Shen Men Tao

[HugoDarien]

Shen Men Tao

Good Day! Venerable SifuStier!

I wonder 2 things!

1. Do you know that there is some restaurant named Lee Wing Wah : see http://www.planet99.com/chicago/restaurants/13119.html

2. Do you use talismans like some taoism do, I have read to example from this text:

The Wayfarer of the Infinite asked someone to bring paper and brush. Sitting on the ground, he drew a talisman, then fit it into the palm of his hand, placed it over his chest, then closed his eyes and activated the talisman, reciting a secret formula. All the preparations completed, the whole village gathered in the hall. ......... The Wayfarer of the Infinite had Wang Liping first give each of those lying down a grain of a medicinal pill from his pouch.......The Wayfarer of the Infinite burned the talisman he'd made in the fire. Now the doors were shut, so the smoke filling the room choked the people, making them cough louder and louder. Then some people vomited, and chaos ensued........the Wayfarer of Pure Emptiness held a needle in in both hands and performed a field-effect mass acupuncture treatment in the air, mentally thrusting the needle intocertain special points, so that all the patients there simultaneously felt an effect.

The words of a spell will have no power and no effect when you invoke ... invoked by someone with a sufficient basis of inner work, then the spell is powerful and effective. This is like the principle of drawing talismans. Why do Taoists emphasize cultivation of essence and development of of inner power? Cultivation of essence is setting up the basis correctly; then all exercises and methods are rooted in the Great Way and work for the Great Way.
( this is take from varios part of the book and I have take away some words so it will not be a autentic kopi from the book: Opening the Dragon Gate: The Making of a Modern Taoist Wizard by Kaiguo Chen

Have a nice day!

[HugoDarien]

Shen Men Tao

Good Night! Great SifuStier!

1. Do the Shen Men Tao art use of shamanism or have some influence on it?
I wonder because In antiquity, curing and shamanism were united but some people also consider this progress to contain regression within it. Which of these points of view is correct? It would appear that there is no ready conclusion to this question, but one thing is for sure: if Chinese medical science is removed from its overall context in Chinese culture, if it is separated from the foundation of the yin-yang and five elements theories if it is abstracted from the pragmatic basis of inner work, then it has lost its living source Experience is indispensable in the development of Chinese medical science........ from the book: Opening the dragon Gate!

Good Night! Slepp well !!!

[yeniseri]

mamnoonah

Zhang Wuji,

Training posture is indeed different from training essence. Training essence involves self training to a larger extent and can even influence posture and its expression. Some of the aphorisms like 'decreasing excess by being quiet', nuture stomach by eating light, 'talking less to nuture energy; and similar epitaphs count for nothing today because people are not in tune with their natural environment.

Though the talisman and incantations are influences of shamanistic tradition, it is seen as being 'primitive' and therefore useless!

[Sifu Stier]

Hello Mr. Darien!

Shen Men Tao is a practical System of Taoist Self-Cultivation which employs various methods of Physical, Mental, and Spiritual development including Martial Art Exercises, Breath Exercises, Mental Visualization and Affirmation Techniques, Dietary Principles and Prescriptions, Oriental Medicine and Medical Chi-Kung Modalities, and Taoist Meditation Practices.

It is NOT a religion, however, and thus does not include Liturgical or Ceremonial Rituals (Yu-Chueh), Magical Invocations (Chung-Shu), Talismanic Charms (Shen-Fu), Burial and Renewal Rites (Wei-Yi), Prescriptions for Magical Cures and Blessings (Fang-Fa), Five Thunder Magic (Wu-Lei-Mo-Shu), and so forth. These are strictly the domain of Formal Religious Taoism. Such practices are common to virtually all of the various Sects of Religious Taoism such as the Cheng-Yi (Orthodox Heavenly Master Sect) or Meng-Wei (Auspicious Alliance Sect), and numerous others.

Since the Communist Revolution in China and the formation of The People's Republic of China thereafter in 1949, these Sects and their Traditional Rites and Practices have been discouraged and suppressed inside China. As a result, the last organized enclaves of the old Taoist Religion since then have been the communities of believers associated with the Taoist Temples and Monasteries of Hong Kong, Singapore, Macau, Taipei, Penang, and the remote mountain regions of South Korea and Taiwan, as well as those Temples located in the Chinatown communities of major cities throughout the world.

[Zhang Wuji]

SIMILARITIES OF THE INTERNAL ARTS
Hello all

I would like to begin a series of posts on the three most representative internal arts of Taijiquan, Bagua Zhang and Xingyi Quan. For purposes of my posts, I use the official Hanyu Pinyin romanisation system and apologise if it is unfamiliar.

I thought about beginning a new thread for this topic but finally decided on using this established and very popular thread “Shen Men Tao”. Also, as Shen Men Tao is one of the very few schools to teach all three arts separately and yet in a unified system, I think it would be acceptable to leverage on this thread (and of course our very esteemed friends, StierSifu, JPW and other Shen Men Tao members). I must ask practitioners of these arts to excuse my ignorance of Xingyi Quan and Bagua Zhang and earnestly welcome any corrections. My comments are based on what I have read and not my personal experience unless I specifically state so.

After reading Master Bruce Frantzis’ book on the internal arts (see my review), I decided to conduct some independent research into Xingyiquan and Bagua Zhang. I was first of all most interested to find out about the basic training, notably the stances, zhan zhuang and neigong training. I was least interested in the forms. Imagine to my surprise when I found quite a plethora of information in Chinese and English.

As far as I can tell, the one basic force training in Xingyi Quan is the San Ti posture. From this one stance comes all the internal power and even reflexes and fighting ability in a Xingyi practitioner. I am not sure about Bagua Zhang, but even in Taijiquan, no one stance is responsible for so much. Much has been said about the importance of the 3 Circle stance, but it is not as ubiquitous among all Taijiquan schools as the San Ti stance is among the various Xingyi divisions. For example, some lineages from Yang Shaohou and Wu Jianquan do not practice the 3- Circle Stance at all, Does Shen Men Tao regard the 3 Circle Stance as a core training method?

Back to the San Ti stance. It is interesting to note that this stance is used for stance training as well as for combat in the same way – there may be variations as to height and openness (the stance may be closer together in combat to protect the groin, for example). I also find it interesting that the feet are in a straight line, as in the Taijiquan practiced by Shen Men Tao and our own Shaolin Wahnam attack stance (Bow Arrow). My research on Bagua also shows that the feet in an attack stance are either crossed or in a straight line. It therefore baffles me as to why many Taijiquan lineages have width in their Bow Arrow stances. More on this later.

Additionally, I note that Xingyi Quan does not seem to have a typical forward attack stance. There are some in the 12 Animal Forms but not in the 5 Basic Steps. Like the basic Bagua stance or the Taijiquan Play the Pipa stance, 60% (or up to 100%) of the weight is placed on the rear foot. I find this curious – as a poise stance it makes sense but why is there no forward weight in an attack? Is this a case of “power from the back leg”?
I will continue on this thread later, pending responses. Join in, guys!

I have a question which I hope StierSifu can answer. Earlier, Stier Sifu said of the Bow Arrow stance in Shen Men Tao:
“

Additionally...since this stance is used to defend and counter from a side angle to the line of the opponent's attack...rather than face to face on a line...we normally experience no vulnerability of exposing the groin to attack as some people have mentioned in previous posts.”

Could you give us an example of how a Shen Men Tao practitioner would defend and counter from the side using a Bow Arrow Stance? I set out below some applications by way of comparison.

From the applications I know, this can be achieved using Fan Through Back / Fair Lady by lifting the opponent’s striking arm and attacking the space below.

Brush Knee Twist Step is a little more problematic for me. The final posture suggests that when facing the opponent, you brush a punch or kick at your lower or middle area to the side and then attack with a palm strike. This is in my view a very dangerous position since a kick can reach the groin when the left hand is busy, and by facing the enemy, his other hand is also able to reach you.

To avoid the problem, one could stick very closely to the side of the opponent (the situation resembles two people standing shoulder to shoulder but facing opposite directions, my right touching his right). Then I brush his right hand down and away to my left, and land the palm strike on his chest. At that angle, his left hand cannot reach me, and my front or rear foot can lock his feet.

We view these as two separate stances....with the 'Hong Tang Pu' or 'Horizontal Seated Stance' normally played longer and lower than the 'Kong Chien Pu' or 'Bow and Arrow Stance' in any Form Set in which both are used.

The Old Yang Chia Large Frame Long Imperial 108 Forms Set...in its original manner of performance...is practically devoid of Bow Stances...preferring instead the Horizontal Seated Stance like the Chen Chia Form Sets from which it came.

The Yang Chia Small Frame Fast Form Set uses both stances as it is a Combined Style Set...and as such...incorporates the greater variety of different stances used in the individual Style Sets it borrowed from in its creation. In this Set...there is definitely a distinction between the two stances as you noted.....with the 'Kong Chien Pu' used most often in Form Postures with waist rotation toward the more heavily weighted leg and foot...such as 'Brush Knee And Twist Step' (Lou Hsih Au Pu).....and the 'Hong Tang Pu' used most often in Form Postures with waist rotation toward the less heavily weighted leg and foot...such as 'Fan Through The Back' (Shan Tung Pei) and 'Single Whip'

Practically speaking for purposes of combat, what is the difference between these two stances? Is the Bow Arrow Stance more effective? And is the direction of the waist rotation significant?

[HugoDarien]

Shen Men Tao

Good Day! SifuStier - Thanks for your replies and everyone else too!

Now when we talking about defence I wonder if in Shen Men Tao you use the Centreline Theory that the Ancient Military Strategists taught, they said that: “In order to destroy the enemy, destroy its centre.” They considered the Centreline as ‘a jewel worth protecting and a vulnerable target to attack.’

To example Guan Yu, the military hero, used the theory of the Centreline to win many battles. The Sun Tzu Ping Fa also refers to this strategy!

Do you find some similar tactics in Shen Men Tao and in the book Sun Tzu The Art of War ?

Thanks! Good Day!

[Sifu Stier]

Hsing-Yi Chuan Footwork in Shen Men Tao

Hello Wuji!

The Shansi Hsing-Yi Chuan taught in Shen Men Tao is practiced with three different methods of footwork....Short Step, Medium Step, and Long Step.

Of these, the Medium Step is presented as the Standard Footwork in three parts. Typically, there is a withdrawal of the lead foot of San-Ti followed by a half-step forward with the lead foot, then a full forward step of the rear foot of San-Ti, and a short follow-up step of the new rear foot to compensate for any 'bounce-back' resulting from striking a solid mass like another person's body. When using this method of footwork, the Fa-Jing is issued while advancing the body weight and its momentum during the full forward step. This three part stepping is common to all Hsing-Yi Styles I have seen, and is the reason that the various Hsing-Yi Styles are sometimes referred to as San-Pu-Chuan or Three Step Boxing.

However, these same three parts are also performed with a very compacted Short Step which allows the footwork to be used at extremely close quarters when fighting. Since the body weight is not gliding forward with alot of momentum when using the Short Step Footwork, the forward step of the rear foot from San-Ti is usually performed with 'Heavy Treading'...i.e. a heavy stomp which drops the body weight into the strike at close range in lieu of gliding it forward.

Additionally, the same three part footwork can be expanded and lengthened to maximize the forward momentum of the body weight for external power, or to 'bridge the gap' and 'control the interval' between yourself and a taller opponent with a longer reach. This eliminates the disadvantageous position of remaining at arms length with a longer limbed opponent.

Training in the Shansi Hsing-Yi Chuan of Shen Men Tao incorporates practicing ALL of the Five Element Fists and ALL of the 12 Animal Styles with ALL three of these methods of footwork. In this way, they can then be automatically and spontaneously combined and linked as changes in distance and circumstance require when fighting.

[jpw]

Footwork: great discussion

Thank you Zhang Wuji, in my opinion excellent discussion line. I have a brief time but, I will comment alittle. Please excuse typos and poor word choices.

As always Sifu's comments will add more precision and know how than mine but, I have come the love the Shen Men Tao footwork and San Ti!

A few observations:

1. In my studies and observation, I found that some form of San Ti was in each of our other arts (TC and Ba Gua) under a different name. So in SMT I came to see San Ti under various names and themes in practice and application.

So, after some study, when I would see pictures of many old style masters of other internal arts, I am able to look at their stances and see (percieve) San Ti. The examples that come to mind are a picture of Fu Zhong Wen (excuse me if I mispelled the name) near the front of his book on TC. He is in what appears to be a solo photo of him (maybe) mid way while doing roll back. I realized with very small modifications of the stance it was like San Ti. Some picutres from Sun's Swimming body BG ...basically San Ti (as it ought be) when you observe the photos of Sun. Also, pictures of Chen Wei Ming ( student of Yang CF, Yang's TC) when "back weighted" appear (in principle) much like San Ti. This is my observation and in my own study helped me come to my own understanding of pracitice and applications based upon my learning from Sifu.

2. Whenn in highschool and first two years of college I did some amatuer boxing. To be sure, I was more of a "gym rat" than seeking the lights. I learned from two great boxing trainers and developed basic skills but my life style and career was not on the line for pro boxing. However, I learned my fundamentals from a former (middleweight pro(?)) Mr. leonard Payt (payton) in north philly. He had a systematic (and lost art) for teaching the sweet western science. I was blessed with learning this systematic way.

After training with Sifu Stier (years latyer) for several years I came to see the stance taught by Mr Payt as Santi with the weight forward. Again, in terms of stance (not hands) very minor adjustments with a weight shift back, and you would be back to SMT's san ti. Not many may not see it but I saw it.

I had the full realization, when observed Sifu do some playful sparring with a teacher of hard styles (various arts) in the backyard of Sifus house, one time in the early 90s. That is, I was able to observe Sifu doing Chinese boxing with mainly San Ti and variations (weight shifts, twist, evasions) while playing with the other teacher. I was able to appreciate the Chinese boxing aspects of SMTand it helped a "light bulb" go on in my training and study that continues to this day. (I hope this makes sense). (I am hoping, that Sifu, you may remember, some our conversation about your use of san ti and its relation to chinese boxing from that day) maybe? If not, for me that observation of the sparring that day was insightful to my own study and practice. I remember the images and visions clearly.

3. One other thing, based upon my training, the back weightedness, tends to allow you to "issue" with out over commting so that, if your opponent is able to counter you still have something in reserve. As I developed (and develop) power I do not have an issue of generating enough power to move many power players if my technique is right. I find i do not have to fully commit or weight shift forward. So, can remain more back weighted and still issue plenty.

To be sure, I am reserved by nature, so sometimnes I do not show what may be availalbe. But, my SMT and internal none egotisitcal skills have never failed me when actually needed. That is, after, I started to get some skill. I have been opushed around, embarrassed and knock down many times before I started to acquire something. But, i am often a "tortoise in the race".

Thank you lord, love and light to all. I hope this adds some indight and food for thouhgt. Know that Sifu and others are more knoweldgeable and able.

Be great,

JPW

[chud]

Cool post Sifu JPW, thanks for sharing that.
Although I am just a novice and the road ahead of me is long, I look forward to learning from Sifu Stier.

[HugoDarien]

Shen Men Tao

Good Day! SifuStier!

Im waiting for buying your book! Now I wonder if you going to whrite in your book histories of the ancestors of the art!? That would be vvery nice! What it goinng to be the name of the book?

You said to me that in Shen Men Tao there is not Talisman annd religion stuff! And I respekt that, but I wonnder why can not a martial art have those stuff or some kind of religions stuff?

Another question is that I belive that no one can learn dim mak or dian xue from a book! Do you agreed whit this?

Thanks!

[Sifu Stier]

Individual practitioners of Shen Men Tao may of course follow whatever religious beliefs they wish to privately aside from their Shen Men Tao training. But as I stated previously, Shen Men Tao is NOT a religion and thus has no formal connections to any religious organizations.

Nor is it a method of spiritual magic employing talismans and such. These things have no place in our training and instruction program, not because they are viewed as 'bad' or uninteresting, but because magical operations are not the focus of our agenda priorities...and because they have nothing to do with developing high level martial art skills.

Skills result from consistently correct study and training, not from magic!

Extraordinary skills require extraordinary efforts, not extraordinary means!

[Sifu Stier]

Wuji:

Tai-Chi Chuan defensive responses generally move forward into the attack, rather than retreating from it. 'Peng' or 'Ward-Off' for example expresses dynamic forward motion both energetically and physically. So...if I respond to an opponent's jab or straight punch by advancing toward him with either foot while using 'Ward-Off' Form as played in the Set, I will be shifting my weight forward into a 'Bow and Arrow Stance'. I will also be lifting his outstretched arm and hand upward as I advance and will be rotating it outward to the side. Thus, the combination of lifting upward and rotating sideways has the effect of turning the opponent's body away from me, thus presenting a side angle of defense and countermeasure line from a forward weighted 'Bow and Arrow Stance'. When the opponent's body position is compromised in this way, and his force and balance are neutralized in this way, he no longer has the right spatial relationship or stability to attack my groin or any other viable body target. Wish I could show you instead of telling you about it!

The Tai-Chi Chuan and Hsing-Yi Chuan preference is to move the opponent's body sideways to 'neutralize' his force while stepping into the attack...either upward and outward or downward and outward...away from the defense centerline in order to produce an 'angle' of counter-attack which is either difficult or impossible for the opponent to defend against.

Pa-Kua Chuan preference is to also step into the attack while neutralizing, but stepping more laterally to move around the opponent to the side and rear of him in order to outflank the enemy and apply countermeasure from a much more advantageous position at the side rear....which is also either difficullt or impossible for the opponent to address effectively.

[HugoDarien]

Skills result from consistently correct study and training, not from magic!

Extraordinary skills require extraordinary efforts, not extraordinary means![/QUOTE]

INFINITY THANKS VENERABLE SifuStier

[Sifu Stier]

Dear Mr. Darien:

Thank you so much for your continued expressions of courtesy and respect!

Traditionally, however, words such as 'Venerable' are usually used only when addressing elderly Monks or Priests of high rank and standing. I am neither a monk nor a priest...but merely a simple man with education and experience in certain areas of study.

As such, I would be most pleased to have you address me simply as 'Sifu Stier'. Thank you for your attention to this matter. Have a wonderful day!

[HugoDarien]

Shen Men Tao

Good Night SifuStier!

Forgive me for calling you Venerable now on it would be just SifuStier, thanks for you like my expressions of courtesy and respect( you welcome) And good luck in the future!

Good Night !!!