but this is not using chi.

[yeniseri]

energia vital

To my mind, energy flow is a modern embellishment and has nothing to do with taijiquan. Nevertheless a secondary by product (to my mind)Being 'internal', it manifests in each person accodingly therefore even a non taijiquan person has this energy flow also.

Any 'relaxation response' can generate this hyperemia to induce a type of euphoric (endorphin response) feeling but it should be something that becomes natural and not seeking to generate it.
There may be different subjective levels of it but it is still there!

[Andrew]

To my mind, energy flow is a modern embellishment and has nothing to do with taijiquan.

Didn't you forget the ?? If not then

Andrew

[yeniseri]

gracia a todos

Thank you sir

[Chiahua]

I think DaiSihing Kai put it pretty succinctly:

1. most importance, STANCE-TRAINING ZHAN ZHUANG
2. FOODWORK; BUFA
3. Application
4. Sticky hands, Tuishou
5. freesparring, Sanda
6. forms

[yeniseri]

yes

Ah men, at last!

[Mark Blohm]

To my mind, energy flow is a modern embellishment and has nothing to do with taijiquan.

Wouldn't it be wonderful if Taijichuan was much, much more than what you have experienced before? Why not try it for yourself? Isn't it worth a shot?

Mark

[Antonius]

I think that Yeniseri is talking about "Yi" as opposed to "Qi." The taijiquan classics don't talk much about qi, at least not directly. Instead, they talk about yi.

However, the classics most certainly talk about qi indirectly. What's the point of yi? To lead qi. What's the point of the soft movements of Taijiquan? To encourage a smooth flow of qi. How do you overcome Yi doesn't flow; qi does. A boxer has yi, but because he does not train in a way that is conducive to a smooth flow of qi, he does not have internal force.

A lot of this is semantics, but when push comes to shove (pun intended ), Taijiquan, and all internal martial arts, are working intimately with qi.

[Markus Kahila]

These days many are coming to our forum to tell their frank opinions about chi, internal force, and traditional Chinese martial arts. They’re very welcome to do so (provided that they display a certain level of respect and general courtesy), because it is beneficial to us as well: As a result we can very often have inspiring and lively discussion here based on these claims. This is why we have always welcomed guests here and valued their contributions.



Regarding the topic at hand:

Making statements at this forum such as that chi doesn’t exist, or that internal force is just a manifestation of muscle/joint co-ordination, is a bit like going to a yachting club to try to convince sailors that sailing has nothing to do with the wind. It is both very amusing, and also serves to remind us how lucky we are to be practicing the real thing.

Anyone who practices Shaolin Wahnam Kungfu, Shaolin Wahnam Taijiquan, or Shaolin Wahnam Chi Kung correctly is consciously and consistently working with energy, or chi, and internal force. Not merely with air, or muscles and joints, but with chi. Energy, that is transmittable and receivable even from a distance, and has a material reality although it is normally not visible to the naked eye – much like the air we breathe.

The same goes also for practitioners of genuine, traditional Taijiquan. We do this every day, so insisting that we actually don’t is very funny, and frankly, a bit pointless on your behalf. But as mentioned, your comments are always valued here. Please continue making them, even (and especially) the unintentionally funny ones!


Chuckling from the heart,

Markus

[KungFuJoe]

don't think Wahnam Taijichuan is better than what masters taught in the past.

I meant that it is better for us as students than what was taught in the past. What you can get for 6 hours of training with Sifu is impressive. Who knows what you would get from Lu Chaun after 6 hours? The time of day maybe? It's too late to find out!

But Lu Chaun was best known for his fighting ability. He is not known for his chi kung, whereas Sifu Wong seems to be known for chi kung especially. I don't know if Lu Chaun knew all the chi kung arts that Sifu Wong does, or if he could use them to benefit others to such an extent. If the Yangs were chi kung masters at a level like Sifu's, it doesn't seem to be obviously reflected in their lineage holders. Most of the old Yang inheritors tend to emphasize combat training and fine tuned control more than building internal force through the various types of chi kung.

Would Lu Chaun have been able to defeat moderns like the Gracies or Machado? Not a clue. And that discussion would bring is into the realm of bad kung-fu as listed above.

[Antonius]

Would Lu Chaun have been able to defeat moderns like the Gracies or Machado?

Are you on a first-name basis with Yang Lu Chan?

Yes, he absolutely would have been able to defeat modern fighters. How can I know this if Yang Lu Chan is long deceased, and I never met him? Because I can do the math.

Sifu Wong thinks that he would be like a child compared to Yang Lu Chan. I know how powerful my sifu is, so I can do the math and figure out roughly how powerful Yang Lu Chan was. If Sifu can kill with one gentle strike (which he can), then imagine what Yang Lu Chan could do.

Once you really get into internal force training, you start to view a whole new paradigm. In that paradigm, single and double-leg takedowns are just suicide. It's like offering your head on a platter.

[KungFuJoe]

"Yang" isn't all that descriptive. I'm just fond of short forms. TCC and SKF are MAs... classified as TCMAs as opposed MMAs, and definately IMAs.

Sifu's word on it is good enough for me. He said in one of the Q&As that he has a large collection of Taoist classics and can read the old Chinese. I on the other hand don't know much about Yang Lu Chan other than what's in Sifu Wong's books and a few others. I find it odd though that people who claim an old Yang lineage do not seem to be able to perform or teach the feats attributed to Yang Lu Chan. Did he just not teach anyone?

Killing an internationally recognized jujitsu master with the touch of a finger is quite a feat. I don't think too many in the Yang lineage would claim that capability. I bear in mind that we all thought the Macau fight was a battle of masters until we actually saw the video.

And despite his accomplishments, Sifu is after all very modest...