Grappling & Kung-Fu--Myth & Reality

[juszczec]

Originally posted by push hands
okay some links and vids about internal force...but then again the video you will see you will say "that seemed fake"...yes because the actual demonstration is not being performed on you. but to the person on the receiving end they can tell you that the power is awesome....

i don't even know why we have to convince anyone regarding internal arts. when people get comfortable in a certain plain of truth they stay there...but for others who truly serch will gain.

http://www.yellowbamboo.com/

http://www.wenwu.org/DefaultShow3.asp?file=pyrogenesis

http://www.wenwu.org/DefaultShow3.asp?file=telekinesis

Your posted url's are counterproductive to the argument. I don't think any of the Wahnam members are saying chi can knock down a herd of men charging at you full blast, or that it can light things on fire or move objects thru space.

Are they?

Mark

[Fat Sau]

Your posted url's are counterproductive to the argument. I don't think any of the Wahnam members are saying chi can knock down a herd of men charging at you full blast, or that it can light things on fire or move objects thru space.

Hi Mark,

This again will complicate the argument again, but I believe that cultivation of energy can achieve these feats and far more. But I think this part of the argument should be left out for now. Only the privileged few will ever see or feel this.

Actually the Kostas Danaos at wenwu.org has written some very interesting books (Magus Of Java, Nei Kung). If you want to know more about internal Kungfu entwined with spirituality (metaphysics), this will give you a good idea of the most extreme feats.

Jon

[push hands]

sorry...i was merely providing some visuals for Truewrestler and Schermitore.

all i'm saying is there is only one "truth" but it has many levels.

[push hands]

hi juszczec,

i see that you are from ohio...you might want to check out Guy Savelli. here is his website...very nice man.

http://www.worldkungfu.com/

you should pay him a visit and ask for demonstration...be nice and respectful of course.

[juszczec]

push hands

Thanks for the link. I'll give it a read and possibly get in touch with Mr. Savelli.

Believe it or not, this is what I was hoping for - someone in my area with these kinds of skills.

Thanks

Mark

[Antonius]

I don't think any of the Wahnam members are saying chi can knock down a herd of men charging at you full blast, or that it can light things on fire or move objects thru space.

Not that I've ever seen.

[push hands]

juszczec,

not a problem...i'm always happy to share.

let me know how your visit goes.

[Charles David]

Bookmarked

Its far too late for me to read all of this thread now, so I will put it on top of the pile to look at later.

With Shaolin Salute,

[Kaitain]

Hello - my first post here, thought I'd contribute.

I'm a Yang style taiji instructor in the UK (Brighton), I train with John Ding - it's good stuff. I can hit people very hard and 'internally' (if you want to call it that - it's just good mechanics). http://www.eternal-internal.com/video/bad_demo.AVI is a blurry clip of me doing a demo last weekend. The second half shows some of the striking I do - the last one injured my student quite badly, through the armour he was wearing (you can see him crumple from the pain in his liver - last time we use that armour and no gloves). That covers my credentials regarding Taijiquan and 'internal power'.

Previously I have trained in Wado Ryu Karate, Muay Thai, Escrima and Fencing. In total I have trained for around 20 years of my 32 in existence.

I used to think that stopping a takedown would be easy - just hit them on the way in, job done. Nope - shoots come from around punching distance and are usually attempted off the back of a strike. Consequently it's very difficult to hit someone hard when your structure isn't 'set'. A strike comes in high, then the shoot comes in low - it is difficult to do anything other than sprawl. A drill that I train my guys with is to work combinations of strikes and then to shoot in when they feel like it - the guy defending usually gets taken down unless he just maintains distance, in which case he's not really achieving anything in the fight. Sometimes they land a hit on the guy coming in, but none of them believe they could do it hard enough to stop the shoot. A guy I respect greatly uses the phrase "train for failure" - I've taken it for my own training mantra. What if I cant stop the shoot and I get taken down - what then? One of the popular answers here seems to be "Tiger Claw" - I don't want to offend, but that's just fantasy.

Unless you train with a good ground-grappling system, you cannot know what it's like to be taken down for the first time when you know nothing about groundwork. I started no-gi BJJ a few years back but I only train sporadically - Im not interested in being particularly great on the deck, I just wanted to know what to do down there. Taijiquan has skills that translate - sensitivity, neutralising, softness - if you dont know the techniques that work down there then those skills are useless. If you are mounted on your back in a fight, the guy is going to try and armlock you, he's going to beat you into a pulp. What then? You cant strike with power from your back with someone on you - whole body power requires the whole body to be available. Yes you can gouge and poke and rip things - but you're on your back being punched in the face, how are you going to have time to do that?

The floor is a dumb place to be in a fight, if you're mounted and being punched, what if his friend starts kicking you in the head? How are you going to get up? Can you get someone off of you whilst they're punching you, or do you roll onto your front to stop being punched in the face?

You dont have to be a blue belt in BJJ to handle yourself on the ground - but you need to train with people who know that arena and can show you the techniques and positions that get you out of it. I train with my teachers because in their arenas they can completely dominate me, it's not even a competition. If you believe you have that in your stand-up, why not seek it in your groundwork?

Anyway - just a few thoughts

Paul

[Kaitain]

apologies - hadnt realised someone had just bumped this to the top of the forum.

[George]

This is a nice old thread...

Hello - my first post here, thought I'd contribute.

Welcome

I used to think that stopping a takedown would be easy - just hit them on the way in, job done. Nope - shoots come from around punching distance and are usually attempted off the back of a strike. Consequently it's very difficult to hit someone hard when your structure isn't 'set'. A strike comes in high, then the shoot comes in low - it is difficult to do anything other than sprawl.

I'm not sure what you mean by "your structure isn't set", but I would guess that it means that the stances are bad (unless you mean something else entirely.)

I got to practice countering frontal takedowns during the Intensive Course in Malaysia a few months ago (and during a Warrior Project course a few years ago as well) and it was not that difficult technically. The skill required is a different matter and this would increase with the skill of the person attempting the takedown (this is obvious though.)

the guy defending usually gets taken down unless he just maintains distance, in which case he's not really achieving anything in the fight.

Only if the spacing is bad, and probably stances as well. The Bow-arrow stance is excellent for this.

One of the popular answers here seems to be "Tiger Claw" - I don't want to offend, but that's just fantasy.

I don't want to offend, but no, it's not. That said, it is an advanced technique that only a few of us (myself not included, yet) can use. For the rest of us there are simpler techniques that can be used (providing the skills are there.)


Best wishes,


P.S. I will be thinking of this thread when we practice the counters in a few weeks in Edinburgh.

[Jonny Say]

Dear Sifu Paul

Firstly welcome to the forum. Its great to have someone with your martial experience to add to the discussions, I look forward to hearing more. I think this topic has had a lot of discussion and you have raised some excellent points:

I'm a Yang style taiji instructor in the UK (Brighton), I train with John Ding - it's good stuff. I can hit people very hard and 'internally' (if you want to call it that - it's just good mechanics).

I find this interesting and it would be worth discussing further. Not in this post as Id like to talk about the grappling points. But we at Shaolin Wahnam believe that Internal striking is more than just good mechanics (although this is important), it is the combination of jing, chi and shen. There are many threads on this topic, it would be interesting to hear your perspective on one of those threads.

I used to think that stopping a takedown would be easy - just hit them on the way in, job done. Nope - shoots come from around punching distance and are usually attempted off the back of a strike.

I agree it is very difficult, especially when it comes in a combination.

Consequently it's very difficult to hit someone hard when your structure isn't 'set'. A strike comes in high, then the shoot comes in low - it is difficult to do anything other than sprawl. .

I completely agree with you that shoots are very difficult to counter, although in Shaolin Wahnam we always aim to have our structure "set". Perhaps you could expand on what you mean by not being set?

I agree that it is very hard and takes much skill, but with correct footwork and skill level I believe it is possible.

Leaving a side my own personal experience my training partner was describing a bout he saw recently in UFC. The counter that the fighter used against the shoot was similar to one that we use, this was working against a professional fighter who trains to knock out with shoots. Perhaps Jamie Siheng could describe this bout further?

The basic jist was that every time the shoot came in the opponent would retreat with footwork and kneel on the attacker. The shoot was neutralised everytime and the combatant went on to win the bout.

We use a similar technique when we retreat and neutralise the shoot with our stances whilst at the same time striking (almost identical to the UFC, only using stances).

Sometimes they land a hit on the guy coming in, but none of them believe they could do it hard enough to stop the shoot. A guy I respect greatly uses the phrase "train for failure" - I've taken it for my own training mantra. .

I would agree it is very important to be prepared for failure. We would describe this as the principle "safety first". I agree one strike would not be enough, a follow up is needed (unless the defender has high levels of internal force).

What if I cant stop the shoot and I get taken down - what then? One of the popular answers here seems to be "Tiger Claw" - I don't want to offend, but that's just fantasy.

Here I would agree and diagree. There are very few people on the forum that have this level of Tiger Claw so I agree that it is not a good counter for most of us on the ground. But high level masters with specialised Tiger Claw force can rip muscle from tendons (numerous historical accounts and the experience of our Sigung confirm this). But I would reitterate this is after many years of force training, and so it is fruitless for most of us to use this counter or talk about it.

Unless you train with a good ground-grappling system, you cannot know what it's like to be taken down for the first time when you know nothing about groundwork. I started no-gi BJJ a few years back but I only train sporadically - Im not interested in being particularly great on the deck, I just wanted to know what to do down there.

I agree that it is important to train with ground fighters so as to know how to get back up, or release. There are many of my Kung Fu brothers who have much experience in grappling (including one Master in grappling) so we are lucky to benefit from their vast experience.

Taijiquan has skills that translate - sensitivity, neutralising, softness - if you dont know the techniques that work down there then those skills are useless. If you are mounted on your back in a fight, the guy is going to try and armlock you, he's going to beat you into a pulp. What then? You cant strike with power from your back with someone on you - whole body power requires the whole body to be available.

I completely agree that many skills transfer to the ground. I have found that when Kung FU principles are applied to the ground one can not loose one's breath, neutralise and release to get back on to our feet (our fighting range) very well. One can release to give enough space to strike from the ground, this is very difficult, but as we use force from our dan tien we can still strike even if much of the body is neutralised.

The floor is a dumb place to be in a fight, if you're mounted and being punched, what if his friend starts kicking you in the head? How are you going to get up? Can you get someone off of you whilst they're punching you, or do you roll onto your front to stop being punched in the face?

I agree that it is a very dumb place to fight. It is most important to learn how to get back up, and this is one thing many of my brothers and I are working on.

You dont have to be a blue belt in BJJ to handle yourself on the ground - but you need to train with people who know that arena and can show you the techniques and positions that get you out of it. I train with my teachers because in their arenas they can completely dominate me, it's not even a competition. If you believe you have that in your stand-up, why not seek it in your groundwork??

I agree it is very useful to train our techniques with exponents of the ground. There are a series of video clips showing Shaolin Groundwork on Sigung Wong's website. Perhaps you might enjoy looking at these to see that groundwork is present in Shaolin Kung Fu. The difference is that we would normally aim to get up, and not stay in this range.

To clarrify: I am not claiming that I personally could counter a skilled shoot wrestler or ground fighter, not even quite a good one yet. The same goes for many of my brothers. It is that we have techniques that work if you have the skill level, but like anything else it takes along time to master these.

There are some fighters within Shaolin Wahnam that could counter very skillful shoot wrestlers, but please don't get the feeling that we all think we could easily counter these fighters. They are very skilled, and I for one have much respect for them.

All the best

[Kaitain]

Hi George - thanks for the reply.

By "not set" I mean you are dealing with incoming attacks, not just waiting for a shoot to come in. Consequently there is some sacrifice of power for mobility - if you spar (I believe some of you do?) then you'll know that setting yourself up to hit your hardest generally makes it easier to hit you.

You fight from a bow/arrow stance? Interesting... I would say that you're asking for your front knee to be kicked or hooked. The bow/arrow is not a fighting stance in my experience - how do you move? The stance is generally showing the completion of a technique at it's most stretched. A forward weighted stance like that is going to get you hurt (ime)

I think you're off the mark regarding this Tiger Claw business - have you or your teachers trained it against someone who can actually grapple? Someone doing what they think is a double-leg takedown isnt the same as someone who can actually do it.... Do the drill I outlined and see what you think? Im not asking you to take my words on face value. I train at an MMA gym to test my taiji - people shoot from punching range. Sprawling works well.

To put it another way - I train 'Kai' in my Yang Family taijiquan. It involves ripping and tearing of muscles and tendons. It can be used on the ground from a position of dominance - but when someone is elbowing you in the head and your head is on concrete and you are mounted, you lack a few key things:
1) leverage - when mounted there is no leverage, this is why it's such a crappy position. Punching from there is weak, especially if the opponent is high on your chest. You cant apply any locks because you cant execute them properly without leverage.
2) targets - they can sit up and get their face and neck out of reach, they have leverage to pull their arms out, their legs are pushing into your armpits that limit where you can go for anyway
3) time - once mounted and being struck, you have very little time. The mind shuts down and usually people go into survival mode - covering up and turning over.

So my suggestion is to go and find someone who can actually grapple - I did. I joined the class and got shown a few things, now I know the basics of position and escape I can look at the 'non-sport' tools and use them.

Put it another way - what if your opponent is wearing a leather jacket? Do you think you can inflict enough pain through it to stop them hitting you? How about if they pin your wrists? They have a position of leverage so this is feasible - what if they start headbutting you or biting your nose? Your hands are pinned, how do you escape?

I don't mean to offend or be perceived as rude - please take my posts in the light of someone who trains and love CMA, Im not ragging on the arts at all.

Cheers

Paul

[Kaitain]

Hi J-Say - thanks for your thoughtful response. Please dont call me Sifu - I teach but I am not of a level that merits the title Kaitain or Paul is fine.

Internal Power - http://www.eternal-internal.com/vide...o_part_one.wmv is a 12mb video of me showing some basically application of Yin and Yang interchanging.

Grappling -
Your friend told you about the key point when dealing with the shoot - footwork and flow. If you look at a fighter like Chuck Lidell and watch his takedown defence you can see how effective the sprawl is. Think of the sprawl in CMA terms - an incoming force is being welcomed in, the hips and legs are cleared away from the hands coming in, you then use your own structure to apply downward force onto the shooter. Obviously there are then counters to the sprawl, and counters to the counter, but my experience is that this first movement is the best response to an attempted shoot. The position you're in is a good one - controlling the head/shoulders, both legs available for knees/kicks.

I dont train my guys in grappling beyond this point - mostly because im an amateur at it. Also because if they come up against someone who knows what to do after their shoot has been countered, then they are going to be toast anyway. I recommend that they train at the no-gi place I train at if they want to know more, Im not qualified to teach them.

I hope I covered the other points in my previous post - especially regarding 'set'

Cheers

Paul

[Simon]

Hi Paul,

maybe you remeber me from the tai Chi day? I was the bald one who left your chi kung session after just a couple of minute . Sorry, my friends wanted to move on, you'll have to show me again someday.

I haven't read all five pages of this thread so I want say too much in case I cover old ground. I will says that I fully agree with you that no words can compare with actually getting down and grappling. Even if we aim to avoid the situation we must be prepared just in case. For this reason I spent a few months going to the Brighton Judo Club. Any defences against throws/shoots need to be trained with people who actually train those techniques. I would however add that my girlfriend can poke me in the eye or grab my balls; she doesn't need tiger claw.

Regarding Bow arrow, if used as a poise pattern, ie for starting combat, it does leave the front leg exposed. the majority of Wahnam sets/forms/drills start from false leg (cat like stance). However once things kick off the bow arrow is a work horse. Surely in tai chi you have a similar stance?

If you're into cross training maybe we could meet up sometime? All in good spirit of course. I'll show you how to move in bow arrow . You can send me a private message.

Regards

Simon