How would you handle a slugger? How do you know? How did you get there?

[drunken boxer]

Thought I would share my experience on here and ask for yours for mutual benefit.

Basically, a couple of weeks ago I saw a fight between two men in a nightclub.
It was very typical, the one who got the upper hand used what I would call slugging, brawling or 'windmilling' to win.
By that I mean he just swung one hand after the other, as hard and as fast as he could.
Although they were not technically correct straight punches like a boxer would throw "down the pipe", they were also not the wide haymayker style punches that a lot of people think are common in bar fights.
(In my experience haymakers are not common, not big wide hooking ones at least.)

I watched this and the first thing I thought was that I would still find this type of attack extremely difficult to deal with.

I got my senior brother to attack me in this way in class and that confirmed that I could not deal with it, not even close in fact.

Obviously this is what I plan to focus on from now until such times as I can deal with this sort of attack. If I get in a fight, there is a 90% chance that this is the sort of attack I'll face.
Even if I were to enter a competition fight (which I'm nowhere near) it would still be useful training, as a lot of boxers etc do resort to slugging, many rely on it even.

So I'll let you know how the training goes.

But I would also be interested to hear from anyone who has experience of this. I am not looking to hear about what people think they would do, but rather what they have done.
I can deal with the attack if it is done in a slow, cooperative and non-forceful way. But I got my brother to attack in a way where he had force in his arms up to just before the point of contact and to where he would touch lightly if he could contact, if you see what I mean? Though I could sometimes defend the first couple of punches or more, I could not stop the barrage, nor get a counter in, and eventually he could punch his way in to the target, every time.

So I know lots of techniques to use, but what I am trying to gain and put into practice is the gong ie skill and force to deal with this.
I.e. if someone throws a left or right, I can parry, use Golden Dragon etc usually. But when they really put force in their arms sometimes they can punch right through this.

The main problem though is this: If I know someone will throw 1, or 2, or 3, or 4 punches etc beforehand then I can deal with them, then counter. But if someone throws 4 punches, I can only counter after the 4th. I cannot stop them at the 2nd etc. Therefore at present, any slugger can beat me just by throwing more and more punches.

So its the toughest problem I've had since trying to work out a defence to a boxer's 1-2.
That is one positive thing in my mind at present - there was a time when I thought I would NEVER find a good defence to a 1-2, but eventually I did!
Now it feels like I will never be able to deal with this type of attack - but I hope I am proved wrong again!

Paul

[Antonius]

Hi Paul,

I like "No defense, direct counter." Precious Duck, in a low stance, will stop him. Or a thrust kick.

All the best,

[Charles David]

Feeling Defenseless? No Problem!

Happy Bird is another "No defense, direct counter."


Have fun training this. I'm looking forward to hearing of your success.

Yours,

Chas.

[Markus Kahila]

Precious Duck, in a low stance, will stop him.

- I agree; this is what I teach my students as a basic counter against a barrage of punches.


If you want to include a simple strategy, you can try this:

After engaging, retreat and use your footwork to lure your opponent into following you. Keep your guard for protection. Vary your speed so that he has to pick up his pace to bridge the gap. Then surprise him by stopping his advance with a Precious Duck (use your other hand to guard your head).

You don't have to retreat very far - when you can apply it well, you can do the technique even in a couple of steps, or just by adjusting your footwork and changing stances.

However, please be aware that if you apply force (even external force), this is a destructive counter. I would recommend training it with a partner softly using a palm instead of a fist first.


Best wishes,

[drunken boxer]

Dear brothers many thanks for your advice.

I will try out those things in training tomorrow.

I should have pointed out one particular thing in the fight I saw that caused the person losing a lot of trouble was the lack of space. The bar/dancefloor was packed - not quite like a subway/tube carrage but pretty packed. The person on the receiving end had an experience like when a boxer is trapped in the corner.
So there didn't seem much room for footwork or kicks in this situation, I don't think, though perhaps someone of exceptional agility, force, kicking ability could prove me wrong.

However for me, this difficulty I have is irrespective of if there is space or not, lack of space would make it more difficult, but I have difficulty in both cases therefore I will drill all the techniques you suggested.

There have also been a couple of techniques suggested to me by my instructors/brothers here in London which I'm working on.
The thing I'm finding most difficult is not just finding an appropriate technique, but transitioning from being able to use the technique against a nice slow less-than-full-force/intent sparring attack, to being able to use it against someone who is using force and who is really trying to connect.
I think its down to force, skill and shen.

[drunken boxer]

Dear brothers, I was also thinking that I have seen all of your suggestions being employed successfully:

I like "No defense, direct counter." Precious Duck, in a low stance, will stop him. Or a thrust kick.

My first Sifu used a move with many similarities to Precious Duck as one of his favourite counters to a slugging or also boxing attack.

Happy Bird is another "No defense, direct counter."

When I first started kickboxing (after normal boxing) and I relied on my hands, getting inside and basically slugging, my sparring partners would employ a side kick to stop me on my way in.
When it was done with good timing it was very effective.

After engaging, retreat and use your footwork to lure your opponent into following you. Keep your guard for protection. Vary your speed so that he has to pick up his pace to bridge the gap. Then surprise him by stopping his advance with a Precious Duck (use your other hand to guard your head).

I've just remembered my classmate Max demonstrated this after coming back from the Iron Wire course when you showed it!
I will ask him to go through it with me again!
Which reminds me I wondered if Bong Sau (from Taming the Tiger and the upcoming Wing Choon course) could be employed for this too.

[Markus Kahila]

I should have pointed out one particular thing in the fight I saw that caused the person losing a lot of trouble was the lack of space. The bar/dancefloor was packed - not quite like a subway/tube carrage but pretty packed. The person on the receiving end had an experience like when a boxer is trapped in the corner.

- In this situation also "Beauty Looks at Mirror" to tame multiple attacks and/or sidestepping would be viable options, but they require more skill.

Lack of space or not, "Precious Duck" is a solid, basic-level option. When done well it removes your targets and hits oppontents less proteceted areas with relative ease.

But it's good to remember that this is just one strike - it may or may not be decisive. After performing this, the opponent will probably not fall for it again. But it will decrease his enthuisiasm for an all-out offense.


In any case, if you wish to train against a flurry of strikes, the method is simple: Choose your techniques, and have a partner attack you realistically with a flurry of strikes. First start very slowly, then pick up your speed.


Best wishes,

[Rob-B]

I think this is one of the most relevant situations to consider when training for self-defense.
I still spar for fun against a western boxing opponent and often when there is an oportunity my opponent rushes in with a flurry of punchs which often overwhelms me
Precious Duck has worked extremely well, I have found that I can press my opponent whilst shuffling foward and repeating the pattern. They can still reach with a few jabs so I keep my guard hand over my face
I don`t feel I have enough skill to execute kicks effectively yet, although I can often see openings for a Happy Bird against this kind of attack

[Benedikt]

I like "No defense, direct counter." Precious Duck, in a low stance, will stop him. Or a thrust kick.

All the best,

I find it hard to cover myself properly while using Precious Duck. The head is hard to protect.
I prefer to make use of the disadvatage of the stance of the opponent. That means go for his groin with a kick. While he is paralyzed you can run away or finish him.

Of corse you can use the Precious if you are skillful.

Shaolin greetings

[Benedikt]

Oh I have to add something.

If you want to be effective in sparing it's useful to have a combination of 3 patterns linked together. If you practise this combo every day you will be very fast someday. But don't forget to train gradual. From slow to fast, six harmonies correct.
Boxers train their combos every day hundreds of times, they are skillful in what they do. With our Shaolin Kungfu we have technical advatages over boxing but as long as the Boxer is much more skillful than we are, we will loose the fight.
We have to become skillful with our Kungfu. You don't have to master a hundred patterns.
Sigung tould us about one of our Sitaigungs, (sorry I can't remember) who won every fight just with Single- and Black Tiger.

Don't master all, master your techniques.

[Antonius]

I find it hard to cover myself properly while using Precious Duck. The head is hard to protect.

It's all in the timing.

[Benedikt]

You're right. The timing is very important.

Best whishes

[Andrew]

Sigung tould us about one of our Sitaigungs, (sorry I can't remember) who won every fight just with Single- and Black Tiger.

It may not have been every fight --- but most. Sifu was referring to Sigung Lai Chin Wah. Isn't it great that the essence of Sigung Lai's Kung Fu is being taught at the UK Summer Camp this year

[Martin Do]

Dear Paul Sisook,

Thank you for bringing this thread up for others to benefit from. It certainly is important to have an awareness of this kind of attack, which is the more likely form of attack you would face on the street as you said, or on a dance floor. But I bet you won't get these kind of attack in a ballroom dance floor. Perhaps you should change the dance floor you go to Sisook .

Benedikt Sihing,

I trust you are well and happy dear brother .

That means go for his groin with a kick. While he is paralyzed you can run away or finish him.

Yes, I remember this very clearly at last year's Mountain Retreat . It seemed very effective .

Isn't it great that the essence of Sigung Lai's Kung Fu is being taught at the UK Summer Camp this year

It certainly is Sisook. I am very exited about it .

Best wishes everyone and happy training.

Martin

[drunken boxer]

Thank you for bringing this thread up for others to benefit from. It certainly is important to have an awareness of this kind of attack, which is the more likely form of attack you would face on the street as you said, or on a dance floor. But I bet you won't get these kind of attack in a ballroom dance floor. Perhaps you should change the dance floor you go to Sisook .

Ha ha! Hey don't mess with the ballroom dancers - they mightn't slug as much but their footwork is brilliant!

Actually there is a serious point to that. I already avoid the rougher establishments. The fight I saw actually took part in a really posh club!
But ideally I don't want to have to avoid places just because there are thugs there. I want to go to nice places of course, but I want to know that if a thug comes my way that I can stop him. Thats why I took up martial arts.