Chinese-Gov-created Tai Chi and Tai Chi principles

[beausimon]

Hi,
Following references to Tai Chi dance in previous threads, are the Chinese-government-created standard Tai Chi forms such as 24-Yang, 88-Yang, 73-Sun and 56-Chen considered as Tai Chi dance, devoid of Tai Chi principles? Is the problem with the standard Tai Chi forms themselves or is it the person who performs the standard forms?

[Sifu Stier]

A Matter of Design Intention!

The standardized Form Sets created by the China Sports Committee and other Government Agencies were never intended to be practiced for the training of Kung-Fu skills. In fact, they were deliberately designed to prevent such skill development, while still retaining sufficient health exercise benefits to improve the average per capita health of China's huge population. World Census figures reveal that perhaps 20% of the Earth's human population, or one of every five people alive today, is Chinese and living in the People's Republic of China! China has nearly identical land area size as the United States does, but seven to nine times the population, depending on where you go. Think about where most of you live now, and how it would be if the local population suddenly increased by 7X!!! Whewww!

I don't view these Form Sets as devoid of Tai-Chi Principles, but merely routines which are energetically less dynamic than older traditional Sets in their sequence and variety of postures, and taught to be performed in a 'style' which is not intended to be translated into or interpreted as 'boxing' application.

[Antonius]

If the Beijing 24 were devoid of genuine Taijiquan principles, then Sifu Wong wouldn't bother teaching it. He does.

Personally, I think it's a great set, which is no surprise since it was created by a group of masters who, at the time, didn't really know anything other than geunine kung fu. The set, as taught by Sifu Wong, is effective for both health and defense.

[Chiahua]

Personally, I think it's a great set, which is no surprise since it was created by a group of masters who, at the time, didn't really know anything other than geunine kung fu. The set, as taught by Sifu Wong, is effective for both health and defense.

Which highlights the fact that it's not so much the set you practice, what's important is how you practice the set. Having read the articles on the Tiger Crane sets, it strikes me that both are equally efficacious so long as they are practiced properly.

[beausimon]

Hi Sifustier,
Can we say that these standard form sets contain some of the principles that are relevant for health but have intentionally been stripped of those principles related to combat ?

Hi Anthony,
Is this the way that the 24-form that Sifu Wong taught is done ?
Beijing 24 video

Hi Sunyata,

what's important is how you practice the set

It is said that if you do the set with the correct principles, it will not look like the video above anymore. Which means that it is no longer compliant with the standard and you will lose points in wushu competition Hopefully, anyone who has judged at wushu competitions can help to verify this.

[Antonius]

Is this the way that the 24-form that Sifu Wong taught is done ?

Not even close. Same set. Different art.

[Robin]

Dance

In my own expirience I have found that any Taijiquan set can be performed as a dance ,just as any Taijiquan set can be taught as genuine Taijiquan . When we say 'taiji dance' we normally refer to the performance of a Taijiquan set done as a external exercise ( like a dance) as opposed to trained as a internal martial art . In Wahnam Taijiquan, the form, energy and the mind are all trained .

[yeniseri]

Beijing forms

So called government forms are good for building the nation and that was their main purpose. For the casual practitioner, it is nice to do something to be healthy. Form is form so it in itself, does not provide more or less energetic qi than any other. The main seal is the practitioner.
The purpose of taijiquan was to spread it to all citizens and to nuture what is called yangshenggong. It is known that the martial part was not taught so the knowledge was one sided. In short, the Beijing forms are no better or worse than any other type of form.

Here's why? The 'Mind Seal' (expertise/experience/knowledge/) of the specific practitioner can make any form come alive because he sees through the emptiness of form (form is emptiness and emptiness is form). That is what distinguishes one teacher from another-the inability to see the synchronicity/interconnectedness within all things.

Why can some teachers take an ordinary form and make it more enegetic than another teacher who say x form does not have that same energy?

Sifu Wong (I have never met him) seesm to have such vast experience (I am not talking about form) that he can teach the basics of qigong (to allow the practitioner to continue on his/her own) within 10 days where other teachers says it takes 10 years to reach the same goal! I am also not saying one can know al of qigong in 10 days but the principle taught will allow the person to follow through over time and gain knowlwedge (providing he is assiduous in practice) in a short period.

It is the quality of instruction that is impoerant, like any other thing.

[Andrew]

Why can some teachers take an ordinary form and make it more enegetic than another teacher who say x form does not have that same energy?

The big difference can be summed up in a single word -- skill.

Sifu can transmit the basic skills (which are actually very advanced skills from some peoples' perspective) in a short time. Others who do not have this level of teaching and transmitting skill but themselves possess the skills being taught may also pass these on -- but it would take much much longer. Those, however, who do not even themselves believe the skills exist have no chance whatsoever.

Andrew

[Zhang Wuji]

Ever since I learnt the 108 form, I have never liked the communist 24 form. The 24 form is very useful for beginners, I will give it that, but maybe i am prejudiced or something, its history is tainted by the fact is was created under the auspices of a bad government (party / dictator?) that later persecuted the very people who created the form.

I found this article which if you take it at face value indicates that the traditional form has been corrupted by communist/socialist ideology.

From Master Wong Doc-Fai's article

In 1949, China turned to Communism. Most of the martial arts systems were not allowed to practice anymore. But tai chi was proven good for health, therefore the government decided to put out a shorter sequence form for the people to practice. In the early 1950s, citizens were encouraged to learn the "24 form." This form can be completed in four-to-six minutes and has both left- and right-hand movements. The 24 form is not like the original 108 form with its complicated repetitions and the 15-to-20 minutes required to finish. The new shorter form was easier to learn and easier to remember. It had the added advantage for the government of getting tai chi enthusiasts to work quicker!

When a person practiced it three times in a row, it was almost equivalent to the old form. Since the "leftist" Communist government in China developed the "24 form," people were required to start to the left instead of the right, as was the case with the original Yang form!

[Sifu Stier]

Very interesting to read Wong Doc-Fai Sifu's comments. He speaks from long term personal experience. I have known him for about 30 years.....during which his reputation as an Acupuncturist and Kung-Fu Sifu has always been top drawer! His Wu/Ng Style Tai-Chi Chuan is very high level.....and his performance of Choy Lay Fut Style (Tsai Li Fa) is the best I have ever seen personally.

[yeniseri]

Wuji

Practicing the 24 Beijing form is not like practicing the Zhenduo/Chengfu long form. Antonius has it right he said it is the skill of the teacher not the form.
I do teach and practice the 24 form but not according to the Beijing bureau.

For one thing, the 24 form is exaggerated in its movements, too much sitting back then pivot/turn, no chansigong-silk reeling movement but other than that it is health related. The 24 is the most studied of all taijiquan and has shown good effects for all people.

I do not believe the hype of workers working quicker with the 24 from. It id good propaganda, nonetheless.

[joko]

For one thing, the 24 form is exaggerated in its movements, too much sitting back then pivot/turn, no chansigong-silk reeling movement but other than that it is health related.

I agree with you, but I understood these points only after I attended Sifu's Course in Shaolin Chikung.

Anyway, those were the first forms that I learned, and I am grateful to the people who created them.

My practice of Taijiquan form has improved much, indeed very much, after I attended Sifu's Chi Kung Course. Once we have energy flow in our practice, the refinement of the movement will take care of themselves. Among other things, I do not do too much sitting back in my practice now.

Recently I started practicing Chen-style forms, and only after that that I could feel the chansijing in the Yang-style form -it is more subtle than that in Chen-style form. In my humble opinion (forgive me for giving an opinion since I am still a novice in this subject) the subtler chansijing in Yang-style form is somewhat more advanced.

Joko

[Sifu Stier]

I find very little to really like in the Beijing Simplified 24 Forms Tai-Chi Set. It is very incomplete in its variety of Form Postures.....requires too large of an area in which to practice.....is too short in length...necessitating too many boring repetitions of the routine to generate a sustained chi flow.....and the 'official' standard style of performance....which is essentially designed to be 'non-style'..... is almost totally devoid of any martial application potential!

Of course.....these shortcomings could be corrected by a competent Master in order to improve the Set......but why bother? In my opinion.....it would be a case of too large of an investment in time and effort.....with too small of a return.....to bother fixing it! Section One of Yang Long Imperial 108 Forms Set is a better 'short form' for beginners......even though it has fewer postures.....since it doesn't need fixing!

[yeniseri]

Stier Sifu

The Beijing 24 form is the most researched of all taijiquan and I think smart people can derive benefit from it. The martial potential exists in it like any other form of taijiquan but the caveat is that one must be taught the martial side.

There is no taijiquan form that the martial part comes naturally just by doing the form. Maybe the form you teach is far superior that by just doing the form one automatically will possess that skill.

Praise be unto you because you will be the most sought after sifu on the planet.

my apologies for understimating the power of your system