Breathing methods and control in Taijiquan

[Antonius]

Don't get me started on Lifting the Sky or Pushing Mountains.

I use the Taijiquan pattern Swinging Fist (or Reverse Hanging of Golden Lotus in Shaolinquan) for many things. If I don't have much time to practice forms in a session, then I will often do this one pattern over and over many times. I do this for many different reasons: to generate an energy flow; to practice maintaining the Six Harmonies; to give me a useful pattern for combat; to develop internal force; or simply to have fun applying the same pattern to many situations (who knew this pattern could be used against kicks!).

The problem I find in practicing one pattern deeply is that, the deeper you go, the more you find! Think of all those patterns, and all the practice time necessary to go deeply into them all.

And yet, that's not necessary. I think that if you go deeply into a few patterns (Like Yang Lu Chan with Grasping Sparrow's Tail?), then the benefits can be transferred to other patterns. I've found this to be true. I think that's how I can so easily transfer some of my Shaolinquan skills to Taijiquan.

[DarkCosmoz]

Here's my 2 Cents:

I find that practicing just Beng Quan, or Crushing Fist, in Xingyiquan made my eyes and mind better: I am able to see things much more clearly and calmly now. I also discovered on my own that Beng Quan, although very simple in its movement, has a variety of combat applications (the form can be changed since its the intent that counts).

[Jeffrey Segal]

The Shaolin Wahnam Perspective

Hello Everybody,

I hope you are all enjoying the holiday season. Before we turn again to the theme proper of this thread, it may be useful for me to clarify my purpose in this and other debates that involve different aspects of Form, Force, Combat Application and Philosophy, the 4 pillars of great martial arts.

This is the official Shaolin Wahnam Discussion Forum and being a Wahnam Taijiquan instructor, it is my duty and great privilege to put forth the Shaolin Wahnam views on those points presented here that differ from ours, so that the many Shaolin Wahnam students reading this pages will not be confused into thinking that our remaining silent is a form of tacit agreement.

I am very careful about mentioning “Shaolin Wahnam views” and when I do so, it is with Sifu’s blessing. Sifu pays close attention to this forum and considers our posting here to be a vital part of our training.

Please remember that when we mention any disagreement, it does not mean that we disrespect other views, though we honestly think our views are correct. We make no apology for this statement that we think our views are correct - just as others who think their views are correct need not apologise for their belief. It is only logical. If we didn’t think our views were best (for ourselves), we would not hold them or follow them dedicatedly in our daily practice.

Similarly, respecting other views does not mean hypocritically saying how right and wonderful their views are when we know that personally we ourselves would not accept and follow those views. What it does mean is that we accept their right to their views and different practice and would not attempt to change them. What they choose to believe and practice is their own business. However, if someone values and appreciates our advice, we are ready to offer our help generously. In many ways this whole forum is a glorious elaboration of these principles.

Next post, back to breathing

[Jeffrey Segal]

breathing structure

Hello again!

I’d like to now spend some time addressing the various questions and points that have been put forward in this thread.

I have been fascinated with the Shaolin Wahnam breath control techniques,which according to Sifu allows the exponent to spar for hours without being tired. Unfortunately, I have yet to experience this first-hand (but I soon will). Also according to Sifu's book "The Complete Book of Shaolin", Four Gates is performed with 5 breaths. I am wondering about that, because in between each breath, there are striking movements (or in Taijiquan parlance, fajing movements) which should require an expulsion of breath. I would have thought each strike requires an outbreath to expel the qi (and waste). Maybe the Shaolinquan instructors could explain this to me, although it is probably all academic.

Breath control is found not just in Shaolinquan but also in Taijiquan. It is surprising how few martial arts schools pay close attention to such an important aspect of combat application.

Depending on the purpose at hand and the various levels of attainment, students employ a variety of breathing methods. Initially, when the emphasis is on correct form and reasonable force, they use one breath per pattern. Later on, when the emphasis is on fluidity and speed, but without sacrificing correct form and force, they may use one breath for a series of patterns.

In such a series, there may be zero, one or more strikes, and each strike is usually executed with an out-breath. If for example, there are three strikes in that series, there will be three out-breaths. If the three strikes are consecutive, they may all be executed with just one out-breath.

One gains a clearer understanding of the above by realising that a breath does not necessarily consist of just one in-breath and one out-breath. Breathing methods in Shaolin Wahnam are quite sophisticated and the following are just three of many breathing-structures. Each structure below constitutes one breath.

1. In - out - out - out - swallow.
2. In - follow - out - swallow.
3. Out - in - follow - out.

"Follow", or "sui" in Chinese, is a breathing technique where the exponent gently holds the breath but allow it to slip out naturally. "Swallow", or "tun" is another breathing technique (referred to by Andrew on page 1 of this thread) where one gently lets the remaining energy sink gently into the dantian. My repeated use of the word gently here is no accident. Both the intention and the action are performed gently.

The amount of breath or energy involved as well as the time in between breathing techniques is regulated according to the intended purpose. For example, the first breath above, which involves five breathing techniques may be three times longer or just half as long as the second breath involving four breathing techniques.

I believe that in saying this is “probably all academic”, Wuji was referring to the fact that it will remain so for him until he has attended the intensive Shaolinquan course. I’m really looking forward to hearing from him, post-intensive Shaolinquan course! From the perspective of a student of Wahnam Taijiquan or Shaolinquan, all that I have written is by no means academic. These are the practical means that enable Shaolin Wahnam students to spar for hours without feeling tired. There are of course many other benefits. When you pay with your platinum card, you get all sorts of bonuses.

Now for some fun: Would anybody like to offer a sequence of patterns that follows any of the breathing sequences I have mentioned above? Shaolinquan practitioners are welcome to use patterns from their own repertoire.

Now it’s time for me to go to the park and train!

Best wishes,

[Zhang Wuji]

I believe that in saying this is “probably all academic”, Wuji was referring to the fact that it will remain so for him until he has attended the intensive Shaolinquan course.

Thank you, Jeffrey for that excellent and illuminating post - it answered just about every question I had. The only question left is "How do I do that?"

And yes, I meant it is academic for me. Because I have not experienced it yet, I can only make intellectual guesses, but i certainly want to learn the skill. I certainly did not mean that the fantastic breath control techniques and methods in Shaolin Wahnam are academic. And so, the answer to my question above is "learn from Sifu at the intensive Shaolinquan course."

And to make it even more fantastic, all these techniques are learnt in the course itself (though to do them well requires lots of practice, if my experiences after the qigong course is anything to go by)

[Jeffrey Segal]

Hello Wuji,

I'm glad you enjoyed my post. I have plenty more information concerning the theory and practice of breathing in Wahnam Taijiquan which I plan to post over the holiday period.

And to make it even more fantastic, all these techniques are learnt in the course itself

I'm not sure whether you will learn all the techniques I've spoken of during the intensive Shaolinquan course. To be honest, I can't recall exactly which breathing techniques Sifu taught at the last intensive Shaolinquan course I attended (March 04). Apart from that, Sifu adjusts his teaching according to the level and needs of whichever students are attending so each course is different. I have a vivid memory of learning various breathing techniques specifically at the special Taijiquan course in 2002.

You can rest assured that Sifu will teach you whatever is right for you at the time you attend the course. You may even find that he teaches you some things without even mentioning them formally. These to me are 2 of the qualities that makes Sifu such a great teacher.


Best regards,

[Jeffrey Segal]

anybody?

Now for some fun: Would anybody like to offer a sequence of patterns that follows any of the breathing sequences I have mentioned above? Shaolinquan practitioners are welcome to use patterns from their own repertoire.

no takers, not even one of our instructors??

OK, how about any of our Shaolin Cosmos Qigong exercises that use "follow" or "swallow" (this one is not for instructors )

More posts on breathing coming soon.

Best,

[Antonius]

2. In - follow - out - swallow.

This is similar to what we use in One Finger Shooting Zen. It's also similar to the art Sifu taught us for increasing overall speed (by adding more and more patterns to a single breath cycle).

[Sifu Stier]

A Return to the Obvious!

Greetings to All!

I have been traveling during the Christmas Holidays, and so am just now responding to Mr. Segal's post of 12/24/2004 regarding my comments about specific breath techniques for specific purposes.

What Mr. Segal states regarding the appropriateness of my comments for novice level practitioners, rather than advanced to expert and higher level practitioners, is not unique to Wahnam practice. All comments I have made regarding nearly everything on these Forum Boards is directed primarily to the novice to intermediate level student of any style or system. Those of higher standing in any authentic system or style would already have eclipsed the foundation level principles under the guidance and instruction of their respective Masters.

The hallmark of any good Internal System is the gradual but profound mental re-programming on a sub-conscious level which allows the unified body-mind-spirit integration to automatically adjust and harmonize all aspects of any response to any circumstance, situation or event without engaging the conscious thought and decision making process, without any 'limiting' classifications or specific designations whatsoever involved!

Similarly, at expert levels of development, the practitioner is not limited in the application of any technique, and often experiences the spontaneous and effective application of a Form Posture which has never been taught or demonstrated to them by their Master! Likewise, any practice method or exercise at this level may be used to 'cross-train' any skill without limitation. Therefore, what appears initially to be the specifically limiting parameters of a particular training regimine are really nothing more than 'guidelines' intended to insure the safe and productive experience of those who are new to the practices! This is generally true of any organized 'system' of gung-fu, and thus my mention of it here is merely a return to the obvious!

Happy New Year to everyone!

[Jeffrey Segal]

Obvious to whom?

Dear Sifu Stier,

I think I understand what you are saying. You agree with our concept of Platinum Card Kungfu, indeed in your opinion it is nothing so special and is to be found in just about any organised “system” of Kungfu. As always, you are entitled to your opinion and since my own experience and that of other people I respect doesn’t follow your line of thinking (we believe that Platinum Card Kungfu is rare and worth treasuring and celebrating), I hope that you will respect my right to disagree with you.

Where you lost me somewhat is in your claim that due to its widespread prevalence, Platinum Card Kungfu is something so obvious to advanced and expert practitioners it’s hardly worth mentioning. What about all the novice and intermediate practitioners to whom you (by your own words) address most of your posts here? Are your conclusions also obvious to those who have been benefiting from your posts?

My opinion is that there are many aspects of the theory and practice of internal arts that are worth discussing, regardless of whether they are obvious to some, none or all of our readers. In a thread devoted to breathing and control in Taijiquan, I find it most appropriate to give an indication of the different ways of approaching breathing that are to be found in Wahnam Taijiquan and the fact that these breathing and other techniques are versatile and able to be used for a wide variety of purposes.

So, if we examine my posts in this thread and the reactions of our members we find that a self-proclaimed beginner, a couple of dedicated students of Sifu Wong and one of his instructors all found something that either resonated with their own experience or answered some questions they had concerning breathing in Taijiquan. Also, I know for a fact that Sifu approves of my posts here and sees the dissemination of information (based on sound theory and experience) as one of the functions of this forum. That's good enough for me.

Best regards,

[Jeffrey Segal]

Back to breathing

Let’s now return to the topic of this thread and examine the use of various breathing techniques in Taijiquan practice.

Lastly, whether practicing a Set slowly for 30 minutes with Later Heaven Breath, or fighting for 30 minutes with Earlier Heaven Breath, an expert practitioner will be 'energized' from the effort rather than exhausted from it! Would anyone care to comment on why that is so?

In Wahnam Taijiquan, feeling energised after training is not only the domain of the expert practitioner. From the very first session we aim to have more energy at the completion of a session than at its commencement. Right from the start we train our Taijiquan as Qigong.

As Sifu explained in one of his recent Q-A series, we perform the patterns in a solo Taijiquan set or in sparring or fighting as Qigong just like we perform other patterns like "Lifting the Sky" and "Carrying the Moon". As a result, we have better energy flow and bigger energy volume.

Turning now to the advanced practitioner, she may perform her Taijiquan using Reverse Breathing, other types of breathing or a combination of different types of breathing. We don’t limit ourselves and in fact, in most cases we don’t worry about our breathing. We breathe spontaneously.

The spontaneous breathing of an advanced practitioner is by no means the same as the spontaneous breathing of an untrained person. When somebody who is untrained breathes spontaneously they merely breathe in and out, influenced by the nature and speed of their movements. Under normal circumstances they breathe about 15 times per minute. When performing movements that are vigorous and fast, however, their breathing rate may increase to 30 or even 60 or more times per minute. In this way they become out of breath.

When an advanced practitioner of Wahnam Taijiquan breathes spontaneously whether it is in solo set practice, sparring or actual fighting, they use a wide variety of breathing techniques according to the requirements of the situation. They are not bound by simple in-out breathing. An easy way of illustrating this principle is to remember that just as a single Taijiquan pattern, like Grasping Sparrow’s Tail contains many physical techniques (there are at least five hand techniques besides other body, leg, essence, energy and mind techniques), one breathing cycle can contain many breathing techniques. In a previous post I talked about some of these breathing techniques like “Follow” and “Swallow”. I also gave some simple examples of breathing structures.

Apart from not being bound to using one breath per technique, the breathing of a practitioner of Wahnam Taijiquan is much deeper and longer than that of an untrained person. An advanced practitioner breathes between 3 and 6 times per minute (though when needed, breathing can be quick and short). This deep, long rate of breathing is maintained even when the movements become fast and vigorous in sparring or certain sections of our Taijiquan sets. This is one of the main reasons that we do not become out of breath even after sparring for hours, like for example, at Sifu’s intensive courses in Taijiquan or Shaolinquan. Andrew mentioned in an earlier post that all those who have attended one of these courses can attest to this fact.

Another important reason that it is possible to feel energised rather than tired after training Taijiquan is that when training correctly, energy is added to and stored at the dantian using “Swallow” to complete the breathing structure. Through systematic training, an advanced practitioner will be storing Qi at her dantian with every breath.

So, it is a combination of deep, slow breathing and the constant storage of energy at the dantian that makes us feel energised rather than tired after our Taijiquan training.

It is relevant and important to remember that in discussing breathing in Taijiquan we are talking about far more than an exchange of air between the lungs and the atmosphere. I’m sure that some of our resident Qigong scholars know that the Chinese were referring to Qi in terms of energy a long time before the existence of air had been “discovered”.

Also of relevance and importance is that a pre-requisite for training Taijiquan as Qigong is being able to enter and remain in a Qigong state of mind.

Relax, Smile from the Heart and enjoy your training,

[Sifu Stier]

Obvious or Oblivious?

Mr. Segal:

Only those who read these posts can say whether they grasp the content of anyone's writing. Hopefully, an atmosphere of open exchange can be maintained which will allow questions from those who need clarification. I agree totally that any and all aspects of the topic at hand are worthy of discussion, and that such discussion will be particularly beneficial to those who have little or no previous experience or are not yet expert in their practice. Logic would suggest that those who have already attained expertise in their training do not need our input to validate and maintain same! I am even willing to concede that a specific breath technique, like anything else, may be perceived and practiced differently by different styles or schools, and that in doing so, it is appropriate to designate such preferences with a proprietary name such as 'Platinum Card Kung-Fu'.

What I question is the idea that common domain methods, which are obviously accessible to and employed by many styles and schools of kung-fu, are unique to any one of these systems, whether it be yours or mine, or someone else's system. This would seem obvious to me! If you disagree with this view, that is your perogative. Knock yourself out arguing your differences of opinion! More power to you in doing so!

What appears to me as oblivious to many practitioners is the ancient idea of validation through personal demonstration as the final word. Ultimately, there probably is no single best style for everyone, or else there wouldn't be so many different styles to choose from; probably no single best Teacher for everyone, even within a specific style, or else we'd all be students of the same Teacher; probably no single practitioner of any style who is the ultimate and final 'authority' on these topics, or else we wouldn't be comparing notes with one another!

Therefore, what remains as the indisputable validation of any theory, any style, any specific practice method, regardless of the names attached to them, is the personal demonstration of their efficacy and benefit by the individual practitioner! The ways in which each of us have impacted our health of mind and body through our respective practices is clear for all to see. How gracefully we age with each passing year; how often we fall ill with colds, flu, or allergies; how quickly we recover and heal from cuts, burns, bruises, fractures, etc. are easily visible to all who have regular association with each of us. Since all such indicators of efficacy and benefit can be directly impacted by the unified regulation of mind and breath, those who obviously demonstrate a personal presentation which clearly surpasses the experience of the average person must be into something special, and must be more skilled at it than others are! Who can deny this to be true?

It always amazes me that people in many fields of endeavor expect others to accept their claims of expertise and 'authority' without any personal demonstration of same whatsoever. Most of us don't have to look very hard or very far to find these folks. They are the 'Doctors' who obviously don't look very healthy, the martial art 'Masters' who don't appear very athletic or fit, the spiritual and meditation 'Gurus' and 'Experts' who don't seem to be very 'grounded' and 'centered' in 'neutralilty' or particularly 'Enlightened' in their views. Why should anyone believe them and embrace their methods and views? I figure that if someone is promoting something that doesn't seem to be working well for them, and their the 'expert' at it, then it probably won't work for me either! Anything is possible, but some things are highly improbable!

Lastly, I am here only to give my assests away. If anyone finds value or benefit in my posts, they are welcome to take my offerings and use them as they see fit to. If nobody finds value in my posts, I don't care. If nobody agrees with me, it's OK! I already have my accomplishments, and maintain same solely through my own practice. I have no wish or need to argue or compete with anyone! I have never insisted, as others do, that my system, Shen Men Tao, is any better than other systems or anything special and unique compared to ther systems. Never! Not once! I have asked for NOTHING here, but continue to receive far more quantity of far less quality than I offer.

[Andrew]

Jeffrey - thanks for the wonderful posts. Great information and very well presented. I have found everything very useful to date and look forward to reading more from you and any others with a positive contribution to this topic.

Sifu Stier - I am saddened that I find it necessary to write this. But comments such as

Knock yourself out arguing your differences of opinion! More power to you in doing so!

are not necessary. Please refrain from such things which appear aggressive towards others. This forum should be a debating and discussion platform devoid of aggression as far as possible.

If anyone finds value or benefit in my posts, they are welcome to take my offerings and use them as they see fit to. If nobody finds value in my posts, I don't care. If nobody agrees with me, it's OK!

The tone of your previous paragraphs does not seem to support this statement.

I have asked for NOTHING here, but continue to receive far more quantity of far less quality than I offer.

Then please present us with the quality material you have to offer. I am sure we are all looking forward to it.

Andrew

[Jeffrey Segal]

Walking the Talk

Greetings, Sifu Stier!

Therefore, what remains as the indisputable validation of any theory, any style, any specific practice method, regardless of the names attached to them, is the personal demonstration of their efficacy and benefit by the individual practitioner! The ways in which each of us have impacted our health of mind and body through our respective practices is clear for all to see. How gracefully we age with each passing year; how often we fall ill with colds, flu, or allergies; how quickly we recover and heal from cuts, burns, bruises, fractures, etc. are easily visible to all who have regular association with each of us. Since all such indicators of efficacy and benefit can be directly impacted by the unified regulation of mind and breath, those who obviously demonstrate a personal presentation which clearly surpasses the experience of the average person must be into something special, and must be more skilled at it than others are! Who can deny this to be true?

It always amazes me that people in many fields of endeavor expect others to accept their claims of expertise and 'authority' without any personal demonstration of same whatsoever. Most of us don't have to look very hard or very far to find these folks. They are the 'Doctors' who obviously don't look very healthy, the martial art 'Masters' who don't appear very athletic or fit, the spiritual and meditation 'Gurus' and 'Experts' who don't seem to be very 'grounded' and 'centered' in 'neutralilty' or particularly 'Enlightened' in their views. Why should anyone believe them and embrace their methods and views? I figure that if someone is promoting something that doesn't seem to be working well for them, and their the 'expert' at it, then it probably won't work for me either! Anything is possible, but some things are highly improbable!

One of the truly wonderful aspects of this forum is that so many of us know one another and have met and trained with each other repeatedly over the years at courses taught by Sifu and our brother and sister instructors. It has been my joy and privilege to witness (lasting) transformations in people from many different backgrounds.

One of the most important tenets of our training is:

Don’t take anything on faith alone. Try it for yourself and see if it works for you.

I can honestly say that I have met hundreds of Sifu’s students and many students of Sifu’s students. The common theme is that they are healthy, happy and full of joyful vitality.

May our honoured guests continue to enjoy posting here, safe in the knowledge that we consider it vital to be able to “walk the talk”

Best regards,

[Sifu Stier]

Where's the Meat?

Andrew:

Show us some of YOUR quality material! All I can remember reading from you is confusion and critical commentary. Is that all you have to offer? Please share from YOUR experience in training. I would very much like to read what YOU have to offer as a teacher.

What do you wish to teach me? How do you propose to benefit me? What can you add to what I already may know? Please assume nothing regarding my knowledge base. Teach me as you would the beginner's in your class! Tell me what to do, and how to do it, so that I might receive the same benefits that you have received! I anxiously await your instruction.