Fighting methods in Shaolin Kungfu

[George]

Dear Jamie,

There are a few points I must respectfully disagree with.

Secondly, many tournaments these days are not 'slap 'n' tickle' points based but full contact ( Ring out, Knock out or Submission ). Any Man or Woman who enters a competition with these rules has a lot of respect from me.

This is very much like the respect one has for people who (for example) walk into bar fights. I respect the fact that they have 'balls' but I feel Wuju's point that their Wushu skills were not worthy of respect, and not appropriate for a Wushu tournament at national level. The whole point is that these people are supposed to be martial artists, not just people who beat the living shit out of each other.

It is easy to discuss this sat in front of a computer but to walk into a ring where your opponent is planning to 'knock your teeth in' is very, very different.

A very valid point, but a bit off topic here.

The 'San Da' or 'San Sou' used in Wushu combat tournaments is a relatively new system. Like any other style, it will eventually produce high quality fighters.

Except the point was that they were not using Wushu. This system might produce better fighters, but I don't see how it will produce better Wushu fighters.

It is still 'my' opinion that it is not always the system but more the practitioner that adds the combat efficiency.

Indeed, but if they are learning (and competing in) Wushu (or any other art) then they should improve their combat efficiency within the art, or else go and learn something else, if they feel their art is inadequate for fighting!

I am not qualified to comment on the combat efficiency of Wushu, therefore I ignore this point, but it does not really matter as you can replace 'Wushu' with the name of any other art.

Also, I genuinely mean no offence, I just speak (read: 'rant') what I feel.

.George.

[Antonius]

Anyone who has trained in Wushu, and then is lucky enough to discover a genuine school, such as ours will gain from their experience.

I think the same can be said of almost any martial art. Spending time learning forms -- of any variety -- can help prepare you for learning genuine Kungfu. But that is not ideal. The time would be much better spent actually learning genuine Kungfu, or any genuine martial art, like Jujitsu.

Secondly, many tournaments these days are not 'slap 'n' tickle' points based but full contact ( Ring out, Knock out or Submission ).

So because they now smack each other like children instead of tickling each other like children, we should respect them more? I'm not a fan of point sparring, but at least it was civilized.

It is easy to discuss this sat in front of a computer but to walk into a ring where your opponent is planning to 'knock your teeth in' is very, very different.

It's a tournament, not real fighting. Your opponent is not planning to knock your teeth in. If he were, then he would not be wearing gloves.

I often wondered what Sifu meant by "fighting like children". Well, now I have seen first-hand what he meant.

It's very sad, but it's probably for the best to have your eyes opened. What I find most saddening is that many people will vehemently argue that this (what you saw) is genuine Kungfu.

As I've said before, that's not Kungfu.

[Zhang Wuji]

Hi Jamie

how interesting that you replied, because I was thinking of you when I wrote about a Shaolin Wahnam disciple being able to take the wushu exponents. I was watching you spar during the Review course and was most impressed.

Well, to avoid any doubt, let me disclose that I was a wushu student as well, so I fully agree that it creates beautiful and stunning form. I do not mean to demean the art in any way (it is after all part of my cultural background) Because I was a wushu student, I was so appalled that no wushu was used at all. I have also free-sparred as a karateka and I know what it is like to have your mind freeze when someone is rushing at you. None of the techniques one had practised comes to mind. I understand that as a result, the exponents could not fight well.

I wrote this post to point out two things: a) A systematic sparring methodology is essential for fighting, as you fortunate ones have discovered (and I hope to soon join the ranks) and, following from that b) poor fighting skills leads to violence and brutality which fighters use to "supplement" their skills.

I take your point that it is easy to discuss this in front of a PC, but I did say that I probably could not handle some of the strikes by the competitors. It is a great pity really. Some of them were obviously so talented yet they used it to bash in another fellow wushu practitioner's face. It was sheer brutality at its worst, and with no finesse or civility as Antonius put it.

[alexstedman]

why do they spar?

Dear All

I have been following this thread for some time, and while reading the latest 'Wushu sparring' post, a thought came to me that I could not answer.
Wushu is a demonstrative sport. I know that we all know this, and this was what the chinese government had in mind when promoting it(?). So why then, do they insist on sparring? And in the end, just get beaten up, and then go on to say that it's genuine kungfu? I mean, I'm starting to giggle while writing this, because it sounds absolutely INSANE to me?! Someone pleeeeease tell me why, when they know its a sport where they are supposed to look beautiful, do they insist on fighting? It's like getting gymnasts to don gloves and have a go at each other!

I eagerly wait for your replies.

Yours gigglingly
Alex

[Antonius]

To quote Sifu:

To compound the confusion, the present Chinese government promotes wushu as a sport, and not as a martial art. Consequently, when participants (including masters) practice wushu, they focus on beautiful forms for demonstration, as this is where points are given by umpires in wushu competitions. Wushu practitioners do not train self defence! In other words, modern wushu is what traditional masters would call “flowery fists and embroidery kicks”.

However, some wushu practitioners attempt to remedy this lack of combat efficiency in wushu by introducing free sparring into their art. Free sparring is called “san da” in Chinese. But their attempt at free sparring or “san da” is unmethodical, with the result that it looks much like Kick-Boxing with little or no wushu forms.

I think they probably felt embarrassed, so they added sparring. Hence the invention of San Shou in the 1990s. They've even adopted a stupid saying which is becoming popular in China:

San Shou shi Wushu de Jinghua
(San Shou is the essence of Wushu)

And yes, I'm laughing.

[Mark A]

Wushu Sparring

Hey Folks,
I have just been reading this thread and I thought I would add my own thought on this.

I agree that Samhda is not Kung Fu ( I use this term as Wushu is the term that the chinese government are using and has certain connotations). And the State of Wushi in modern china is not Kung Fu, far from it.

I agree with my Sihing Anthony that learning a genuine martial arts is invaluable as it teaches peoples skills that are the essence of a martial arts.

I just want to add a few things about people who are entering Tournaments fights the knockdown, knock out types.
Do you know what these people get up to in their personal lives? Ok if you dont then you are making a judgement on them based on what you see them do in the ring. Martial arts are about how they effect your lives?? I know of some full contact fighters who offer day programmes to under privilged kids etc. They are also loving fathers/parents etc. and have a strong belief in god. How you can compare them to people who go looking for bar fights, I dont think that this is a good analogy.

Also the fact that they are choosing to test themselves in the ring against other willing particpants this shows warrior spirit. ( I dont neccessarily agree with this though) This is better than getting involved in a gang etc.

I have studied in Beijing at one of the Physical education Universities there and I have seen the Sandha people train. They are training in what is essentailly a mixed martial arts format. So again I agree with my sihing that this is not Kung Fu.

Like Sifu has said it comes down to essentially three things in training martial arts
The Sifu
The Method
The Student.

We have an exellent Sifu. Who is at a world class level in my opinion.

In Shaolin Wahnam Kung Fu in that we are learning an art that is steeped in history and tradition and has millenia of research behind from past masters.
so we have fantastic training Methodology

We have some exellent students (and some poor ones like myself ).

Using a systimised training method to reach sparring is the best way forward in any Martial Arts. This allows you to develop skills in a safe arena and
it lets your mind develop at steady pace.


Where just jumping into free sparring does lead to agression and potentail violence. I know I have trained this way in a few arts.

What I find with our Kung Fu is that it is not just limited to the developing of External. There are many fighter I would not wish to fight out there who are "external". But can they say their mind is developed enough to enjoy the time with their family?

To me Shaolin Wahnam Kung Fu is so exellent in the fact that is just not about fighting it is also about the whole fo your life as well!! and the way it infleunces you.

One aspect in Kung Fu is that you develop your mind to be calm and this skill radiates through your life. From driving to just sitting.

Again, Everything comes down to Direct Experience, Give something a try before you can truly judge it. There are skill that are essential in all martial arts or fighting including tournaments (in my opinion). Feelin the Adrenaline dump and your stomach starts churning,you start shaking etc. This happens in tournaments and in fights.

So there could be an argument saying that the Free Flow state of Knockdown sparring allows your mind to have a limited cultivation for fighting?

What do people think?

One last note I am asking this question on the supposition that a good training methodology is used when training and not just random training

Thanks Mark

[George]

Do you know what these people get up to in their personal lives? Ok if you dont then you are making a judgement on them based on what you see them do in the ring.

Yes I am, because they are still the same person, they just present a different side of their personality. I can dislike it if I wish.

I stand by my analogy, in it's original context.

Also the fact that they are choosing to test themselves in the ring against other willing particpants this shows warrior spirit. ( I dont neccessarily agree with this though) This is better than getting involved in a gang etc.

If you don't 'necessarily agree' with it then you should not say it (it probably goes against the 'direct experience' principle you yourself emphasise.) As for the gang thing, you are just adding to my 'bar fight' analogy: the same aggression is being channeled into an different environment.

Again, Everything comes down to Direct Experience, Give something a try before you can truly judge it. There are skill that are essential in all martial arts or fighting including tournaments (in my opinion). Feelin the Adrenaline dump and your stomach starts churning,you start shaking etc. This happens in tournaments and in fights.

I am speaking from direct experience (albeit not the tournament kind). There is no need to get your teeth knocked out getting this experience though. I experienced all the things you list above when I was put against a big guy, each of us given a padded stick in one hand and a boxing glove in the other and told to get on with it . I also experienced it in real fights (although I must point out that the shaking comes _after_ the fight) and I would recommend the padded sticks option any day.

I disagree that free sparing is a useful way of learning skills. It is, however, an invaluable tool of reviewing your training, but you must already have skills before you review them.

Once I get am at free sparing level I fully intend to participate in tournaments (but only in those that _don't_ make you wear gloves). I have no intention of doing it until I have the necessary skills.

So there could be an argument saying that the Free Flow state of Knockdown sparring allows your mind to have a limited cultivation for fighting?

If you hit someone repeatedly then they will eventually learn to block. Or, you could just teach them the block and make them practice it. My point is that there are much better (and less dangerous) ways to cultivate your mind. Shaolin Wahnam with it's structured progression from combat sequences to full sparing is one.


.George.

[Mark A]

Hi Folks,
Just to add a few things,
What was said in my last post I think some of it has been misunderstood so I am going to clarify a few thing and

1) I do emphasise a systimised training method that eventually lead to free sparring.Like I said in the last post it is this arena that allows skills to develop

2) I was trying to give a different spin on the Full contact fighters as I know a few of them and to me they are martial artist. I use the term martial artist as someone who bring skill they learn from their arts into their daily life etc, Discpline, etc

3) I dont neccessarily agree with the full contact fighting or free sparring. Again I have some experience of this and fighting in Vale Tudo ( Not in the ring but training with guys who are in tournament etc ). So having direct experience I added my own comments as a method of training for me. Some people like it tough and it can be a good martial system if you have a good instructor

The reason I posted a lot of this on this thread is that this is my interperetation of Kung Fu and how it has effected me so again these are all personal comments.

Thanks for your time
Mark