A Discussion on Yielding

[Antonius]

Dear Sifu Stier,

I do not call myself a master, nor am I aware of having supersonic speed, but I can perform the technique shown in less than a second. Furthermore, I've used a slower version of technique, but it was still effective in full speed, full contact Karate sparring.

Since words are so limited, I'll try to post a video of the technique soon, hopefully by the weekend.

Sifu Stier, what will you say once I post the video? I'm curious, but I already have my suspicions. Should be interesting.

I read on your Shen Men Tao forum that you plan to release videos. Will any of them be freely available? I hope so, because I think a video might help all of us to get past the limitations of words. Please let us know if/when those videos are available.

Best regards,

[alexstedman]

He (Sifu) asks them to “Really throw me.” and when the student expected to find Sifu on the ground, he found himself on the ground instead! It is an inspiring experience. It awes us to the beauty of Wahnam Tai Chi Chuan and Shaolin Kungfu. I invite anyone who has had such an experience to share it here with us.

In the most recent Kung Fu course held in Toronto, Sifu had kindly picked me to demonstrate flowing/intercepting, tiger claw, using the opponenets force against himself, and tactical speed. That was an experience and a half that I will never forget.

On the 'flowing with the opponents force' aspect, Sifu put me in a simple chin-na grip, holding my wrist and pressing my elbow. I countered this with 'Hide flowers in Sleeves' followed by a 'Precious Duck'. (For Sifu Stier, The 'Hide Flowers' follows the momentum, and a turn of the arm releases the grip. The harder the 'attacker' tries to execute the elbow-lock, the easier it is get out of!). Sifu counterd my Precious Duck with a False-Leg Hand Sweep aimed at the outside of my elbow. I followed this momentum, and brought my arm round to attack Sifu's temple with a hanging fist (Reverse Hanging of the Golden Lotus).

Now this was the part that amazed me. Sifu threw me to the ground.
I could see it coming, I knew the counter. Yet Sifu still managed to get me in a complete tangle, with both my arms wrapped around one another, and my legs falling over themselves. He had performed 'Fell Tree with Roots', added with a simple hand movement to get me to the ground. I just couldn't help but laugh at the situation I was in, and how simply he had got me under his complete control.

The discussion at the moment seems to be focussed on the 'Fell Tree with Roots' technique. I agree that, at first, it is a slow technique shifting weight and all. But over time, the shifting of weight becomes subtle, and 'just enough' to avoid the opponents attack. With this, the technique can be performed very quickly.

Yet what is really important is, you probably guessed it, the skill involved. I may be able to perform the technique in under a second (not there yet, but the sake of argument), but if I am not skillful enough to control the opponents arms and legs correctly, I may find myself walking into a palm-jab at my ribs or eyes, or even a snap-kick to the groin. A quick point to mention on the technique itself is that the arms are not the main throwing 'weapon'. In fact, the whole body is used to throw the opponent, by a sink in the stance, or in changing the stance. Again, if the skill isn't there, it's going to be as much use as a chocolate fireman, and what I think is going to give me victory, will actually give my opponent the clinch he needs to secure himself a win.

Just my two cents

Warm regards to all
Alex

[Simon]

I did the technique sooooo fast that no one saw me do it!

It seems to me that each situation has it's own requirements. Where I find myself very close to my opponent a throw is a good option. If I find further away then I'm not going to waste time moving in, I'll use a longer range technique. Spacing, not just timing.

Back to the yielding, we can also react to the opponents movements. If he is put off balance as I shift my weight forward after the sink I can easily keep the momentum going as I do the throw.
If the opponent however presses back against my move or plays me at my own game by yielding then I must react accordingly.

What is the perfect yield? There isn't one shoe for all feet.

Cheers

Simon

[Marcus]

Hello everyone,

I am absolutely delighted with the way this thread is progressing. So much so that I will wait until tomorrow to post the "PULL" picture series, to allow this current discussion a little more space to develop.

Kindest regards to all involved

Marcus

Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Buddha

[Marcus]

Counter to being PULLED

Hello again,

Earlier Sifu Stier wrote:

“If they choose to pull you...let them do so, and push them backward to stumble over some obstacle on the ground or into something solid”.

I found this technique to be disadvantageous and potentially dangerous, should the opponent pull Sifu Stier to fall onto the “obstacle” or “into something solid”.
My counter to this situation was as follows:

As the opponent pulls, follow his momentum and respond with 'Cross Hands Thrust Kick' to his chest (called 'White Horse Presents Hoof'' in Shaolin Kungfu.)

In picture 1, Simon (on the left) has grabbed Mark by the wrists and is pulling him forward.

Picture 2 and 3: Mark follows Simon’s momentum and responds with White Horse Presents Hoof (or Cross hands Thrust Kick). This pattern also breaks Simons grip on Mark's wrists and prevents Simon from pulling Mark any further (or if Simon should “stumble over some obstacle” he won’t take Mark with him).

Picture 4: Mark follows up with a Tiger Claw to the face.

Simple, direct and effective.

I plan to post a few more pictures to illustrate some of the counters and principals I have shared so far in this thread. Then I plan to take this topic into new dimensions. So as to fulfil my original purpose of this thread, that of bringing forum members understanding of this very important subject to a higher level.

I plan to start with “Yielding to counter Kicks”, stay tuned!

Kind regards

Marcus

Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Buddha

[Sifu Stier]

Marcus:

I would never pull or push anyone as depicted in your photo, so your example and comments thereof are totally irrelevant! These are just further exercises of intellectual conjecture regarding hypothetical situations. And...your examples continue to reflect 'linear' thinking, with direct contests of technique and strength, which is more typical of 'external' rather than 'internal' martial arts.

That's not my way of doing things, but to each their own!

Sifu Stier

[Antonius]

Dear Sifu Stier,

I would never pull or push anyone as depicted in your photo, so your example and comments thereof are totally irrelevant!

I don't follow your logic. You wouldn't push or pull someone that way. So therefore, you don't need to worry about being pulled or pushed that way? What if I push you that way? Will you counter by saying, "I wouldn't push you that way"?

Seems to me that it doesn't matter how you yourself would or would not push or pull someone, but rather how an attacker might push or pull you. Marcus' examples show pretty common ways of being pulled or pushed on the street. Therefore, his counters seem pretty relevant to me.

...your examples continue to reflect 'linear' thinking, with direct contests of technique and strength...

Contests of strength? Really? Both of the techniques Marcus showed could be done by a small-sized woman against a large man. How is that a contest of strength?

..which is more typical of 'external' rather than 'internal' martial arts...

What exactly in the examples is typical of external martial arts? Yielding to the initial attack? Following the opponent's momentum? Using his strength against him? Or maybe the famous Taijiquan principle of hou fa xian ji (starting later arriving earlier)? Are those concepts typical of external martial arts?

Sifu Stier, since you don't seem to like Marcus' photos, perhaps you would like to share some of your own.

Best regards,

[Sifu Stier]

Different Strokes for Different Folks!

As stated previously, your examples are not typical of the techniques taught by Sifu Yang Shao-Hou as responses to these actions from an opponent, and are therefore not what I was taught, and not the way I respond. However, I nonetheless honor your right to choose whatever strategies and techniques you prefer and deem most effective. By your leave, I shall continue to do the same. Different strokes for different folks! That's cool.

I'm not surprised to see that your interpretation of Tai-Chi Chuan principles is different than what is taught in the Shen Men Tao System, since the source of Tai-Chi Chuan material in each of our schools is quite different. And...since I can readily demonstrate many different applications of every Form in the Set, I acknowledge that there is more than one way of using every technique, and more than one technique that could be used to neutralize and counter any attack. It's all good by degree. No problem.

As also stated in a previous post, it is neither my responsibility nor my place to correct and refine your Tai-Chi Chuan. That is for your Master to address if and when he chooses as most appropriate to do so. All good things come to those who wait patiently!

Regards ~

Sifu Stier

[MoMoJuice]

Dear Sifu Stier,

It's good to see that you are still posting here

I'm not surprised to see that your interpretation of Tai-Chi Chuan principles is different than what is taught in the Shen Men Tao System,...

If I'm not mistaken, I think Siheng Marcus was showing Shaolin Kung Fu applications, so of course they would not necessarily be the same as what a Tai Chi Chuan exponent would use. I think the counter by the defender depends on many things. For example are you planning on seriously hurting the attacker? Do you just want to drop him on the ground to show him that you are more skilled?

If a person was holding both my arms and pulling me forward, I would move with his pulling momentum and push him to the ground. Or if he has lots of force in his grips, I would sink back a bit, and use a circular (Clouds Hands) movement to free both arms, then simultaneously push him to the ground. If the intention was to hurt or kill him, then after releasing the grip, "White Snake Shots Venom" to the thoat would work nicely.

I'm only a begginer and I'm learning a lot from the disscussions on this thread, I have a lot to learn. Thanks to everyone who have participated.

Respectfully,
MoMo.

[Andrew]

I'm not surprised to see that your interpretation of Tai-Chi Chuan principles is different than what is taught in the Shen Men Tao System, since the source of Tai-Chi Chuan material in each of our schools is quite different. And...since I can readily demonstrate many different applications of every Form in the Set, I acknowledge that there is more than one way of using every technique, and more than one technique that could be used to neutralize and counter any attack.

What are the differences in the understanding of Taijiquan principles to which you refer? I am not a Taijiquan practitioner but am very keen to learn more about the relevant principles --- particularly as they all (at least what I have read/seen/experienced until now) are also reflected in Shaolin Kung Fu.

If we are misunderstanding some basic principles I would be very keen to find out what the misunderstanding is and where it lies. And also would be keen to correct it. Please, Sifu Stier, rather than saying ---- hey guys you're wrong but that's ok ---- please give us some more details, some concrete examples and some illustrations. Sifu Marcus has, I'm sure, spent quite some time putting together the information he is presenting. And, by chosing simple sequences to photograph to demonstrate the principles, has made it much easier for everyone to see what is being discussed.

Your inputs are appreciated.

Thanks,
Andrew

[Andrew]

Sorry -- just need to add one more thing to my previous post. It refers to Sifu Stier's comment...

I'm not surprised to see that your interpretation of Tai-Chi Chuan principles is different than what is taught in the Shen Men Tao System, since the source of Tai-Chi Chuan material in each of our schools is quite different.

The source of the material (techniques, forms, sets, etc.) may well be different. But the underlying principles of Taijiquan should be universal for all styles of Taijiquan regardless of the school teaching them --- or have I misunderstood that too?

Andrew

[Adam Kryder]

yielding words

In order to better the relevancy of the forum, why not state your discussion on yielding in regards to an impersonal practicioner, rather than siting names and such.

It is my feeling that the discussion has lost its focus.

why not take a step back and reset?

Remember that community is to be used as power through brotherhood rather than alienation.

Best wishes

Adam Kryder

[Sifu Stier]

Hello Adam:

Thank you for your eloquent words of wisdom, and your excellent suggestion! Quite frankly, however, I'll be surprised if your advice is heeded.

MoMo:

Thanks for the clarification. I was of the understanding that the opinions, comments, and techniques being presented here were all in relation to different perspectives of Tai-Chi Chuan Principles and Techniques held by the respective parties in this discussion.

If as you stated, however, this most recent group of photos portray Shaolin defense and counter responses to being pushed or pulled, then it all makes perfect sense to me. The techniques shown are not typical Tai-Chi Chuan responses such as you mentioned, but are certainly excellent examples of a more linear Shaolin Chuan response.

Andrew:

I never said these examples are necessarily wrong. I said that they are not typical of techniques taught in the Old Yang Style of Tai-Chi Chuan, and thus do not reflect what what I practice or teach. I can only speak of that which I know from my own experience. I do not presume to speak for practitioners and teachers of other styles, as their methods may very well be different than what I was taught. And that's OK. A bit of variety is a good thing as it gives everyone fresh food for thought and new perspectives for future consideration.

I totally agree with you that the underlying principles of Tai-Chi Chuan should be universal to all styles and form sets regardless of the school or teacher. And that was probably true across the board prior to 1950 or so, but from what I've seen presented as Tai-Chi Chuan of all styles in the past several decades, I don't believe it to be the case any longer. Most of what is seen even at the Chinese Martial Arts Tournament Competitions no longer adheres to the traditional foundation principles...i.e. Relaxed and Flexible, Centered and Rooted, Circular and Curved, and Even Speed or Rhythm.

The routines demonstrated are primarily 'external' and superficial in nature...focusing solely on a external choreographed sequence of Form Postures performed in a manner that will probably never be an effective moving chi-kung or real 'internal training' (Nei-Kung)...and will never develop any martial capability. Looks so close to the real thing at a glance, but still misses the mark by Light Years! Sort of sad actually since great efforts were made by most to learn and perfect something that isn't what they think it is.

Regards ~

Sifu Stier

[MoMoJuice]

Dear Siheng Marcus,

I apologize I've missed reading some of the posts from the last few days, so I'm replying to this now.

It will be much appreciated if those who have used this technique in their training or in actual combat please give their honest comments. I understand Sifu teaches this technique in the intensive courses as well as the regional classes of both Wahnam Tai Chi Chuan and Shaolin Kungfu. So I hope those who have direct experience of this technique will contribute to this discussion.

We did learn the felling technique with Sifu during the recent Intensive Tai Chi Chuan course. I've found it to be very effective against students of my (low) level after coming back home. Actually it was just last monday that I used it to drop any student who I tried it with. A few weeks ago my teacher here asked me to try any movement against him during push hands, I tried it on him but I was the one on the floor....hehe, he is obviously much higher level than me.

I believe with daily practice, say for 6 months, this technique can be used to drop even a skilled fighter on the ground. I could be wrong about this but (all things being equal) I think WahNam Kung Fu students would perform this particular pattern better, faster, and with more stability than WahNam Tai Chi Chuan students. The reason is because Kung Fu students spend much more time practicing Horse Stance, and when sinking to use this felling technique, you are basically on a horse stance. This is only my view, and I could be wrong.

Sifu kindly demonstrated and taught the counter for this, and he easily dropped me and others to the ground. He was very gentle with us, and said "don't worry, soft landing!"

I don't want to know what would happen if Sifu used more force especially against someone who doesn't know how to fall correctly, the impact of hitting the floor might on it's own can cause an injury or a K.O!

I think I might start practicing Horse Ridding Stance from now on

Thank you,
MoMo.

[MoMoJuice]

Hello Sifu Stier,

Thank you for the response.

If as you stated, however, this most recent group of photos portray Shaolin defense and counter responses to being pushed or pulled, then it all makes perfect sense to me. The techniques shown are not typical Tai-Chi Chuan responses such as you mentioned, but are certainly excellent examples of a more linear Shaolin Chuan response.

I'm only a beginner here, and my brothers who are participating in the discussion are much higher level and more experienced than me. In my humble view the patterns (or similar ones) described in the recent photos could be used as Tai Chi Chuan responses, but the Tiger Claw would be changed to say a Palm Strike or something else. This response is not necessarily the best WahNam Tai Chi Chuan response.

Sifu taught us during the course to release the grip using the circular movement I described in my other post. I haven't tried to see if it might not work as well if someone was gripping and pulling you forward at the same time. In this case maybe the method described by Siheng Marcus would work better. I'm learning from this interesting discussion and hope I get corrected if I make some mistakes.

Take care.