Unexpected Lessons

[Antonius]

I'd like to start with a quote from Kevin's post in the "strategy and tactics for combat" thread.

Sifu Stier's posts on this Forum continue to teach me lessons..lessons he's probably not even aware he's giving.

There is a famous Sufi story that I would like to relate. I got this story from my kungfu sister, Emiko, who is far more knowledgable on such things. But I really like the story, and I think it is relevant here.

A Sufi teacher has several students in a village. One day, the students approach their teacher and beg him to expel one particular student. This member is a troublemaker and creates grief between himself and every single member in the village. The teacher listens to everyone's complaints, then immediately goes up to the troublemaker and gives him an enormous amount of money so that he will stay in the village. When the other students are outraged, he says to them, "Be grateful. This man is your teacher.

Some of you (particularly Michael Udel ) are probably wondering why I spend so much time and effort responding to Sifu Stier. After all, the discussions rarely go anywhere because of his style of debating. Or do they?

How many of you can honestly say that you have not benefitted from the lively debates that Sifu Stier has sparked? Remember the That was Zen, This is Tao thread? Or how about the Breathing Methonds and Control in Taijiquan thread? And of course, there's the recent A Discussion on Yielding thread.

These threads have benefitted many people. (I know because of the large amount of feedback that I receive in person, via email, from other instructors, and from Sifu.) So for those who are wondering why I (and my classmates) do it, the answer is simple: because of the benefits.

Here are some of the benefits of these discussions. I would like others to add their own.

• They bring our kungfu philosophy to a higher level.
• They enable us to discern real from false in writing.
• They enable us to practice our strategies and tactics in verbal sparring.
• They give us a deeper understanding of the Ten Shaolin laws.

[Maxime]

There is a wonderful saying in French, which has been remained to me by Yeniseri a few days ago:

'Une mer calme ne fait jamais un bon marin'

which I can (very) roughly translate as

'a glassy sea never made a good sailor'

There is a difference, in my opinion, between avoiding conflict (when we can) and standing firmly on our stance (when necessary...and useful).

Adversity is a teacher. Unfortunately, for some, and fortunately for others. Some believe that adversity can hurt. If we stay at this stage, and don't go to the next one, we fix on pain (emotional), create blockage (mental) and miss the benefits of progression. But if we find the courage to go beyond that level, we will find that we have transcended suffering, developped skills, enhanced our spirit, enhanced our relationships because of our better understanding of our surroundings as well as developped our inner strength.

It is that small 'impulse' (deciding to react when confronted to adversity) that will give the future benefits of adversity. But one must not feel fear (because there is nothing to fear of) and have an understanding of the benefits from adversity. Standing firmly in front of adversity is a wonderful way to nurture Shen and lay strong foundations for a healthy life, emotionally, mentally, spiritually.
Is it true that adversity can hurt? It is the way one chooses to handle adversity that can hurt (passivity) or help (reaping the benefits of 'interraction').

Dear brothers and sisters, if there is something one should fear, it is fear itself. I will never wish my worst enemy to live in fear.

I don't know if an intellectual post like mine can help a little. Nevertheless Life is the greatest of all teachers. Those who went through adversity know what I am talking about. The last decade I went through many conflicts and I can assure my brothers and sisters that:

the worst thing in life, when you are confronted to adversity, is to lose faith, lack courage, and stand in a passive state where the slightest attack will be like a A-Bomb on your face. The worst thing is to become a victim of adversity. In front of adversity, one should not become a victim, but a student.
When a punch arises to your chest, you yield then counterstrike. If not, your opponent might use 'Continuous Canon' against you.

Receiving passivily 'Continuous Canon' from your opponent in real life, whatever be the aspects of adversity (the types of Canon, rethoric or not), is certainly not a way to enjoy life, to let the spirit free, to set examples for the weak and the young, to work for the benefit of yourself, your family, and humankind.

So if I was to answer Anthony Sihing 's excellent question:

All those discussions are helping us:

- To become a student, not a victim
- To go to the next stage
- To improve courage, mental clarity, power of the mind
- To settle an example to follow for the young and the next generation
- To give strength to the weak by our example
- To protect and preserve what we believe is right
- To protect and preserve the Shaolin Arts (which we believe...are right )

Thanks for reading,

Shaolin Love,

Maxime

ps: my opinion is not especially aimed at Sifu Stier's posts, but also generally to every situations and everybody who may stand in front of you, including some discussions in a forum, obviously.

[Kevin]

Excellent story Sifu Korahais..and very, very fitting.

I have to admit that in the not-too-distant past, I was one of the "students" in the Sufi story, wondering and questioning myself as to why the Wahnam Sifus spent the time and effort they did in responding to and debating with Sifu Stier. The level of tolerance they showed amazed me. I just couldn't understand it. But I do now.

How have I benefited from reading and participating (in a small way) in these discussions/debates with Sifu Stier..?

1. They've shown me the value of tolerance.
2. They've taught me to have more patience, tolerance, and understanding.
3. They've shown me that if you stay in control of yourself, take a step back,
and just let things "flow", then just about every moment in life can be an
opportunity to learn and grow.
4. And I think most importantly, they've clearly shown me how you can
take a negative and turn it into a positive.

So my thanks to the Wahnam Sifus for their continued involvement and discussions/debates with Sifu Stier. And my thanks to Sifu Stier for the lessons he consistently provides.

Best wishes to all

Kevin

[Piers]

I’m interested by this business of the arguments with Sifu Stier. I have been on the verge of posting several times recently, particularly in the ‘wisdom and courage’ thread. It seemed to me that Shaolin Wahnam instructors were going beyond standing up vigorously for their beliefs, and getting to the point where they were being provocative and picking arguments – even being rude to him.

One example I was going to quote (and now find myself doing so) was Sifu Andrew’s response to Sifu Stier’s post in the ‘Strategy and tactics for combat’ thread. Sifu Andrew says: ‘You needed 6 paragraphs and a couple of posts in between [to say that] -- I needed a sentence.’ And he then continues to say ‘I'm sure it would be much easier for all of us if you would write what you meant in the first place rather than constantly contradict yourself. Clarity (or lack thereof) is the word that comes to mind.’

Isn’t that first sentence really saying ‘I’m better than you’? There was no obvious antagonism in what Sifu Stier had written before (in this case!). Sifu Andrew was not responding to a series of insults. Yet it sounds as though he is assuming there’s an argument going on and talking as if he’s in the middle of one – ‘constantly contradict’ is an exaggeration, the sort of exaggeration one makes when one is attacking someone because you’re in the middle of arguing with them. Picking up on how long someone takes to express something is not relevant to the topic at hand. Instead, it sounds like an ongoing campaign to find fault with Sifu Stier wherever possible.

And I wasn’t comfortable with that.

(I should hasten to say right now that I think the instructors do a great job here on this forum, and I am very grateful for that and for all the help they give so many people. There’s no doubt about that, nor about their great tolerance too.)

But then it occurred to me that I was missing something that was going on here, so I didn’t post. What you said just now, Sifu Anthony, about sticking to your approach to handling Sifu Stier, makes me wonder if there’s a conscious tactic going on.

You asked the question in the ‘Wisdom and Courage’ thread about why some of us have felt uncomfortable with the confrontations with Sifu Stier. I have wondered if I simply don’t like confrontation. I don’t think it’s just that, although it’s partly that (and I’m learning something there). Then it occurred to me that I was responding to a certain baiting or belittling going on – as in the example above, or in some of Sifu Marcus’s comments about low level techniques, and so on.

Now I’m thinking, well maybe when you deal with someone who often uses the ‘dagger hidden in a smile’ approach, who often makes half-concealed or implied assertions of superiority (eg ‘my humble but true opinion’ – what an extraordinary statement that one is; I always suspected that to describe oneself as humble instantly cancelled the truth of the assertion, but saying 'humble but true' goes one step further and not only cancels the humble bit but casts doubt on the true bit!), and so on, then maybe you directly confront them. At every possible opportunity. (Maybe as a response to ‘discerning the false in writing’.)

Maybe it’s a way of not letting anything go unchallenged, because so many people here spent so long doing that. Maybe it is – but certainly we are being pretty relentless with Sifu Stier at the moment.

Just some thinking aloud – hope that it has a place in this thread, rather than the ‘Wisdom and courage’ thread. But in answer to your question, yes I have certainly learnt things through these debates.

[Michael Udel]

Why?

After all, the discussions rarely go anywhere because of his style of debating.

Sifu Anthony, why do you feel justified to continually hold someone up for criticism? This discussion forum has certain limitations and will not benefit by demonstrations of, or escalations of, ad hominen (personal) attacks.

Best wishes,
Michael

[Andrew]

Piers,

Thank you for your well thought out post. Please be reassured that I do not dislike Sifu Stier as I have stated before. What I do begin to dislike, though, is his attitude towards this forum on occasions. On the one hand he expects Shaolin Wahnam to substantiate all our claims with videos, pictures and lots more whilst he, in the meantime, just puts out any claims he likes and these must be swallowed by all with no proof or supporting evidence of any kind.

If we push a bit, Sifu Stier turns aggressive and gets really het up -- even resorts to name calling. This results typically (and again in this case) in, that other forum members jump to his help. This is fine. On the other hand, when we become a bit firm, we get accused of being over-critical etc.

Many have spoken here before about double-standards. Isn't this the most clear cut case?

By the way - my comment you noted above was actually related to some posts from last year in which Sifu Stier asked me to teach him something. In that post, I offered to teach him to improve on a particular issue -- clarity. For someone accomplished, his original comment could make sense. On the other hand, someone with less experience may well misconstrue the statement.

Andrew

[shaolin_mike]

To Kevin:
Was happy to read your last post in this thread, sorry if harsh words I said to you in the yielding thread offended I was a bit ticked off by the post you had made there. Glad we are both moving on and up which is why we joined Wahnam in the first place.

Peace
Mike

[Andrew]

Sifu Anthony, why do you feel justified to continually hold someone up for criticism? This discussion forum has certain limitations and will not benefit by demonstrations of, or escalations of, ad hominen (personal) attacks.

Michael, with all due respect -- why does does Sifu Stier feel justified to continually hold Shaolin Wahnam instructors up for criticism (on the Shaolin Wahnam Forum) whilst noone accepts any criticism of Sifu Stier? Why are Sifu Stier's comments accepted without substantiation whilst Shaolin Wahnam instructors' comments need constant substantiation and detailed proof? Interesting dilemma --- and again my question on double-standards.

I wonder what will happen on Sifu Stier's forum, though, if (or more likely when) he is criticised there? Will all jump to the defence of those criticising there too? Or will Sifu Stier's standard reactions as shown here be simply accepted?

Andrew

[Maxime]

Dear All,

I was about to post here, but I thought it would be more appropriate in the 'Yielding' thread.

But I think my post there sums up what I could learn from 'unexpected lessons'.

Shaolin Salute

Maxime

[joko]

I wonder what will happen on Sifu Stier's forum, though, if (or more likely when) he is criticised there? Will all jump to the defence of those criticising there too? Or will Sifu Stier's standard reactions as shown here be simply accepted?

One good way to find out is just doing it (put the criticising post in his forum).

[Antonius]

Dear Michael,

This discussion forum has certain limitations and will not benefit by demonstrations of, or escalations of, ad hominen (personal) attacks.

It's funny. I completely disagree. This forum has greatly benefitted from ad hominem attacks.

As I mentioned in another thread, Sifu Stier has had more requests at moderation than all the other members in the history of the forum combined. That is a signficant statistic. This means that forum members -- not instructors -- have clicked the "report bad post" button or sent emails complaining about Sifu Stier more often than all the other complaints combined. Many of these complaints refer specifically to Sifu Stier's ad hominem attacks.

In essence, Sifu Stier has been regularly breaking the rules for 1.5 years. And yet we've let him get away with it. Why? Because in a roundabout way, these attacks have been a great benefit to the forum.

Michael, we seem to differ on our definition (and our spelling ) of an ad hominem attack. I am attacking Sifu Stier's credentials, not his character. The "style" with which he posts is not a question of character. It is a question of clarity and experience -- both of which are extremely relevant to his status as a Grandmaster.

If you would like to see some examples of what I consider to be ad hominem attacks, then take a look here. And those are tame compared to some of the others that have been swept under the carpet over the past 1.5 years.

Best,

[Andrew]

One good way to find out is just doing it (put the criticising post in his forum).

Thanks for the suggestion Joko -- but I don't think that my sinking to Sifu Stier's level will benefit anyone. And I'm sure there are enough others out there in the cyber world who will be critical enough of his claims "based on faith alone".

Andrew

[Piers]

Sifu Andrew, I frequently don’t like Sifu Stier's attitude either – and I really don’t have a problem with people being firm with him. Not at all. In fact, I admire the firm way various instructors including you have dealt with him. But I was just beginning to get a feeling that at times we were almost automatically finding fault with him.

On the double standard point, I did respond to that original post of his (the one about yielding) because I was so taken aback by what he said – I basically criticised him (I still wonder how many spiritual disciplines you need to follow for how many decades before you get a measure of genuine humility). I was often surprised by how thin-skinned he seemed to criticism, and I have to say that Kevin really nailed something in some of his more virulent posts. In other words, I have participated in criticising him.

On the other hand, I just don’t like seeing Wahnam people attacking and confronting quite so relentlessly, even when Sifu Stier began the confrontation. He continues it, too, I must say. But I just think the fairer we are, the more he will dig his own grave. And I do understand Sifu Anthony's point about not letting him get away with stuff any more.

piers

[Michael Udel]

Again, fairness

Michael, with all due respect -- why does does Sifu Stier feel justified to continually hold Shaolin Wahnam instructors up for criticism (on the Shaolin Wahnam Forum) whilst noone accepts any criticism of Sifu Stier? Why are Sifu Stier's comments accepted without substantiation whilst Shaolin Wahnam instructors' comments need constant substantiation and detailed proof? Interesting dilemma --- and again my question on double-standards.

Andrew

Dear Sifu Andrew,

When Sifu Stier criticizes someone he does it immediately, by himself, and usually in a context relevant to the current post and situation. He does not hold grudges, conceal his true opinions at a certain time only to let them multiply and become large enough to hit someone over the head with them at a later date, or instigate others to jump onto his bandwagon and join his criticism so as to gang upon an individual.

I have responded to the issue of substantiation and validation in one of the other many threads currently spawned or propagated by Shaolin Wahnam Instructors in a coordinated personal attack against Sifu Stier.

I also responded to the issue of double standards in another recent post. I do not believe in double standards, but standards are not rigid. Like all things, standards are part material and part spiritual. Insults, such as the one Sifu Stier gave to Sifu Santer and Joko are unacceptable on this forum. These are an example of a material standard, and are fairly rigid. For example, a standard against profanity can be bent when a forum member is upset and otherwise quite well-behaved. We must also consider the fact that Sifu Stier contributes substantially more to this forum than the vast majority of its members. I have felt his spiritual contribution to this forum, and others have posted in his defense who might agree with this statement about spiritual contribution. The lovely pictures he posts are an example of an equal material and spiritual contribution, but most of the Shaolin Wahnam Instructors currently aligned against him were so willing to interpret his intentions as negative that they criticized his posting of the beautiful pictures he provided, and read into it the most ridiculous notions. His contribution, both materially and spiritually, does not grant him exemption or the pleasure of a double standard, but it puts some things into a proper context.

Best wishes,
Michael

[Damian Kissey]

Fairness and Lessons

Sifu Michael Udel ,

Greetings.

Sifu and Instructors have been more then fair to Sifu Stier or your goodself .

The contributions and unexpected lessons from Sifu Stier are accepted but not indispensable.

Sifu's and Instructors' material and spiritual guidance is more then adequate .Personally , i did not feel any positive spiritual contribution from Sifu Stier in our forum .

Wisning you success and best wishes in Your vocation ,

Damian Kissey .