A Discussion on Yielding

[Marcus]

Same Set different benefits

Hello all,

Back in post 91 of this thread we learned that some schools advocate modifying sets in order to make them easier for beginners to perform. The approach taken by Shaolin Wahnam is different.

To us, the same set can be performed by beginners and masters alike, and each benefits according to his level of attainment as well as other factors like needs and purposes.

Similarly in Wahnam Tai Chi Chuan, a new student may perform the basic set "Cloud Hands" to learn correct forms and movement, whereas an intermediate student can use it to develop internal force and practice combat application. A master can use the same set to attain mind expansion or return to God.

If you watch the video at this link you will note that the young person in yellow is performing Lohan asks the Way set and has a powerful chi flow at the end of the set.
The next video shows my elder Kung Fu brother Anthony performing the same set. Clearly: each benefits according to his level of attainment.

Later today I will make another post showing a simple example of a big movement being used in combat. Until then....

Kind regards

Marcus

Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Buddha

[joko]

In post #142, the first picture has Simon with his right leg in front. Are you under the impression that the 4th picture has Simon with his left leg in front (and the photographer has moved)?

Well, had Simon moved his left foot in front, it would have been he (Simon) himself who would have been felled to the ground instead of his opponent.

Because the main defence for 'Carry Tiger Back to Mountain' is to move the back foot backward, then sink the hips. The pattern is called 'Black Bear Sink Hips'.
Had Simon moved his back foot forward (in the picture the back foot happens to be his left foot), he would have helped the opponent execute his defence.

Had Simon done that (move the left foot forward) all his opponent have to do is just sinking his hips in order to fell Simon to the ground. (of course still maintaining the hold by his hands)

[steve]

I have to agree with Sifu Stier, the 4th picture and the end of Anthony's 2nd video are NOT the same. From picture 3 to picture 4 the stance moves, not just a pivot or a change of weight distribution. Perhaps it moves after the person is already on the ground to close the gap?

[Antonius]

I find it fascinating that people with many years of martial arts experience (Steve and Sifu Stier) can incorrectly analyze the photos of Simon. The technique shown in the video is exactly the same as that shown in the photos. The problem is that you gentlemen do not seem to be familiar with the technique shown in the photos, hence your incorrect analysis.

Simon's back (left) leg does not move towards the park bench. What you gentlement seem to be reacting to is the fact that the right leg of the person being thrown (Mark) gets uprooted. This is understandable since the name of the pattern is "Uprooting Tree." Mark's leg moves, not Simon's.

If you assume that Marks' right foot is still where it started, then I can see your confusion. But why would you make this assumption? Mark has just been uprooted. His leg, and his whole body, have moved. He has just been thrown to the ground! Furthermore, if Simon had stepped his left leg towards the park bench (or west, if Mark is to the north), then he would not have been able to throw Mark. As Joko mentioned, that step would be self-defeating for Simon because it is essentially a counter to his own technique.

As someone mentioned earlier, I think you gentlemen are trying very hard to add extra steps to the photos. The photos, and the technique, are quite simple. Why not just keep them that way?

This post contains links to the photos, and the videos, if anyone doesn't feel like searching: http://www.wongkiewkit.com/forum/sho...&postcount=265

[Sifu Stier]

I find it fascinating that you think someone with many years of martial arts experience...and expertise...would be so easily deceived by bogus explanations which are clearly refuted by the photographic evidence! I'm not blind, and I'm not stupid, as you apparently assume in typically condescending fashion.

The explanation of executing the takedown shown in Photo #4 by rotating the body trunk and shifting the weight leftward in the stance of Photo#3, without taking an additional step forward, is a plausible possibility for performing the technique selected, but the photographic evidence does not support this explanation. If that is how the takedown was executed, Simon's body would end facing almost 180 degrees away from the park bench in the background, mostly facing the opposite direction from the previous frames. The photo clearly shows that it does not, but instead still faces this bench! True...he does finish facing his left foot, but in the same compass direction approximately as before, towards the bench, not away from it. This is only possible if the left foot stepped forward at the end. Viewers don't have to be an Einstein to figure this out!

Additionally the relative position of the left foot to his own right foot in the first three frames would remain essentially the same if the left foot had not moved with a step. Again, the photgraphic evidence refutes the allegation that his left foot only rotated in place, but did not step. Also, if this is how the technique was performed, and is supposed to be performed, why do your videos show you still facing your forward right foot instead of your rear left foot? And even with this latest round of bogus explanations, there are four (4) weight transfers...forward to assume the defense ready stance, backward to yield and neutralize, reposition of leading right foot from inside attacker's leg to outside attacker's leg, and backward to left leg to execute the takedown. So...no matter how you explain it, there is at least one missing step in your videos, which is why they do not accurately demonstrate what you claimed they would to prove your boast.

Sifu Stier

[steve]

Hi Anthony

I'm fimiliar with that seqence. It seems that we're comparing pictures and videos rather than the kung fu.

I didn't say which leg moved. Taking the bench as 12 o clock. If you look at pic 3, Simon's left leg is at about 20 to, in pic 4 it's at quarter to or more. It doesn't matter which leg moved (pic comparison), Simon's angle has changed relative to the bench. (splitting hairs of course)

In your video I see that you move your right foot from the inside of your imaginary apponents leg to land on the outside, and throw. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that... very practical and effective combat sequence.

If Simon did move his right leg to up root Mark after moving it to the outside, your video doesn't show that. Your finishing angle is not the same as picture 4.

In application things change, Mark may have grabbed Simon's shirt on the way down, forcing Simon to step in? Who knows? Unless it's the camera angle or a change in lighting, it sure looks like there's some foot work between pic 3 and 4, which isn't on your video.

[Markus Kahila]

Hello, all!


This lively discussion inspired myself and Tapio Raevaara to go and have some fun with the much debated technique performed originally by Mark and Simon. We also filmed some clips for your viewing pleasure .

By Markus

By Tapio


In our opinion, there's no reason this technique couldn't be performed in the time frame of one second. Counting from the time the push is performed, to the moment when the attacker touches the ground, my performance here is around about 1.2 seconds, and Tapio did it in 1.3 (not bad for someone with just 4 months of practice in Shaolin Kungfu!). Please note that the we purposefully softened the fall by taking our time. Tapio hadn't learned safe breakerfall until this session, so there was good reason to take it easy.

Another point I'd like to mention is that we filmed this clip before either of us saw Siheng Anthony's second clip. This is our interpretation of the technique in question, based on the original images. After the second clip was posted, there's been a lot of discussion concerning the placement of the feet and the number of movements, but I think before thinking about what steps are taken one should first consider what the technique is meant for. In this particular yielding-felling technique, any extra steps would be just that - extra steps with no particular purpose.


I sincerely wish that this clip will help to advance understanding of Siheng Anthony's clips in relation to the original images, and perhaps even inspire some to have some fun with your kungfu training!

Let me know what you think.


Kind regards,

Markus


P.S. These files are in .avi -format - playing them with windows media player may result in an ultra-fast viewing experience. Although this looks cool, we're not that fast (yet) .

[George]

Sifu Stier and Steve,

I see what you mean about picture #4, however I think that Anthony's performance of the technique is simply better that Simon's (sorry Sehing - you are still many years better than me.)

If you can throw your opponent without taking an extra step, and you can - I have direct experience of this (being thrown with this technique that is ) and I have seen it performed live - then why take the extra step? If your throw is good enough you can control where your opponent lands, without needing to adjust. But then I'm sure you already know this.

Unfortunately it will be a long time before my throws are that good.


Marcus Sehing,

That is so cool!

[Marcus]

Hey Markus great video's! I personally like the windows super fast version And congratulations to Tapio, very good for only 4 months experience.

I'd just like to finish posting for today by offering 2 more picture sequences based on this from post#91 (on this thread):

Take the typical Tai Chi Chuan movement "peng", called "Immortal Waves Sleeves" in Wahnam Tai Chi Chuan, for example. According to Sifu Stier's concept, this big movement must be reduced in size before it can be used in combat. I disagree with this concept because in both Shaolin Kung Fu and Wahnam Tai Chi Chuan, this big movement is often used in combat, and it is fast and powerful at the same time.

If someone uses both his hands to grip your arm at your elbow and wrist, for example, an effective counter is the big movement of "Immortal Waves Sleeves" or "peng". In Shaolin Kungfu, the pattern is "Beauty Looks at Mirror", and in this case must be performed in a big movement. In fact, it is the big movement that implements the continuous process of yielding, deflecting and countering. If the movement is reduced in size, it will not be effective. Any Shaolin Wahnam students, including new ones, who have direct experience of using the above techniques in their sparring will know that big movements can be effectively used for combat.

Picture A: Tai Chee Yong grips Sifu right wrist with a tiger-claw. Sifu relax's his arm and using his shoulder as pivot, turn's his arm in a clockwise direction, simultaneously rotating his waist
Picture B. This turning will cause Tai to release his grip; otherwise it will dislocate his wrist. Note this is a BIG movement.

Picture 1: Simon grips my arm with both of his hands, at my elbow and wrist
Picture 2: I respond using the Shaolin pattern Beauty Looks In Mirror (notice again this is a BIG movement, travelling in an arc from Simons mid thigh, to his face.

I'm work all day tomorrow, so either in the evening, or on Tuesday morning, though Ollie has a hospital appointment, so it might have to be Tuesday evening I will start the topic of Yielding and Kicks! I am very excited as I wonder where this NEW material will take us

Stay tuned....

Kind regards

Marcus
Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Buddha

[Tapio Raevaara]

I'm surprised that analyzing those pictures and possible steps have become such a popular hobby here.

Why not concentrate on the actual techniques?

Anthony boldly asserted that he could perform this application exactly as shown in the photo sequence against a live opponent in one (1) second or less. This he has not done thus far.

Dear Sifu Stier,

Anthony Sihing never made such an assertion. He only claimed he could perform the same technique.

In fact I'm a little disappointed with your statment. As a Grandmaster of Shen Men Tao, I'm sure you're aware of the fact, that every single person performs a technique in an individual way. Depending on the situation, there will always be small adjustments to make the technique work in the particular situation.

This can be clearly seen in the video clips Markus Sihing posted. There are differences in our performances, mainly due to the difference in skill and experience, but partly due to the difference in physique.

Both of his volunteered videos to date show him ending his technique with the right foot forward

The defender ends his technique in the horseriding stance, both in videos and in pictures. I think "forward" is quite a ambiguous concept here, it depends on where the opponent falls.

I honestly think you are over-analyzing the pictures. Personally, I wouldn't care even if the location and performers were different in each picture. The technique itself is pictured well. It may be difficult to understand intellectually from the pictures, but it is extremely easy to understand experientially by actually trying it out. In this way, questions about possible extra steps become quite trivial.

[Tapio Raevaara]

And congratulations to Tapio, very good for only 4 months experience.

Thank you, Sihing! It surely was a quick step from combat sequence 4 to combat sequence 13, and an extremely enjoyable lesson.

Again, if a beginner like me can learn the application this fast, it just shows how excellent technique it really is. In fact, this was the first time in my kungfu career that I utterly realized by first-hand experience, how an opponent could be beaten using no physical strength at all. (I did use just a bit, not enough practise yet, obviously.)

I cannot even imagine how effective this technique will be after 30 years of practise.

P.S.

Now that both you and Markus Sihing have had trouble with the videos, I think I'll have to do something about that. Of course, they worked fine in my Windows Media Player...

[Michael Durkin]

The defender ends his technique in the horseriding stance, both in videos and in pictures. I think "forward" is quite a ambiguous concept here, it depends on where the opponent falls.

Nice point !

This shows the difference between "higher" and "lower" level understanding.

The whole left leg/park bench thing is clutching at straws I feel. Theres going to be more people doing this technique well under 3 seconds I'm confident. I look forward untill I can grab a friend and a camera to record my experiences

[LeeWeiJoo]

Dear Siheng Markus and Sidai Tapio,

Those were great videos! Thanks for sharing your experiences with us This is a simple, direct and effective throw.

With Shaolin Salute,
Lee Wei Joo

[Mark Blohm]

Very nice!

[Mark Blohm]

Siheng Marcus,

I believe there is a good example of Sifu using a big movement in the Shaolin Double Tiger Claws video on Sifu Anthony's website. Sifu uses it to release his arm from a two-handed grip. The technique is about 45 seconds into the clip.

http://www.zenergyarts.com/videos/ZATigerClaw.wmv

Mark